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eHam Forums => Mobile Ham => Topic started by: W6UX on September 19, 2010, 02:27:12 PM



Title: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: W6UX on September 19, 2010, 02:27:12 PM
Well I did too good of a job securing the K400 mount.  Now that our trip is over, I want to remove it.  I used green threadlock on the 4 setscrews, and none of them will break loose.  I already partially rounded one setscrew already.

I tried applying a soldering iron tip directly to the setscrews, to the plate they insert into, and also tried to scrape some of the thread lock off where a bit had overflowed.  No dice.

Is there a chemical that will dissolve this stuff or some other trick I can use to break these setscrews free that won't round the inserts?

Thanks,

Jeff, W6UX


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K0BG on September 19, 2010, 04:43:43 PM
I suspect drilling them out would be the best scenario. If you use enough heat to break loose the lock tight, you're going to discolor the paint. You might try lock tight solvent. Even a little bit of is rather expensive, and you have to be darn careful using it around painted surfaces. Good luck.


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: W6UX on September 19, 2010, 07:55:03 PM
Looking for a non-destructive solution; I want to re-use the mount.  Do you have a name for the lock tite solvent?


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: N5VTU on September 19, 2010, 08:17:57 PM
I've successfully used Acetone applied with a cotton swab to remove red Loctite.  As K0BG indicated, you need to be very cautious using a solvent around the auto paint.



Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KI4SDY on September 19, 2010, 10:28:00 PM
The Green Locktite will be impossible to remove without destroying the mount or damaging your paint. Green Locktite is not made to be removed. It is supposed to be permanent. However, it can be removed by heating it to 400 degrees. Good luck with that! :o

If you can't get the mount off and the wife is complaining, you can always sell the vehicle.  ;)

Who told you to use Green Locktite on the mount screws? Was it one of the eHam.net "experts?"  ::)  


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K0BG on September 20, 2010, 06:55:03 AM
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/20-2060&CAWELAID=220227153 (http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/20-2060&CAWELAID=220227153)

Wait till you see the price!


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KB1LKR on September 20, 2010, 07:02:07 PM
Loctite X-NMS solvent is primarily nitromethane [think: Top Fuel Dragster fuel, and, once and long ago on the AM radio: "...SUNDAY, SUNDAY, SUUNDAAAY!!! TOP FUEL ELIMINATORS!!! 200 MPH ROCKET POWERED FUNNY CARS!!! ROUTE 101, EPPING, NEW HAMPSHIRE!!!, IF IT'S TOO LOUD... YOU'REE TOOOO OLD...!!!!" ...but I digress] w/ a bit of toluene. You might try calling a local distributor for a sample.

Lacquer thinner, xylene, toluene, MEK  and/or acetone (particularly) may work,
clear PVC primer (THF & MEK plus a bit of PVC) might even work as a last resort.
Heat is definitely your friend (w/o the solvents!) if you can apply it locally enough, fast enough. 


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KE4DRN on September 20, 2010, 07:07:33 PM
hi Jeff,

Instead of using heat, try cooling the setscrews with
a can of freeze spray.  this will make the threadlock brittle.

73 james


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KF7MBM on September 21, 2010, 03:34:00 AM
If the freeze spray doesn't work and I really wanted to save it, I'd order some of this http://www.eastwood.com/coldshield-thermal-paste.html and use one of those cheap pencil flame butane things.

Michael
PS. Passed my Technician test 9/18 and am still resisting the urge to check every 5 minutes to see if I'm listed yet!


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KE3WD on September 21, 2010, 05:07:48 AM
The OP said that one of the setscrews was "already partially rounded".

If that is the case, I doubt whether any solvent will be able to solve the problem for that particular screw. 

Drilling them out may just be the way to go here.




Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KI4SDY on September 21, 2010, 06:29:04 AM
"Wait till you see the price!

Before you buy it, you need to call the manufacturer and make sure that it will remove green Locktite. It may only remove blue and red Locktite.  ;)

Also, KOBG has previously posted that Locktite acted as an "anti-seize" compound. If that was true, the antenna mount wouldn't be permanently fastened to your vehicle.  ::)




Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K0BG on September 21, 2010, 11:02:54 AM
There are currently about 25 different formulations of Loctite®. Some are OEM, but most aren't. They're used as anti seize (to keep parts from galling like some stainless steels are want to do), as a so-called thread locker, and even in place of a gasket. They're not all cyno acrylics, so it is difficult to determine which solvent will work, if any.

