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eHam Forums => Computers And Software => Topic started by: W8JX on September 21, 2011, 05:01:02 PM



Title: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 21, 2011, 05:01:02 PM
Been doing some reading and it seems that Microsoft going to require a major BIOS change on all new PC's and Tablets certified for Windows 8 that will prevent the installation of another OS, even older version of Windows, on the PC. In effect locking out Linux too and tightening Microsoft's grip on PC market. Those holding out for Windows 8 for PC upgrades might reconsider. 


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: KE4DRN on September 21, 2011, 06:50:21 PM
hi

we can always flash the bios back to a previous level
to run other o/s.

73 james


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 21, 2011, 07:01:47 PM
Been doing some reading and it seems that Microsoft going to require a major BIOS change on all new PC's and Tablets certified for Windows 8 that will prevent the installation of another OS, even older version of Windows, on the PC. In effect locking out Linux too and tightening Microsoft's grip on PC market. Those holding out for Windows 8 for PC upgrades might reconsider. 

"Prevent installation of another OS" may be an overstatement. According to this description (http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/09/windows-8-secure-boot-will-complicate-linux-installs.ars) of Windows 8 Secure Boot,

  • - This could pose a problem for Linux users, though in practice most can just change UEFI settings to disable secure boot before installing the open-source OS. But users will have to depend on hardware vendors to make this option possible in the first place.
  • - For many (and hopefully most) Windows 8 machines, this means that users have a good chance of successfully entering the UEFI settings interface to turn off secure boot. But this will depend on the hardware vendor.
  • - As Microsoft notes in the Building Windows 8 blog, “We will continue to support the legacy BIOS interface.” However, machines using UEFI instead of BIOS “will have significantly richer capabilities” including faster boot times and greater security."
  • - Ultimately, the Windows 8 changes aren’t likely to wipe out Linux dual-boot scenarios, but they could restrict the types of hardware that will allow them. PC users who would boot two operating systems tend to be highly technical, though, so we expect they’ll find the necessary workarounds.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 21, 2011, 07:10:36 PM
hi

we can always flash the bios back to a previous level
to run other o/s.

73 james

It is not going to be that simple. The nature and function of BIOS will see a major change and it will also actually check for digital signatures on boot up and with some devices too and cannot be flashed out. This is no bandaid mod.  Post above does not address that for a WIN 8 certification as it stands not, it cannot be easily bypassed as suggested above. They put a lot of thought into this. There was a time when PC makers had to pay MS to not put Window on a PC. This is a new angle.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 21, 2011, 07:16:49 PM
They put a lot of thought into this. There was a time when PC makers had to pay MS to not put Window on a PC. This is a new angle.

Microsoft played a lot of hardball before the Justice Department finally woke up. The practice of "tying" is a giant red flag in the anti-trust world; we'll see just how far they try to go...


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 21, 2011, 07:27:03 PM
They put a lot of thought into this. There was a time when PC makers had to pay MS to not put Window on a PC. This is a new angle.

Microsoft played a lot of hardball before the Justice Department finally woke up. The practice of "tying" is a giant red flag in the anti-trust world; we'll see just how far they try to go...

Well the timeline on last restriction ran out recently for MS and they are kinda free to bend the rules again.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: N0NB on September 22, 2011, 05:52:29 AM
This would not seem so onerous if Microsoft, like Apple, sold Windows as a tied part of their own hardware.  Instead the ostensibly independent OEMs have become tied at the hip (or some other body part) to MS and will jump when MS says, "Jump!"  What will likely happen, at least for the short term, is that MS will subsidize the OEMs so that hardware capable of loading only Win8 will be cheaper than bare hardware that can load any OS.  After a period of time the OEMs will declare that sales of bare hardware do not justify its continued offering and will drop bare hardware from the market.  This will be a convenient excuse for any anti-trust concerns.

Lather, rinse, repeat.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: KF7CG on September 22, 2011, 08:44:55 AM
Second verse of this will come a couple of years down the road when the same microcode that checks for valid Win8 signatures compares them against the current date and decides that the Win* license has expired and must be renewed. Repeat until Operating System by the month chanrge, the same for the "Cloud."

KF7CG


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 22, 2011, 11:22:11 AM
Second verse of this will come a couple of years down the road when the same microcode that checks for valid Win8 signatures compares them against the current date and decides that the Win* license has expired and must be renewed. Repeat until Operating System by the month chanrge, the same for the "Cloud."

KF7CG

Microsoft actually wanted to do this about 10 years ago and sell yearly licenses for OS. Never made it out of starting gates back then.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: N0NB on September 22, 2011, 12:42:09 PM
With people becoming accustomed to paying for "cloud" services on an ongoing basis, the time may be right.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: G0GQK on September 22, 2011, 01:15:41 PM
Easy answer, just keep on using XP, Vista and Windows 7.
If you don't buy it Mr G wil be stuck up a gum tree. You don't have to keep spending money for the same thing with a different name and a few new gizmo's. In a few years time you won't have the money to waste.

G0GQK


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 22, 2011, 01:57:18 PM
And something else I forgot to mention, Win 8 is primarily for a touch screen Tablet OS by design that will work on desktop with a mouse as a secondary platform. It seems MS is determined to bring bloat to tablets too.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 22, 2011, 05:29:56 PM
And something else I forgot to mention, Win 8 is primarily for a touch screen Tablet OS by design that will work on desktop with a mouse as a secondary platform. It seems MS is determined to bring bloat to tablets too.

It's an overstatement to claim that Windows 8 is primarily for touch-enabled (Metro) applications. Windows 8 is largely a functional superset of Windows 7. As is stated in in the Windows 8 Developer Preview (http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/E/4/1E455D53-C382-4A39-BA73-55413F183333/Windows_Developer_Preview-Windows8_guide.pdf),

"The next version of Windows (codenamed Windows 8 ) is being designed to build on what is great about Windows 7, delivering richer security features, faster startup, and longer battery life that runs on a wider choice of devices and chipsets. Windows 8 extends these fundamental features with a new touch-optimized interface. Windows 8 also provides the platform to create a whole new generation of full-screen apps that are based on modern web standards and available through the new Windows Store."

As expected, it's Embrace and Extend.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 22, 2011, 05:52:02 PM
And something else I forgot to mention, Win 8 is primarily for a touch screen Tablet OS by design that will work on desktop with a mouse as a secondary platform. It seems MS is determined to bring bloat to tablets too.

It's an overstatement to claim that Windows 8 is primarily for touch-enabled (Metro) applications. Windows 8 is largely a functional superset of Windows 7. As is stated in in the Windows 8 Developer Preview (http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/E/4/1E455D53-C382-4A39-BA73-55413F183333/Windows_Developer_Preview-Windows8_guide.pdf),

"The next version of Windows (codenamed Windows 8 ) is being designed to build on what is great about Windows 7, delivering richer security features, faster startup, and longer battery life that runs on a wider choice of devices and chipsets. Windows 8 extends these fundamental features with a new touch-optimized interface. Windows 8 also provides the platform to create a whole new generation of full-screen apps that are based on modern web standards and available through the new Windows Store."

As expected, it's Embrace and Extend.

It not a over statement

The spin you quoted tries to suggest otherwise but insiders that have played with it state it IS NOT a Win7 remake (Win 7 is repackaged Vista) but rather a all new OS and indeed focuses on a Tablet and not desktop. MS recently gave out a few thousand tablets to developers that Win 8 beta was preloaded on for evaluation and feed back.  It will run on a desktop but MS wants in Tablet wars bad and rather than making a lean tablet only OS they are making next Windows for tablet as primary function and added PC support too.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 23, 2011, 09:46:17 AM
The spin you quoted tries to suggest otherwise but insiders that have played with it state it IS NOT a Win7 remake (Win 7 is repackaged Vista) but rather a all new OS and indeed focuses on a Tablet and not desktop.

Windows 8 is not an all new OS, it's another MinWin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MinWin) instantiation, a descendant of Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008. See Windows 8 Server Developer Preview (http://www.zdnet.co.uk/reviews/server-os/2011/09/14/windows-8-server-developer-preview-40093932/), for example. Do you seriously think that Microsoft could have created an "all new OS", endowed it will all of its predecessors' functionality, and gotten it running only a few years after launching Window 7?


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 23, 2011, 11:23:00 AM
The spin you quoted tries to suggest otherwise but insiders that have played with it state it IS NOT a Win7 remake (Win 7 is repackaged Vista) but rather a all new OS and indeed focuses on a Tablet and not desktop.