As I said at the onset, and as Clark mentioned, based on the data given, drilling is probably the best solution in this case (if you'll excuse the pun).


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KJ4OBR on September 21, 2010, 11:23:53 AM
Drill them out carefully and re-tap the holes for a slightly larger set screw. You're gonna need to replace them anyway by the time you're done.

73

Dave


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KI4SDY on September 21, 2010, 06:26:31 PM
"There are currently 25 different formulations of Locktite (not at the hardware stores where I shop, there are only three; blue, red and green). They are used as anti-seize-"

The Locktite in question previously was Locktite blue and the Locktite in question here is Locktite green, not the other 23 different variations of Locktite. Locktite blue is not an anti-seize formula, that is why that poster could not remove his NMO wonder mount. Neither is Locktite green. Now this poster can't remove his antenna mount. Unfortunately, we have eHam.net "experts" telling new hams that Locktite is an anti-seize formula. Then we get posts like we have here. Maybe the eHam.net "experts" find it entertaining when a frustrated ham, who followed their advise, tries to remove his antenna mount. Kind of like pulling the wings off of flies. If you don't have good advise, why would you give it?  ::)

Anyway, my congratulations to Dave for giving the best common sense advice we have had so far.  Cheap (just the way I like it), fast and easy!  ;D


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KE3WD on September 21, 2010, 06:40:21 PM
I'd be willing to bet it is way more likely to be the case that an eham poster told someone to use Locktite anti-seize compound and that someone just went out willy-nilly and purchased the first product seen with "Loctite" on it...

 


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KI4SDY on September 21, 2010, 07:17:44 PM
I agree with you; so don't you think it would be a good idea for the responsible eHam.net "expert" to give complete and specific advice, such as the exact product number of the the magical anti-seize Locktite formula (out of the supposed 25) that would work correctly? In addition, in consideration of the fact that he is communicating with a new ham, wouldn't it be a good idea to let the inquirer know what will happen if he uses the most commonly available Locktite formulas; blue, red and green? I would never tell a new ham to use Locktite on an antenna assembly just for the reason you gave.  ;)

It would seem to me that you would not want to use any kind of thread sealant that would interfere with metal to metal contact on an antenna mount anyway, unless it was formulated to increase conductivity, like GB Ox-Guard. I think someone just got caught up defending his expertise after he made an obviously wrong statement.  ::)  
  

Anyway, thanks again Dave for giving the best and most complete answer to the problem!  ;D


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KE3WD on September 22, 2010, 05:12:06 AM
Alan gave that answer first, very early on in this thread. 

My thoughts on the rest of all this is that each ham is the one  holding final responsibility for what they do with any advice given on any internet forum anywhere. 

And I don't know and don't care if the actual exact type of loctite was specified or merely referred to, the person selecting and using that product holds final responsibility as to their actions. 

We all make mistakes. 

We all learn from our mistakes, or at least we should.


73


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KI4SDY on September 22, 2010, 06:40:49 AM
"Alan gave that answer first, very early on his thread."

No, he gave half an answer, as usual, and unfortunately half an answer is not good enough for a new hams. The complete and correct answer was drill out the screws and retap the holes for larger set screws. Thanks again Dave!  ;D

"My thoughts on the rest of all this is that each ham is the one holding final responsibility for what they do with any advice given on any internet forum anywhere."

You might want to talk to your lawyer about that, if you have one (obviously not). If you don't have one, maybe you and KOBG can split the cost, since your engaged in the same activity. I am sure it is only a matter of time until a new ham to sues one of the eHam.net "experts" for some of their less than wonderful "advice." We live in a litigious world and lawsuits over internet information have already occurred.  ;)

"And I don't know and don't care if the exact type of Locktite was specified or merely referred to (neither does KOBG and that is the problem), the person selecting and using that product holds final responsibility as to their actions (until the lawyer sends you a notice of legal action).

After reviewing Locktite's products on the internet I did not find one that was listed as an "anti-seize" formula. They do have a silicone spray like WD40, but we weren't talking about silicone sprays. I think someone gave the wrong information, again!  ::)


"We all make mistakes."