Windows 8 is not an all new OS, it's another MinWin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MinWin) instantiation, a descendant of Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008. See Windows 8 Server Developer Preview (http://www.zdnet.co.uk/reviews/server-os/2011/09/14/windows-8-server-developer-preview-40093932/), for example. Do you seriously think that Microsoft could have created an "all new OS", endowed it will all of its predecessors' functionality, and gotten it running only a few years after launching Window 7?

It is a new OS. MS has a pattern for many years now to make a new OS then tweak it with a new release and then start over. Win2000 was new, XP was a tweak of 2000.  Vista was a new direction, Win7 was a tweak.  Win8 is a new direction again. Sure it will run on a desktop top but MS realizes that laptops (and maybe Desktops) could be on life support in a few years or so as Tablets evolve so Win8's primary focus is on Tablet not desktop as the new frontier.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA4HA on September 23, 2011, 12:11:47 PM
It is a new OS. MS has a pattern for many years now to make a new OS then tweak it with a new release and then start over. Win2000 was new, XP was a tweak of 2000.  Vista was a new direction, Win7 was a tweak.  Win8 is a new direction again.

Let's see, Win95... basically the divorce from IBM and OS/2 (just when OS/2 4.0 Warp was getting really good).
Win 2000... Not one of their best products
XP... Using it on this computer with no plans on upgrading
Vista... In another time and another places there would be people "under the sword" for that one.
Windows7... Decent, definitely not Vista

MS seems to do one right, then wrong, then right, then wrong. I will wait for MS9 or just migrate completely over to whatever version of Android is running at that time (with the desert naming scheme it will probably be "RumCake").


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W4PC on September 23, 2011, 12:19:34 PM
It is a new OS. MS has a pattern for many years now to make a new OS then tweak it with a new release and then start over. Win2000 was new, XP was a tweak of 2000.  Vista was a new direction, Win7 was a tweak.  Win8 is a new direction again.

Let's see, Win95... basically the divorce from IBM and OS/2 (just when OS/2 4.0 Warp was getting really good).
Win 2000... Not one of their best products
XP... Using it on this computer with no plans on upgrading
Vista... In another time and another places there would be people "under the sword" for that one.
Windows7... Decent, definitely not Vista

MS seems to do one right, then wrong, then right, then wrong. I will wait for MS9 or just migrate completely over to whatever version of Android is running at that time (with the desert naming scheme it will probably be "RumCake").

Acutally the genology is

DOS -> Windows 1 -> Windows 2 -> Windows 3-> Windows 3.11 -> Windows 95 -> Windows 98->Windows Me

OS/2 3.0 (not warp) became Windows NT 3.1 after Balmer yelled at the IBM UK guys -> Windows NT 4 -> Windows 2000 - Windows XP -> Windows Vista (yuck) -> Windows 7-> Windows 8

Dave Culter from DEC designed OS/2 3 - Windows NT 3.1 in 1988 after Bill hired him from DEC.



Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: KA3NXN on September 23, 2011, 12:34:28 PM
W4PC
What happened to NT 3.5?

Every since they produced vista I went the way of Linux and Mac. You thought that MS would have learned from that abomination that they produced 10 years ago called me. Apparently not. No more ms products in my home.  In fact I the only windows in my house are the ones that keep the cold weather out. Hi Hi!!! I have 4 Macs & 4 Linux boxes including our IRLP node. I love it. I have not seen anywhere, where I couldn't do anything that I wanted to do with the systems that I have. No more windoze in our home.

Jaime-KA3NXN


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 23, 2011, 12:41:02 PM
Actually the IBM split was sooner. They split long before Warp OS/2 3.x.  The split was mostly over protected mode. IBM was stuck on optimizing OS/2 for a 286 class system and MS wanted to move forward to 32 bit support. (though it took a while to get there main stream) MS left and IBM pressed on with OS2 1.x. Shortly after split IBM still had right to Windows code and included it with OS2 2.x to run in a VM. I actually used OS2 for may years and did not move fully to Windows until late in NT4 and then Win2000. Win2000 was a very solid OS and not bloated and hard on resources. Bloat has grown since.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 23, 2011, 12:45:59 PM
Acutally the genology is

DOS -> Windows 1 -> Windows 2 -> Windows 3-> Windows 3.11 -> Windows 95 -> Windows 98->Windows Me

OS/2 3.0 (not warp) became Windows NT 3.1 after Balmer yelled at the IBM UK guys -> Windows NT 4 -> Windows 2000 - Windows XP -> Windows Vista (yuck) -> Windows 7-> Windows 8

Dave Culter from DEC designed OS/2 3 - Windows NT 3.1 in 1988 after Bill hired him from DEC.

You mean Dave Cutler, who developed VMS at DEC.

Where's the (yuck) after Windows Me? (http://xkcd.com/323/) It's at least as deserving as Vista.

Hopefully your genealogy will put a stop to the "Windows 8 is a new OS" BS.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 23, 2011, 01:19:03 PM

Where's the (yuck) after Windows Me? (http://xkcd.com/323/) It's at least as deserving as Vista.


ME was quirky at best but there was nothing fundamentally wrong with Vista. It was simply ahead of the hardware when it rolled out. (lack of memory first and fore most and CPU power) There was also, thanks of Dell, a lot of computers that flooded market that were not fully Vista complaint at chip set level. This all gave Vista a bad name. If 32 bit was run with at least 2.5gig of memory and a decent CPU and good chipset it was very solid. My daughter have two dual core Vista 32 bit machines with 2.5g and in over three years no reloads or major crashes and they played a lot of games and serious office apps too.  I have a 64 bit Vista machine with 8 gig of memory, It is close to 4 years old and rock solid. One reason Win 7 is doing so well is hardware has evolved too and was ready this time. It took a while for XP to mature through hardware and code too.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 23, 2011, 02:29:03 PM
ME was quirky at best but there was nothing fundamentally wrong with Vista.

Vista's implementation of UAC was far too user-hostile. One of the engineers on the Vista team described their attitude to me as: "so you want an OS with real security, eh?" They purposely put the security mechanism in the user's face.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 23, 2011, 04:02:49 PM
ME was quirky at best but there was nothing fundamentally wrong with Vista.

Vista's implementation of UAC was far too user-hostile. One of the engineers on the Vista team described their attitude to me as: "so you want an OS with real security, eh?" They purposely put the security mechanism in the user's face.

If Vista had been launched with more strict hardware and memory requirements it would of had a different launch. Ideally MS should have waited another 6 to 9 month to launch it at very least because hardware was not ready. There was Vista Compatible and Vista Compliant. Compatible meant it should run but there could/would be issues. Compliant meant hardware/chipset was fully supporting Vista. Dell rushed to jump gun and flooded market with "compatible" systems hoping to get a leg up. Others like HP waited for compliant chip sets. Between Dell jumping gun with improper hardware and too low a memory requirement at launch, Vista got a bad rap. Since they started shipping Vista machines with service pack one, pretty much everyone had proper chipset and Vista had been tweaked too. (Even Win7 was helped a lot with service pack 1)

Even today when you buy a new Dell, while hardware may be new, usually it is several months behind power curve and not on cutting edge on motherboards and chipsets because it is cheaper to build that way and average consumer does not know any better.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: KT0DD on September 24, 2011, 11:01:59 AM
"Windows 8 is not an all new OS, it's another MinWin instantiation, a descendant of Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008. See Windows 8 Server Developer Preview, for example. Do you seriously think that Microsoft could have created an "all new OS", endowed it will all of its predecessors' functionality, and gotten it running only a few years after launching Window 7?"

AA6YQ,  Hasn't SkyNet become self aware yet? lol...Developing a new software system doesn't seem so daunting when the engineers can simply assign most of the designing tasks to the very machines that will use the new software. Manpower and time will be reduced exponentially.....  :)


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 24, 2011, 11:15:03 AM
Do you seriously think that Microsoft could have created an "all new OS", endowed it will all of its predecessors' functionality, and gotten it running only a few years after launching Window 7?"


MS does a major upgrade change every two releases.  Win2000 major, Win XP minor tweak, Vista major, Win 7minor tweak. Win 8 will be a major change. No friggin way you are going to get Windows to run on a tablet well without major major changes and MS is going to push it as a tablet OS.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 24, 2011, 11:33:15 AM
AA6YQ,  Hasn't SkyNet become self aware yet? lol

Until we understand how humans achieve sentience, we'll remain unable to even simulate sentience with machines, much less emulate it.

...Developing a new software system doesn't seem so daunting when the engineers can simply assign most of the designing tasks to the very machines that will use the new software.

There are applications that can implement software from well-defined specifications, e.g. parser generators and model-driven code generators. There are applications that can critique a design, e.g. model checkers that assess modularity or identify opportunities for refactoring. There are applications that can generate executable code that implements "behavior" specified in the form of a state transition diagram.  But even in combination, these capabilities do not perform design. Ongoing work in genetic algorithms may someday yield an application that given an initial design and a comprehensive set of tests yields a design that is improved in some specified set of dimensions -- like performance or resource consumption -- and still passes the test set; until there's a way to reliably transform specifications into to comprehensive test set, however, such an application would not be broadly useful.

Ray Kurzweil (http://www.singularity.com/) argues that since our rate of progress is increasing exponentially, problems like the above will be solved more rapidly then our intuition would indicate. We'll see...


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 24, 2011, 11:40:23 AM
Do you seriously think that Microsoft could have created an "all new OS", endowed it will all of its predecessors' functionality, and gotten it running only a few years after launching Window 7?"


MS does a major upgrade change every two releases.  Win2000 major, Win XP minor tweak, Vista major, Win 7minor tweak. Win 8 will be a major change. No friggin way you are going to get Windows to run on a tablet well without major major changes and MS is going to push it as a tablet OS.

Oh, I see. Since you don't understand how Microsoft could use MinWin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MinWin) to enable Windows 8 to target tablets, you conclude that they must have started from scratch.

Ignorance is rarely a reliable foundation on which to base conclusions.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 24, 2011, 11:41:40 AM
Read up on IBM's Watson being able to play Jeopardy and win. It took them a few years of additional programing to get to to win. It had trouble with logic for correct choice and understanding questions but they whipped it but it still does not "think"


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 24, 2011, 11:43:26 AM
Oh, I see. Since you don't understand how Microsoft could use MinWin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MinWin) to enable Windows 8 to target tablets, you conclude that they must have started from scratch.

New every two. It will be a major overhaul like 2000 and Vista was.


Ignorance is rarely a reliable foundation on which to base conclusions.

You seem to think so.



The biggest change with 7 was 64 bit became main stream during its life cycle. Also MS tried mini before (ie CE) and that never was a big success.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 24, 2011, 12:24:51 PM
Read up on IBM's Watson being able to play Jeopardy and win. It took them a few years of additional programing to get to to win. It had trouble with logic for correct choice and understanding questions but they whipped it but it still does not "think"

I am familiar with Watson's underlying technology. It is based on search; the next time Jeopardy reruns the Watson episode, try typing each question verbatim into Google and see what happens. Search is a task that falls into the category of embarassingly parallel, which is why machines can be made to excel at it. While recall is certainly necessary for sentience, it's far from sufficient.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 24, 2011, 12:29:39 PM
Oh, I see. Since you don't understand how Microsoft could use MinWin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MinWin) to enable Windows 8 to target tablets, you conclude that they must have started from scratch.

New every two. It will be a major overhaul like 2000 and Vista was.

Your original position was "It's a new OS". Now you're describing it as a "major overhaul". Do you not understand the difference between these two characterizations, or have you changed your position?



Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 24, 2011, 01:31:37 PM
Oh, I see. Since you don't understand how Microsoft could use MinWin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MinWin) to enable Windows 8 to target tablets, you conclude that they must have started from scratch.

New every two. It will be a major overhaul like 2000 and Vista was.

Your original position was "It's a new OS". Now you're describing it as a "major overhaul". Do you not understand the difference between these two characterizations, or have you changed your position?



No, major overhaul is basically a new OS and spin on things. Because of backward compatibility OS can never be 100% new as some parts must be maintained but it can get a serious overhaul and get a new kernel.  Win2000 was new concept, XP a tweak. Vista was a new direction but retained some old parts for compatibility only. 7 has a new GUI and a few tweaks to make better use of memory but it is basically Vista and while Vista mostly shipped in 32 bit flavor, Win 7 mostly shipped in 64 bit flavor. Cycle repeats and time for a major overhaul or "new" OS for new ever 2.   


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on September 24, 2011, 03:08:07 PM
Oh, I see. Since you don't understand how Microsoft could use MinWin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MinWin) to enable Windows 8 to target tablets, you conclude that they must have started from scratch.

New every two. It will be a major overhaul like 2000 and Vista was.

Your original position was "It's a new OS". Now you're describing it as a "major overhaul". Do you not understand the difference between these two characterizations, or have you changed your position?



No, major overhaul is basically a new OS and spin on things. Because of backward compatibility OS can never be 100% new as some parts must be maintained but it can get a serious overhaul and get a new kernel.  Win2000 was new concept, XP a tweak. Vista was a new direction but retained some old parts for compatibility only. 7 has a new GUI and a few tweaks to make better use of memory but it is basically Vista and while Vista mostly shipped in 32 bit flavor, Win 7 mostly shipped in 64 bit flavor. Cycle repeats and time for a major overhaul or "new" OS for new ever 2.  

You either don't understand the difference between a new OS and "a major overhaul", or you can't bring yourself to admit that Windows 8 is not "a new OS" as you have repeatedly claimed here.

Windows 8 is built on MinWin, like Vista and Windows 7. See this article (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windows-8-MinWin-Evolution-from-Windows-7-215234.shtml), for example.



Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: K0JEG on September 24, 2011, 06:18:33 PM
Been doing some reading and it seems that Microsoft going to require a major BIOS change on all new PC's and Tablets certified for Windows 8 that will prevent the installation of another OS, even older version of Windows, on the PC. In effect locking out Linux too and tightening Microsoft's grip on PC market. Those holding out for Windows 8 for PC upgrades might reconsider. 

Just like cell phones, they'll be "rooted" and "jailbroken" in no time.

(begin rant) Seems to me the holy grail of product manufacturing is to do everything possible to keep the end user from being able to do any modifications to the product. Apparently the collective ego of the modern company is unable to cope with the backyard tinkerer. Have you looked at the modern automobile engine? There's two hoods (bonnets): The one that you open up to change the oil and the second one over all the metal parts. Two reasons for this: 1) they don't want you to touch anything 'lest you mess it up, and 2) They don't want you to notice how the engine block is the same casting as the '75 Caprice Classic you drove in high school.

When you look at the spaghetti code on top of spaghetti code that Windows has become, I think they really have to lock everyone out just because of embarrassment. Windows 7 is fairly good, but I don't have much of anything installed since I use Ubuntu Linux (with it's own set of problems... looking at moving on to Mint next) for everything except Win specific applications.

The one bright spot continues to be the chip makers. Mostly due to having real competition they just keep getting better and better, hiding all the bloat of modern software. Someone in the thread mentioned "Visa capable" vs "Vista ready" for a lot of the complaints, but when I have free OS that has a UI every bit as pretty as Aero Glass and can run circles on "Visa capable" hardware (that wasn't "capable" of running Aero), I have to wonder what is wrong with Windows, especially when we really aren't doing anything more with our PCs than we used to, except decoding Flash video...


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on September 24, 2011, 06:23:49 PM
Just like cell phones, they'll be "rooted" and "jailbroken" in no time.

I am not rooting for Microsoft but this will be tougher than a cell phone to crack. I am sure they have done their homework.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: WA6MJE on October 04, 2011, 10:09:07 AM
I think the MS slogan is "just when we get it right, throw it away and start over." I have experienced this over and over since windows 3.1.  I hate the thought of Windows 8, having been stuck with Vista for awhile.  If the MS focus is tablets, then good luck to them. I just bought a new ASUS transformer tablet with the Android OS and it is excellent. MS has to catch up with that.  I stick with Windows because there are some must have applications I cannot get on Linux.  My hope and dream is that as Android/Linux matures one day I can move away from MS forever.  I have no problems with Windows 7, I just hate having them abandon it after the pubic did five years of beta (or alpha) testing for them.  I just installed 7 on an old HP laptop that had Vista on it,  and 7 solved all the problems.  There was nearly a gigabyte of upgrades to the Win 7 on their website that took the better part of a day to download and install. With Windows 8 we start all over from square one.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on October 04, 2011, 06:32:39 PM
The major problem with Andriod OS (like Apple OS too) is that it cannot multitask. Actually Blackberrys QNX OS on playbook is only tablet OS that can right now.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on October 04, 2011, 08:27:13 PM
The major problem with Andriod OS (like Apple OS too) is that it cannot multitask. Actually Blackberrys QNX OS on playbook is only tablet OS that can right now.