Except eHam.net experts, right?  ;D



Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K3GM on September 22, 2010, 07:31:55 AM
So Vern, what would you do?  You've made 5 posts on this thread alone critical of other's suggestions, but you've offered nothing in the way of help to the original poster.  So I'm sure we'd all be interested in your wisdom regarding this fellow's problem.  I'm not interested in glib comments, or emoticons.  Just tell us what you'd recommend.  Can you do that?


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K0BG on September 22, 2010, 07:46:38 AM
Vern, why don't you go to Loctite's web site, and see for yourself.


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KI4SDY on September 22, 2010, 08:12:41 AM
Like many of the compulsive posters with over 1,000 posts, I had to take you off of "ignore" to read your comment.  ;)

"So Vern, what would you do?"

First, I posted the manufacturer's recommended method of removal from the instructions of using 400 degree heat, but stated that it would destroy the mount and damage paint. Yes, I actually read the instructions before using a product because I am not in the eHam.net "expert" gang that thinks they are the smartest people in the world!  ::)

Second, I stated that I would never recommend using Locktite on an antenna assembly. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of eHam.net "expert" advice.  ;D

Third, when a good and complete suggestion was made by Dave, I did not criticize it, I lauded it, so your assertion is not correct!  :-*

Now it is time to put you, KOBG and KE3WD back on "ignore!"  :-X


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KI4SDY on September 22, 2010, 08:27:16 AM
"Vern, why don't you go to the Locktite's web site and see for yourself."

Why don't you read my posts so I don't have to repeat myself? I already stated that I went to the Locktite site and found nothing listed as an "anti-seize" formula. I challenge you to give us the product number of this "magical" Locktite "anti-seize" formula now!  ;)

I would suggest reading the manufacturer's instructions before making recommendations to new hams regarding Locktite products.  :-[


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K0BG on September 22, 2010, 09:55:09 AM
Well, Vern, you're wrong.

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/products.shtml (http://www.loctiteproducts.com/products.shtml)

The above URL is just their consumer products. They make all manner of OEM adhesives, lubricants, and yes, anti seize compounds. Fact is, I remember using a Loctite product to apply to the various parts of a Corvair engine. It was clearly an anti seize compound made by Loctite.


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: N5VTU on September 22, 2010, 04:40:30 PM
Some examples of Loctite Anti Seize compounds in case anyone cares:

37565
39901
37616
39222
37229
51609
76732
37539


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KI4SDY on September 22, 2010, 07:51:21 PM
Yes, your absolutely right, I was wrong. There are Locktite "anti-seize" products and some of them even appear to be conductive. However, KOBG could not provide the product numbers. They had to be given by someone else.  :-[

So what have we learned? Well, lets look at KOBG's last post.  ;)

"Fact is, I remember using a Locktite product to apply to the various parts of a Corvair engine. It was clearly an anti-seize compound made by Locktite."

In other words, KOBG has never used a Locktite anti-seize compound on antenna mounts, but he is stating that it can be used as such. In other words, a guess based on no actual experience with the particular product for that use. I don't know how far you could transmit on a Covair engine. Such is the information often disseminated by the eHam.net "experts!"

New hams beware!  :o

W3LK, I placed you on "ignore" as a member of the eHam.net "expert" gang long ago, thank goodness!  :P



Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KC8OYE on September 22, 2010, 09:50:02 PM
I have a lot of experience in the automotive world with LockTite products.. Extreme heat.. or drilling are about your only two options for removing any thread locker (including rust)

I think it was mentioned earlier, but welding shops carry this stuff that absorbs heat for making welds on delicate items.. using that with a small torch might get you what you need.

If you know someone with a small oxy-acytlene torch, that would be the better way to go, the faster you can get those screws hot the less time there is for the heat to conduct outwards into things you don't want hot.


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KJ4OBR on September 23, 2010, 10:51:19 AM
I'd still drill and retap. Maybe an hours worth of work (if you take a beverage break)  ;) The set screws are not tempered and are actually pretty soft metal (which is why they seem to strip so quickly even without locktite).

I would worry about changing the temper of the mount material by heating. Plus the heat is going to do a number on the powdercoat/ paint of the mount.

By the time you run around and get everything you need to heat it, do the job, and fix the damage, you could have ordered a new mount from Hong Kong, had it shipped by rowboat and installed on the other car.