Android is a multi-tasking operating system. Here is a description (http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/04/multitasking-android-way.html) from one of its developers. Google "Android Multitasking" for additional information on the topic.

When attempting to escape from a deep hole, W8JX, the first step is to stop digging.

   


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on October 04, 2011, 09:09:23 PM
The major problem with Andriod OS (like Apple OS too) is that it cannot multitask. Actually Blackberrys QNX OS on playbook is only tablet OS that can right now.

Android is a multi-tasking operating system. Here is a description (http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/04/multitasking-android-way.html) from one of its developers. Google "Android Multitasking" for additional information on the topic.

When attempting to escape from a deep hole, W8JX, the first step is to stop digging.
  

In "theory" it is but in current application it is not. Currently QNX is only true multitasking tablet OS. It was built as such from day one. Try running two or more separate video streams on a Andriod or Apple or have it play a HD video on TV while you use tablet for something else. (a Playbook with QNX can) I have used all tablet OSes and know their limitations. Also Android has another design weakness is that it is not easy to actually kill a task, you merely place it in a inactive state in background but memory foot print remains until you reboot. There is a few utilities out there to try to band-aid fix it but it is a design problem. Because Andriod was born as a phone OS it still has limitations. Granted Honeycomb is a attempt at helped but still has baggage. QNX was never designed for a smart phone at conception or the limitations of one. BlackBerry, which owns QNX now, will be porting it to a new generation of smart phones after first of year or so but its roots are in a tablet.

Before you accuse some one of digging a hole, take a closer look at one you are digging for yourself.

Also, Androids future is a little in question now because while it was open source it is owned by Google and now that Google is buying Motorola and getting directly into phone business, other phone and tablet maker will be looking to depend less on android in future and not butter Google's bread when they make phones too.  


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on October 05, 2011, 12:47:02 AM
The major problem with Andriod OS (like Apple OS too) is that it cannot multitask. Actually Blackberrys QNX OS on playbook is only tablet OS that can right now.

Android is a multi-tasking operating system. Here is a description (http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/04/multitasking-android-way.html) from one of its developers. Google "Android Multitasking" for additional information on the topic.

When attempting to escape from a deep hole, W8JX, the first step is to stop digging.
  

In "theory" it is but in current application it is not. Currently QNX is only true multitasking tablet OS. It was built as such from day one. Try running two or more separate video streams on a Andriod or Apple or have it play a HD video on TV while you use tablet for something else. (a Playbook with QNX can)


The fact that two specific tasks cannot run simultaneously does not mean that Android does not support multitasking. Would you claim that Windows cannot multitask because it cannot simultaneously run two tasks that attempt to open the same serial port? Of course not. If a video task is so consumptive of resources that when that task runs, no other user task can run, does that mean that Android is not a multitasking system? Of course not.

Android is built on the Linux kernel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)), which clearly supports multitasking.

I have a Droid 1 (running Android 2.3), a Droid Bionic (running Android 2.3) and a Thinkpad Tablet (running Android 3.2). All of these systems include a task manager that displays a list of running tasks. Each can simultaneously update my moving position on a map, display my RSS feeds, sync my calender, and take a picture. Your claim above that Android cannot multitask "in current application" is ludicrous.

I have used all tablet OSes and know their limitations. Also Android has another design weakness is that it is not easy to actually kill a task, you merely place it in a inactive state in background but memory foot print remains until you reboot. There is a few utilities out there to try to band-aid fix it but it is a design problem. Because Andriod was born as a phone OS it still has limitations. Granted Honeycomb is a attempt at helped but still has baggage. QNX was never designed for a smart phone at conception or the limitations of one. BlackBerry, which owns QNX now, will be porting it to a new generation of smart phones after first of year or so but its roots are in a tablet.

Android is built on Linux, which was not "born as a phone OS". Its multitasking limitations are driven by the need to minimize resource and power consumption. As available memory continues to increase (the Bionic has 1GB of RAM!) and battery power density improves, these limitations will gradually disappear; IOS is on the same trajectory.

RIM will likely follow Palm into the ground; they have lost all momentum and credibility, and are unlikely to be saved by the QNX Hail Mary.

Also, Androids future is a little in question now because while it was open source it is owned by Google and now that Google is buying Motorola and getting directly into phone business, other phone and tablet maker will be looking to depend less on android in future and not butter Google's bread when they make phones too.  

Google bought Motorola to use their patent portfolio as a weapon in their escalating patent war with Microsoft; for that reason, Samsung, HTC, and other Android-using mobile handset manufacturers are publicly supporting the transaction (http://software2tech.com/2011/08/15/google-to-acquire-motorola-mobility-htc-samsung-lg-sony-ericsson-keyman-support-of-the-acquisition/). Yes, Google will have to be careful to not give Motorola an unfair advantage with respect to other manufacturers. However, those other manufacturers have no competitive alternative to Android in their competition with the iPhone and IOS -- unless you believe that Microsoft and Nokia can bring the Windows Phone OS back from the dead; as Jobs once said, tying two big rocks together makes them sink even faster...


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: K9MHZ on October 05, 2011, 10:39:11 AM
It's true that with Windows 8 Microsoft wants to replace the traditional PC BIOS with something they call UEFI - Unified Extensible Firmware Interface.
The biggest reason behind this change is to improve boot times. Using UEFI they can shave 20 seconds off the process and go from cold start to usable PC desktop in 10 seconds.
However, even Microsoft's own demos for UEFI show a "Choose an operating system" screen. Granted, it only shows WIndows 8 and Windows 7, but this a Microsoft demo we are talking about.
Bottom line, until Windows 8 moves beyond developer preview and closer to an actual release anything can happen, but I don't think there is going to be a 'lockout' of alternate OSes.

We'll see.



Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on October 05, 2011, 12:23:01 PM
The fact that two specific tasks cannot run simultaneously does not mean that Android does not support multitasking. Would you claim that Windows cannot multitask because it cannot simultaneously run two tasks that attempt to open the same serial port? Of course not. If a video task is so consumptive of resources that when that task runs, no other user task can run, does that mean that Android is not a multitasking system? Of course not.

Android is built on the Linux kernel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)), which clearly supports multitasking.

I have a Droid 1 (running Android 2.3), a Droid Bionic (running Android 2.3) and a Thinkpad Tablet (running Android 3.2). All of these systems include a task manager that displays a list of running tasks. Each can simultaneously update my moving position on a map, display my RSS feeds, sync my calender, and take a picture. Your claim above that Android cannot multitask "in current application" is ludicrous.

No your attempt to claim it is pointless. I have a son in his mid 20'S and he is very hard core Android and is the first to admit it cannot multitask and is frustrated by it.  Your attempt to compare it to windows sharing a com port is very very lame. This is a virtual resource issue not a multitasking issue. Android may be based on Linux (as OS2 was too) but it did not take a lot of it's features forward because of lack or resources to use them and to keep code small. IT CANNOT MULTITASK. It can only do very very limited COOPERATIVE multitasking of a few select tasks. It cannot PRE-EMPTIVE (true multitask) apps. QNX is only tablet OS that can.

I have used all tablet OSes and know their limitations. Also Android has another design weakness is that it is not easy to actually kill a task, you merely place it in a inactive state in background but memory foot print remains until you reboot. There is a few utilities out there to try to band-aid fix it but it is a design problem. Because Andriod was born as a phone OS it still has limitations. Granted Honeycomb is a attempt at helped but still has baggage. QNX was never designed for a smart phone at conception or the limitations of one. BlackBerry, which owns QNX now, will be porting it to a new generation of smart phones after first of year or so but its roots are in a tablet.

Android is built on Linux, which was not "born as a phone OS". Its multitasking limitations are driven by the need to minimize resource and power consumption. As available memory continues to increase (the Bionic has 1GB of RAM!) and battery power density improves, these limitations will gradually disappear; IOS is on the same trajectory.

RIM will likely follow Palm into the ground; they have lost all momentum and credibility, and are unlikely to be saved by the QNX Hail Mary.

BB bought QNX over a year ago. They knew they needed to take a different direction with their OS to get into tablets and future phones. QNX will be used on several new phones after first of year and it has the "potential" to be a game change (does not mean it will but it will be most advanced OS on a smart phone) Also RIM is not out of game yet by any stretch and still has a business following and they have the ONLY tablet/OS made that passes government security certification. It is still the most secure smart phone out there. Some countries hate them because they are impossible to crack into and monitor without BB's help. Not so with Driod and IOS.


Also, Androids future is a little in question now because while it was open source it is owned by Google and now that Google is buying Motorola and getting directly into phone business, other phone and tablet maker will be looking to depend less on android in future and not butter Google's bread when they make phones too.  

Google bought Motorola to use their patent portfolio as a weapon in their escalating patent war with Microsoft; for that reason, Samsung, HTC, and other Android-using mobile handset manufacturers are publicly supporting the transaction (http://software2tech.com/2011/08/15/google-to-acquire-motorola-mobility-htc-samsung-lg-sony-ericsson-keyman-support-of-the-acquisition/). Yes, Google will have to be careful to not give Motorola an unfair advantage with respect to other manufacturers. However, those other manufacturers have no competitive alternative to Android in their competition with the iPhone and IOS -- unless you believe that Microsoft and Nokia can bring the Windows Phone OS back from the dead; as Jobs once said, tying two big rocks together makes them sink even faster...

Google screwed up and did not by patents it needed too a few months ago when a group containing MS, Apple, Intel and BB paid over 6 billion to share a very rich pro folio from a bankrupt company. Buying Motorola mobile is a weak attempt at damage control by Google and Motorola would not part with it if it had any real future potential.  I remember years ago when IBM sold its high rated hard drive unit to Hitachi (which recently sold it too). Many thought it a bad move. They saw writing on wall and that solid state drives will be a force in future and got out of HD's when it was worth something. Samsung and LG are now looking to migrate some away for Droid because they know its future is questionable.

On a side note I think Sprint made a very bad move with recent Iphone deal. It will bury them I fear. I look for Iphone to fade and fall prey to other phones in next year or two. Job's insistence to not support Flash (because they do not own it and they want you to buy their movies) has crippled its web potential and it will one day cost it the brass ring.  I think Apple knows it and why they were willing to sign a deal with Sprint who they have ignored for 4 years now. 25 years ago Apple had edge but held to its "ideals" too tight and we are a MS world today because of it.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on October 05, 2011, 10:31:55 PM

No your attempt to claim it is pointless.

I have a son in his mid 20'S and he is very hard core Android and is the first to admit it cannot multitask and is frustrated by it.  

The fact that you have a son in his mid 20's who is frustrated by Android multitasking is not evidence that Android does not support multitasking.

If Android doesn't support multitasking, as you claim with zero evidence, how do you explain the fact that my phone running Android 2.3 can simultaneously update my moving position on a map, display my RSS feeds, sync my calender, and take a picture?

Your attempt to compare it to windows sharing a com port is very very lame. This is a virtual resource issue not a multitasking issue.

Neither buzzwords nor unsubstantiated statements will get you out of this. COM ports are physical resources, not virtual resources. The fact that Windows won't allow two tasks that open the same COM port to run simultaneously doesn't mean that Windows can't multitask. Similarly, the fact that some Android phone you tested can't display two video streams simultaneously doesn't mean that Android can't multitask. All multitasking systems must respect resource limitations.

Android may be based on Linux (as OS2 was too) but it did not take a lot of it's features forward because of lack or resources to use them and to keep code small.

Torvalds began working on Linux in 1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux). OS2 development began in 1985, and was first released in 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS/2) - a full 4 years before Linux development first started. OS/2 was not based on Linux, as you claim above.

IT CANNOT MULTITASK. It can only do very very limited COOPERATIVE multitasking of a few select tasks. It cannot PRE-EMPTIVE (true multitask) apps. QNX is only tablet OS that can.

The familiar pattern repeats: you make a blatantly false statement, e.g. "Windows 8 is a new OS" or "Android doesn't support multitasking". You ignore the the independent citations showing your statements to be false, substituting bluster for logic. But at some point, you try subtly altering your claim in hopes that no one will notice. Your claim that Android doesn't support multitasking is blatantly false, and your attempt here to claim that multitasking without pre-emptive scheduling isn't multitasking is as ludicrous as the original claim. As I suggested earlier, the first step in escaping from a deep hole is to stop digging.

How will you retroactively "fix" your ridiculous claim that OS/2 was based on Linux?

Google screwed up and did not by patents it needed too a few months ago when a group containing MS, Apple, Intel and BB paid over 6 billion to share a very rich pro folio from a bankrupt company.

The bankrupt company to which you're referring is Nortel. Without knowing the name of the company, how can you possibly know whether its patent portfolio would have been useful to Google?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. You obviously don't check facts before making pronouncements; otherwise, you'd know that Windows 8 is not "a new OS", but rather is built on the MinWin kernel just like Vista and Windows 7, you'd know that multitasking does not require a pre-emptive scheduler, and you'd know that OS/2 could not possibly be based on Linux.

Buying Motorola mobile is a weak attempt at damage control by Google and Motorola would not part with it if it had any real future potential.

Motorola did not sell Motorola Mobility to Google. Motorola split into two companies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/03/motorola-spit-motorola-mobility_n_803847.html) -- Motorola Mobility and Motorola Solutions -- early this year, completing an action announced in 2008. If the deal goes through, Google will buy Motorola Mobility from its shareholders, not from the no-longer-existent "Motorola" as you claim above. Wrong again!





Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on October 06, 2011, 08:46:21 AM
If Android doesn't support multitasking, as you claim with zero evidence, how do you explain the fact that my phone running Android 2.3 can simultaneously update my moving position on a map, display my RSS feeds, sync my calender, and take a picture?

Those are all cooperative tasks. You are NOT undating RSS feeds will syncing and such it is switching between them. Can you play a HD video via HDMI and then take a picture, surf web to email and such with your Droid. No because it cannot really multitask. Neither can IOS. QNX tabets can

Neither buzzwords nor unsubstantiated statements will get you out of this. COM ports are physical resources, not virtual resources. The fact that Windows won't allow two tasks that open the same COM port to run simultaneously doesn't mean that Windows can't multitask. Similarly, the fact that some Android phone you tested can't display two video streams simultaneously doesn't mean that Android can't multitask. All multitasking systems must respect resource limitations.

Actually it is not as you claim. Any PC that does not have a serial port on board makes one via a virtual one using a USB adapter. And as fars as respecting resources. When you use Virtual PC and visualize/run more than on OS at a time on PC CAN share the virtual com port between OSes. ANd again, being able to share a com port withing a OS is not a sign of multitasking. Actively running several apps preemptively is. MAYBE one day Andriod will do it but not now. It sure has you fooled though.

Torvalds began working on Linux in 1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux). OS2 development began in 1985, and was first released in 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS/2) - a full 4 years before Linux development first started. OS/2 was not based on Linux, as you claim above.

There was two developments of OS2. First it was a joint action with MS. They then split and IBM went it alone. If you had ever used OS2 as I have in past you would know that command line queries and response are very Linux like. Bases of it or copied/followed some of its structure it has a link to Linux

The familiar pattern repeats: you make a blatantly false statement, e.g. "Windows 8 is a new OS" or "Android doesn't support multitasking". You ignore the the independent citations showing your statements to be false, substituting bluster for logic. But at some point, you try subtly altering your claim in hopes that no one will notice. Your claim that Android doesn't support multitasking is blatantly false, and your attempt here to claim that multitasking without pre-emptive scheduling isn't multitasking is as ludicrous as the original claim. As I suggested earlier, the first step in escaping from a deep hole is to stop digging.

WIN8 is a new OS for MS and it is focused on Tablets. MS (un like you) realizes that tablet will take over for laptops soon and they want in on it. WIN8 is built to start moving into that platform. Failure to do so will cost them dearly. And on multitasking, every recent (since year 2000) true multitask OS I have used has had a task or priority scheduler in it. Even QNX has one too.  Never find that on a Driod because it cannot support it. Maybe some day but not yet and several active flavors or versions of Andriod being used does not help this either. Andriod needs a major upgrade and consistent version level across platform with new devices. MS wants to do this too, IOS mostly does this and BB will be too after first of year or so. In this tech world OSes can fall as fast or faster than they rose. Androids future is far from assured.


How will you retroactively "fix" your ridiculous claim that OS/2 was based on Linux?