73
Dave



I have a lot of experience in the automotive world with LockTite products.. Extreme heat.. or drilling are about your only two options for removing any thread locker (including rust)

I think it was mentioned earlier, but welding shops carry this stuff that absorbs heat for making welds on delicate items.. using that with a small torch might get you what you need.

If you know someone with a small oxy-acytlene torch, that would be the better way to go, the faster you can get those screws hot the less time there is for the heat to conduct outwards into things you don't want hot.



Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K3GM on September 23, 2010, 11:08:35 AM
I'd still drill and retap......

I think the problem with that is the threads in the mount are done before the lip id formed. Once the lip has been rolled over and I don't think the space on the other side of the threads is not deep enough to permit the tap to run all the way thru.


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KJ4OBR on September 23, 2010, 12:18:08 PM
I've drilled and re-tapped an antennex trunk mount and didn't have an issue. If it fits over the lip of a trunk he should have enough space to get the small tap through. If not, get a cheap tap at harbor freight and grind the point off and finish the process with the modified tap. Still less cost, damage, and hassle then trying to heat it.

73
Dave


I'd still drill and retap......

I think the problem with that is the threads in the mount are done before the lip id formed. Once the lip has been rolled over and I don't think the space on the other side of the threads is not deep enough to permit the tap to run all the way thru.


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KE3WD on September 23, 2010, 03:15:37 PM
I select the right drillbit size and don't have a need for a tap. 

Of course, I'm also wondering how someone who claims that they've put someone else on "ignore" can then answer successive posts of that supposedly ignored poster...

73 all


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: WG8Z on September 23, 2010, 06:51:12 PM
From my experience on removing loctited set screws.
Best shot, Left Hand twist drill bit,works most of the time. Heat from drilling usually softens up the locktite and the left rotation more then likely brings out the setscrew...If not,  proper sized EZ-out,when that fails redrill and use a bottoming tap....
Have fun.  :)


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K5LXP on September 23, 2010, 08:08:31 PM
> In other words, KOBG has never used a Locktite anti-seize compound on antenna mounts,

That's OK Alan, don't feel bad.

I don't use RG-8X on my mag mounts and I ended up on the "ignore" list too.

Looks like we have a new guest, W3LK just got inducted!  Very flattering company indeed.

I wonder if an impact wrench might do any good.  I know when I'm working on my harley that's about the only way to get some of the hardware out due to dissimilar metals (cad plated bolts in aluminum alloy) being in contact for a while.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K9PU on September 26, 2010, 03:43:36 PM
Sorry, you're screwed.  Wrong stuff for removable little screws, good for big stuff.  Locktite recommends extreme heat, well over 150 Degrees C.  Some chemicals can actually make it stronger.  Oil is the only thing that makes it weaker and that by only 92% over 1000 hours.

Check out Locktite's site.  Pick the removable stuff next time.

Drill time. 

Scott


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: W6SZG on September 27, 2010, 03:35:26 PM
Set screws are hardened steel.  You will go through several bits before they are all drilled out.  Buy the best USA bit you can find.  If you are near a good industrical supplier a left hand bit would be worth trying.   Carbide bits work well but not in a hand drill, it will break for sure and they cost.  I like the cheapo butane torch with the tiny flame idea the best.  The sets of stuck screw removers might get the rounded one out after heat.  Make sure you use good USA manufactured allen wrenches that fit tight.  An oversized or metric allen a bit larger might also work on the rounded set screw.  These are all the tricks used on old rusty rifles I work on.  Never heard of or used Green loctite.  Go blue next time.


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K0BG on September 27, 2010, 04:52:37 PM
Actually Spencer, in this case they are not hardened. If you really analyze the K400 mount series, you'd realize just how cheaply made they are. The material looks like aluminum, but in reality it isn't much more than cheap pot metal.


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: K3GM on September 27, 2010, 08:12:22 PM
Drill it out and toss it.  A K400 mount can be found for $37.00


Title: RE: Need advice - can't break thread-lock loose from setscrews (K400 mount)
Post by: KI4SDY on September 29, 2010, 07:30:22 AM
The melting point of pot metal is 419 degrees. The melting point of aluminum is 660 degrees. Locktite's instructions say you must heat green locktite to 400 degrees to remove it. There is a good chance that heating the screws to the point of releasing the Locktite will bubble or melt the mount, along with any other low melting point parts.

The best advice came from Dave. Drill out the screws and re-tap.  ;D