Nothing to fix explained above


The bankrupt company to which you're referring is Nortel. Without knowing the name of the company, how can you possibly know whether its patent portfolio would have been useful to Google?

I was well aware of Nortels assets and how Google flubbed the bidding on it big time with silly bids. I was watch the auction to see who was going to get it because it was a high value item. It was a long awaited sale.  Do you think that Apple, MS, Intel and BB would have teamed up if it was not a high value item.  Never would have happened. There were going to make sure Goggle did not get it.

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. You obviously don't check facts before making pronouncements; otherwise, you'd know that Windows 8 is not "a new OS", but rather is built on the MinWin kernel just like Vista and Windows 7, you'd know that multitasking does not require a pre-emptive scheduler, and you'd know that OS/2 could not possibly be based on Linux.


You have a big problem with new OS thing don't you? Unless it is ALL NEW code you do not considered it a new OS even if it is a major upgrade/change. Like a said before new every 2. Every 2 releases MS has a major change/upgrade  Win2000 major, WINXP minor tweak, Vista major (and 64 bit main stream support too) and WIN7 a tweak of Vista. WIN8 is another major upgrade/change. Wishing and saying it is not does not change what it will be. MS must move away from Desktop as main focus and that requires a major code change. A WIN7 tweak or clone will not work here

Motorola did not sell Motorola Mobility to Google. Motorola split into two companies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/03/motorola-spit-motorola-mobility_n_803847.html) -- Motorola Mobility and Motorola Solutions -- early this year, completing an action announced in 2008. If the deal goes through, Google will buy Motorola Mobility from its shareholders, not from the no-longer-existent "Motorola" as you claim above. Wrong again!

Motorola would not have split off phone division unless it knew it was a loosing prospect in future. If it was viable and had a great future it would have not split it off. Many company spin off weaker parts to sell them and focus on core. Google had not choice but to try to buy it at any price because they are hurting. It will give them some patents and manufacturing for phones but not the brass ring than Nortel patents would have been to it. Google is a in a Damage control mode and likely shot themselves in foot because it will turn their one time allies (Samsung, LG and such) that focused on Droid phone to look to other platforms in future because they do not want to help Google succeed in marketing Android when Google will be making phone too. They will not drop Droid in near term but they are looking for other platforms for late 2012 and into 2013 and they will be watching QNX too to see how it develops.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on October 06, 2011, 03:09:45 PM
If Android doesn't support multitasking, as you claim with zero evidence, how do you explain the fact that my phone running Android 2.3 can simultaneously update my moving position on a map, display my RSS feeds, sync my calender, and take a picture?

Those are all cooperative tasks.

Yes, there is a difference between cooperative multitasking and pre-emptive multitasking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_multitasking). But you didn't say "Android doesn't support pre-emptive multitasking", you said "Android doesn't support multitasking" - as any reader can easily verify. Your statement is false.

Torvalds began working on Linux in 1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux). OS2 development began in 1985, and was first released in 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS/2) - a full 4 years before Linux development first started. OS/2 was not based on Linux, as you claim above.

There was two developments of OS2. First it was a joint action with MS. They then split and IBM went it alone. If you had ever used OS2 as I have in past you would know that command line queries and response are very Linux like. Bases of it or copied/followed some of its structure it has a link to Linux

OS2 was influenced by Unix. Linux, which was developed after OS2, was also influenced by Unix. As a result, there are similarities between OS2 and Linux. However, since the development of Linux started years after OS2 was already released, OS2 cannot possibly have based on Linux as you claim. Once again, you have taken an empirical observation - "OS2 and Linux have similarities in their command lines" and jumped to a completely incorrect conclusion.

WIN8 is a new OS for MS and it is focused on Tablets. MS (un like you) realizes that tablet will take over for laptops soon and they want in on it. WIN8 is built to start moving into that platform. Failure to do so will cost them dearly.

I have provided references to multiple articles describing Windows 8 as being implemented on the same MinWin kernel that supports Vista and Windows 7. Windows 8 is without question an evolutionary descendant of Windows 7, not a new operating system as you repeatedly assert, but can never substantiate. Does Windows 8 include a new user interface (Metro) designed to better support tablets? Certainly, but doing this did not require Microsoft to implement Windows 8 from scratch, as you have claimed.

Had you been able to find an article supporting your claim that Windows 8 is a new operating system, you'd have posted it by now. You can't because it isn't. Case closed.

And on multitasking, every recent (since year 2000) true multitask OS I have us
ed has had a task or priority scheduler in it. Even QNX has one too.  Never find that on a Driod because it cannot support it. Maybe some day but not yet and several active flavors or versions of Andriod being used does not help this either. Andriod needs a major upgrade and consistent version level across platform with new devices. MS wants to do this too, IOS mostly does this and BB will be too after first of year or so. In this tech world OSes can fall as fast or faster than they rose. Androids future is far from assured.

You said "Android does not support multitasking", not "Android does not support pre-emptive multitasking". Your claim is false. Case closed.

The bankrupt company to which you're referring is Nortel. Without knowing the name of the company, how can you possibly know whether its patent portfolio would have been useful to Google?

I was well aware of Nortels assets and how Google flubbed the bidding on it big time with silly bids. I was watch the auction to see who was going to get it because it was a high value item. It was a long awaited sale.  Do you think that Apple, MS, Intel and BB would have teamed up if it was not a high value item.  Never would have happened. There were going to make sure Goggle did not get it.

So you deduce that Nortel's patents must have been valuable to Google because other companies teamed up to acquire them? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. You obviously don't check facts before making pronouncements; otherwise, you'd know that Windows 8 is not "a new OS", but rather is built on the MinWin kernel just like Vista and Windows 7, you'd know that multitasking does not require a pre-emptive scheduler, and you'd know that OS/2 could not possibly be based on Linux.

You have a big problem with new OS thing don't you?

I have a big problem with you posting blatantly false information here.

Unless it is ALL NEW code you do not considered it a new OS even if it is a major upgrade/change. Like a said before new every 2. Every 2 releases MS has a major change/upgrade  Win2000 major, WINXP minor tweak, Vista major (and 64 bit main stream support too) and WIN7 a tweak of Vista. WIN8 is another major upgrade/change. Wishing and saying it is not does not change what it will be. MS must move away from Desktop as main focus and that requires a major code change. A WIN7 tweak or clone will not work here

As any reader can see, your original claim was that Windows 8 is an all new operating system. Now you're retreating to "Windows 8 is a major upgrade" -- a statement with which I would never have taken issue.

Motorola did not sell Motorola Mobility to Google. Motorola split into two companies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/03/motorola-spit-motorola-mobility_n_803847.html) -- Motorola Mobility and Motorola Solutions -- early this year, completing an action announced in 2008. If the deal goes through, Google will buy Motorola Mobility from its shareholders, not from the no-longer-existent "Motorola" as you claim above. Wrong again!

Motorola would not have split off phone division unless it knew it was a loosing prospect in future. If it was viable and had a great future it would have not split it off. Many company spin off weaker parts to sell them and focus on core.

As explained in the article above -- and any number of other web-accessible articles that you evidently can't be bothered to read -- Motorola did not "split off (its) phone division". Motorola was divided into two separate companies because there was little synergy between them.

W8JX, you are a reliable source of mis-information, and evidently proud of your ignorance; wallow in it. Readers of this forum now have you calibrated. There is no need for me to waste another minute on this thread, so the last words are all yours.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on October 06, 2011, 07:01:20 PM
Yes, there is a difference between cooperative multitasking and pre-emptive multitasking[/u]. But you didn't say "Android doesn't support pre-emptive multitasking", you said "Android doesn't support multitasking" - as any reader can easily verify. Your statement is false. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_multitasking)

As stated below I do NOT consider 90's WIN9x style multitasking, true multitasking. If you do you have a very low standard and like old tech. It has not been used is a new 32 bit or 64 bit MS OS since late 99

OS2 was influenced by Unix. Linux, which was developed after OS2, was also influenced by Unix. As a result, there are similarities between OS2 and Linux. However, since the development of Linux started years after OS2 was already released, OS2 cannot possibly have based on Linux as you claim. Once again, you have taken an empirical observation - "OS2 and Linux have similarities in their command lines" and jumped to a completely incorrect conclusion.

If you want to debate semantics have at it. Unix was start and was not free, Linux started as a free spin off of it and evolved over years.  IBM got hung up and wanting to make OS/2 support on work in protected mode on a 286 and wasted time with 1.x series. You can use Unix/Linux commands with OS/2 so they are based/share command structure.

I have provided references to multiple articles describing Windows 8 as being implemented on the same MinWin kernel that supports Vista and Windows 7. Windows 8 is without question an evolutionary descendant of Windows 7, not a new operating system as you repeatedly assert, but can never substantiate. Does Windows 8 include a new user interface (Metro) designed to better support tablets? Certainly, but doing this did not require Microsoft to implement Windows 8 from scratch, as you have claimed.

There is more than a interface. They had to change code and feature to get it thin enough for tablet and responsive on tablets. Word is too Metro has a tuff time multitasking on screen too. You cannot hang Metro on Win7 and call it WIN8 and have a tablet OS. If it was that simple they would have done it long ago.

Had you been able to find an article supporting your claim that Windows 8 is a new operating system, you'd have posted it by now. You can't because it isn't. Case closed.

Oh I could find LOTS of them but it is not my fault you cannot read them on own. Info is out there and so is history new/major overhaul ever 2. It is a pattern too

You said "Android does not support multitasking", not "Android does not support pre-emptive multitask". Your claim is false. Case closed.

I am sorry but you have a weaker standard for multitasking than I do. I do not consider cooperative multitasking true multitasking. This is like WIN95/98 guy. Ancient but guess you feel it is tip of the sword.  

The bankrupt company to which you're referring is Nortel. Without knowing the name of the company, how can you possibly know whether its patent portfolio would have been useful to Google?

I do a LOT of RSS feed tech reading and insider reading every day from everywhere and have it stream to my phone, PC and tablet too. Been following outcome for some time. Long time ago I actually worked some with Nortel equipment too

So you deduce that Nortel's patents must have been valuable to Google because other companies teamed up to acquire them? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh I know all right. Many have wanted that group for a long time Goggle made some silly bids like pie (3.14xxx billion) And like I said MS Apple and Intel would not have wasted time if they were no good. Google knew it goofed after the fact.

I have a big problem with you posting blatantly false information here.

Well obviously not with yourself doing it. Your dog is not hunting....

As any reader can see, your original claim was that Windows 8 is an all new operating system. Now you're retreating to "Windows 8 is a major upgrade" -- a statement with which I would never have taken issue.

Motorola did not sell Motorola Mobility to Google. Motorola split into two companies (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/03/motorola-spit-motorola-mobility_n_803847.html) -- Motorola Mobility and Motorola Solutions -- early this year, completing an action announced in 2008. If the deal goes through, Google will buy Motorola Mobility from its shareholders, not from the no-longer-existent "Motorola" as you claim above. Wrong again!

No as explained below, they did it to get rid of it in future and gain tax advantage. YOu surely are not naive enough they did not benefit from spin off.

As explained in the article above -- and any number of other web-accessible articles that you evidently can't be bothered to read -- Motorola did not "split off (its) phone division". Motorola was divided into two separate companies because there was little synergy between them.

And you are to stuck to admit they did this because they knew competition was going to limit availability of main company so it was spun off. I have seen this many times with other companies. Guess you reading it too tunnel vision. There would been no spin off and unit to buy if it had a future. You cannot wrap you mind around that it seems

W8JX, you are a reliable source of mis-information, and evidently proud of your ignorance; wallow in it. Readers of this forum now have you calibrated. There is no need for me to waste another minute on this thread, so the last words are all yours.

The mis-info is you guy. You are not just happy to debate, you want to degrade when you cannot sell it or BS it thru. You have gone thru a lot to sell that 90's style cooperative multi tasking as true multitasking in Android as on the cutting edge when it is not at all. Is it popular, yes but is it a powerful true multitasking OS. Most definitely not and no song and dance or insult will change that.  


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AE5HO on October 11, 2011, 01:57:51 PM
Guys, just read a little: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/04/multitasking-android-way.html

Premptive multitasking and SMP as well.  Just google "android multitasking" and read away.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on October 11, 2011, 07:54:42 PM
Guys, just read a little: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/04/multitasking-android-way.html

Premptive multitasking and SMP as well.  Just google "android multitasking" and read away.

I posted that very article in one of my responses above (reply #38). It had no more effect than any of the other fact-based articles I posted.

    73,

        Dave, AA6YQ


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: STAYVERTICAL on October 12, 2011, 12:05:05 PM
Guys,

I have been away a few days and I missed a few episodes of this soap opera.
Could someone please tell me if Martha and Kyle decided to go pre-emptive or simple multi-tasking.
Also, did Jake finally decide to upgrade his BIOS or is he holding out for a donor?

I realise that these matters are not life and death in nature, and that the whole show is a confabulation
of hot air inflating oversize ego's, but you know how it is, after a while you sort of think of them as real
and they become part of one's life.

Oh, for the simple days of scratching a living from share-cropping and being glad to have a full stomach.
In those days such weighty matters as OS wars were not the province of mere mortals.



Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: AA6YQ on October 12, 2011, 09:14:17 PM
Guys,

I have been away a few days and I missed a few episodes of this soap opera.
Could someone please tell me if Martha and Kyle decided to go pre-emptive or simple multi-tasking.
Also, did Jake finally decide to upgrade his BIOS or is he holding out for a donor?

I realise that these matters are not life and death in nature, and that the whole show is a confabulation
of hot air inflating oversize ego's, but you know how it is, after a while you sort of think of them as real
and they become part of one's life.

Oh, for the simple days of scratching a living from share-cropping and being glad to have a full stomach.
In those days such weighty matters as OS wars were not the province of mere mortals.


Failing to correct blatant mis-information that could lead readers astray would be irresponsible. Ignoring snarky tail-enders ? Priceless.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W3WN on October 19, 2011, 06:02:02 AM
Been doing some reading and it seems that Microsoft going to require a major BIOS change on all new PC's and Tablets certified for Windows 8 that will prevent the installation of another OS, even older version of Windows, on the PC. In effect locking out Linux too and tightening Microsoft's grip on PC market. Those holding out for Windows 8 for PC upgrades might reconsider. 
I wouldn't worry about this just yet.  For one thing, I'm sure that if this actually happens (which I doubt), it won't be long before there are a few enterprising souls who come up with a patch to work around this.

Granted, it's not the first time Microsoft has been accused of trying a stunt like this.  Anyone else remember when Windows 3 was being configured to run only on MS-DOS, and had a built-in flag to detect if DR-DOS was the underlying OS... and not load?  That didn't last too long, and I suspect that neither will this stunt.  If it actually happens.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W3WN on October 19, 2011, 06:10:25 AM
It is a new OS. MS has a pattern for many years now to make a new OS then tweak it with a new release and then start over. Win2000 was new, XP was a tweak of 2000.  Vista was a new direction, Win7 was a tweak.  Win8 is a new direction again. Sure it will run on a desktop top but MS realizes that laptops (and maybe Desktops) could be on life support in a few years or so as Tablets evolve so Win8's primary focus is on Tablet not desktop as the new frontier.
That's a bit of an over-simplification.

When Microsoft & IBM split up ownership of OS/2, MS OS/2 became Windows NT.  NT started as version 3 to match the numbering for Windows 3, it's later upgrades were 3.5 & then 4.0  (and I'm deliberatly skipping on the details here).  NT 5 became Windows 2000 (which causes confusion because Windows over DOS, Windows 3, became Windows 95, Windows 98, and then Windows ME, although to be consistent, IT shouldhave gotten the 2K moniker... but we are talking about Microsoft here). 

It in turn begat Windows XP (NT 5.5), which begat Windows Vista (NT 6).  Vista 2.0 was rechristend as Windows 7 (it actually should be Windows 6.5).

It should be no surprise that development continues once a feature set for a given OS is "frozen" and sent into beta testing and then into Release Candidate mode.  Some parts of the OS's underlying code are completely rewritten or overhauled... but the whole thing from start to finish?  I don't think so.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W3WN on October 19, 2011, 06:15:19 AM
You mean Dave Cutler, who developed VMS at DEC.

Where's the (yuck) after Windows Me? (http://xkcd.com/323/) It's at least as deserving as Vista.

Hopefully your genealogy will put a stop to the "Windows 8 is a new OS" BS.
Fair enough:

Windows ME (*yuck*)

Vista has, IMHO, been given a bum rap... and I'm using it from this very machine.  The real problem with Vista was the way it was marketed... it required more resources to run optimally than was originally promised, and many so-called "Vista Ready" machines, well, they could run it, but not well, as they didn't have enough RAM and sometimes not a fast or powerful enough processor to run it right.

It's well known that Windows ME, however, was deliberately stripped down and somewhat crippled by Microsoft.  I don't know if they were trying to keep it out of business hands (forcing businesses to go with Win 2000 only), or if they were trying to kill the Windows-GUI-Over-DOS line altogether... or possibly more than a little of both.  Pity.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W0BTU on November 09, 2011, 09:02:20 PM
it seems that Microsoft going to require a major BIOS change on all new PC's and Tablets certified for Windows 8 that will prevent the installation of another OS, even older version of Windows, on the PC. In effect locking out Linux too ...

What about running Win8 inside VirtualBox running under Linux? Is Win8 going to prevent us from doing that?

Or Linux running inside VirtualBox running under Win8?

I suppose those questions can't yet be answered.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on November 10, 2011, 01:45:03 PM
it seems that Microsoft going to require a major BIOS change on all new PC's and Tablets certified for Windows 8 that will prevent the installation of another OS, even older version of Windows, on the PC. In effect locking out Linux too ...

What about running Win8 inside VirtualBox running under Linux? Is Win8 going to prevent us from doing that?

Or Linux running inside VirtualBox running under Win8?

I suppose those questions can't yet be answered.

I doubt MS will leak that early on. Only time will answer that question...


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: KF7CG on November 16, 2011, 11:02:02 AM
From what little I have seen here, Win 8 will probably only run with an on Win8. If it does indeeed require a new bios (bios replacement) base and won't run without it, and the "bios" wont allow other than Win8; presto, a Win 8 only (maybe othe Microsoft) box forever.

KF7CG


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: KD8QDL on November 20, 2011, 04:46:33 AM
The smart money should consider a total Ubuntu 11.10 Linux install.  When my Win 7 HD died, I made the switch and will never look back.  As I write this post on my Linux based machine, I can only hope that others will take the time to investigate the speed and depth of Linux and where it is going.  I introduced it to my Ham Club and ARES groups in Ohio, and the response has been overwhelmingly good as many look forward to making the switch.  Ham operators have been "out of the box thinkers" since the inception of the discipline.  Linux should be our OS.  It's very inexpensive (FREE), more stable than Windows, and has a great many programs (33,000+) available at no charge for those willing to make the jump to light speed.  Not bad!!


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on November 20, 2011, 11:34:53 AM
The smart money should consider a total Ubuntu 11.10 Linux install.  When my Win 7 HD died, I made the switch and will never look back.  As I write this post on my Linux based machine, I can only hope that others will take the time to investigate the speed and depth of Linux and where it is going.  I introduced it to my Ham Club and ARES groups in Ohio, and the response has been overwhelmingly good as many look forward to making the switch.  Ham operators have been "out of the box thinkers" since the inception of the discipline.  Linux should be our OS.  It's very inexpensive (FREE), more stable than Windows, and has a great many programs (33,000+) available at no charge for those willing to make the jump to light speed.  Not bad!!

Linux is fine for business and some users but it still lacks universal GUI that made Windoze power it is today and off shelf program and device support. Next frontier is going to be tablet not new OS on Desktop. I do not madly love Windoze but I use it because of off shelve support. On good hardware 64 bit OS is very stable.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: KD8QDL on November 20, 2011, 03:59:41 PM
Off the shelf software is great, but Windows is not open source and, therefore, many of us have to rely on Microsoft for expensive upgrades and/or fixes.  The limits to open source code are nonexistent, and the speed at which Linux runs is flat out faster than any Windows install running on the same hardware.  Since Windows tries to be all things to all people, its bloated resource needs simply cannot compete with a Linux install where the user gets to pick and choose the applications and the options he or she desires.  The virus issues Microsoft has to deal with are a real problem, one which Linux users seldom see because the virus writers concentrate on the low hanging Microsoft fruit and never take the time or make the effort to hack Linux.  Even if they did, there is an army of open source Linux devotees out there who would correct the problem in a matter of minutes versus the hours or days that it takes Microsoft to fix.  Sorry to disagree, but I have used Windows for years (DOS before that) and I truly believe the best OS is Linux..the price is great (FREE) and the Linux community is incredibly supportive.  Just try it and you will be pleasantly surprised.  Ubuntu 11.10 is free for downloading over the net.  Get it and burn yourself an image copy.  You won't be disappointed.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on November 20, 2011, 04:23:19 PM
Off the shelf software is great, but Windows is not open source and, therefore, many of us have to rely on Microsoft for expensive upgrades and/or fixes.  The limits to open source code are nonexistent, and the speed at which Linux runs is flat out faster than any Windows install running on the same hardware.  Since Windows tries to be all things to all people, its bloated resource needs simply cannot compete with a Linux install where the user gets to pick and choose the applications and the options he or she desires.  The virus issues Microsoft has to deal with are a real problem, one which Linux users seldom see because the virus writers concentrate on the low hanging Microsoft fruit and never take the time or make the effort to hack Linux.  Even if they did, there is an army of open source Linux devotees out there who would correct the problem in a matter of minutes versus the hours or days that it takes Microsoft to fix.  Sorry to disagree, but I have used Windows for years (DOS before that) and I truly believe the best OS is Linux..the price is great (FREE) and the Linux community is incredibly supportive.  Just try it and you will be pleasantly surprised.  Ubuntu 11.10 is free for downloading over the net.  Get it and burn yourself an image copy.  You won't be disappointed.

You will be disappointed as soon as you find out what does not work with it. As far as expensive upgrades and fixes. For what? Vista 64 bit will be viable fore many years yet and Win7 even longer. As far as speed if Linux runs a lot faster on your box it is because you lack resources (CPU and ram) to run Windows 64 bit proper. There is not "magic" about Linux needing less resources because GUI supports much less and is far more limited and lacks extensive PnP support that takes code and hardware too. Claiming Linux is a better choice it just like buying a car with fancier paint of tires from hype without actually driving it. Open source is good and bad here because it supports the lack of a universal and well defined GUI to write programs for. Too many flavors of Linux out there. If you really want to play with linux just get a nice quad core system with 6 to 8 gig of ram and 64 bit Vista or Win7 and Virtual PC. This will let to run a play with Linux (or XP even Win98) in a virtual machine and not screw up bread and butter Windows box


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: KD8QDL on November 20, 2011, 07:25:48 PM
I recently installed Linux Ubuntu 11.10 on an older laptop running Vista.  Vista was incredibly slow and cumbersome.  Now this machine runs rings around the old one.  I also put Ubuntu 64 bit Linux on a quad core machine with 6 gigs of ram after that Win 7 hard drive bit the dust.  It runs exponentially better (faster with no crashes or hangups).  The GUI (Graphical User Interface) is just as productive as that of Win 7 and is entirely customized for the end user's needs.  I also did not need to pay for Word, Excel, PowerPoint or any other Microsoft products as Libre Office is included in the install of the OS.  That program is a version of Sun Microsystems Open Office (very popular with college students) which truly and completely replaces the expensive Microsoft Suite at absolutely no cost. The economics are there and when you look under the hood, Linux runs a smaller block engine that can be tuned to the horsepower needs of the user.  It is not some big block gas hog that decides what the user needs and it never tries to stuff things down the throat of the user or the installer.  In short..Linux is the light, quick, efficient sports car and Windows, 7 or otherwise, is my father's Buick Electra 225...big, fat, and slow. I have already installed Fldigi and Flarc to my Linux OS (both were free of charge) and I look forward to running both programs on my DX rig.  Inexpensive and incredibly powerful OS...try it before you condemn it.  It works great for me and for all the friends that I have converted.  Windows messing with BIOS on Win 8.  I will never have to worry about what big brother decides is best for me.  I like to make those decisions myself and Linux lets me do just that.  Give Linux a shot and get back to me...and remember the GUI is just as good as Bill Gate's.


Title: RE: Beware of upcoming Windows 8
Post by: W8JX on November 20, 2011, 08:03:42 PM
If Vista is slow it is because you lack hardware to run it proper (CPU and RAM) Yes could is fater but that is because of complex GUI and program code support. Linux lacks this and has limited GUI and very immature on PnP too. I am not beating MS's drum but I do not want to do back in times and loose features. Linux is great for business were you run very few apps but for home it can really suck at times.