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eHam Forums => DXing => Topic started by: AE5X on March 21, 2013, 07:23:50 AM



Title: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AE5X on March 21, 2013, 07:23:50 AM
Do you guys ever ponder which of the major DX awards grant the most bragging rights?

I'd put them in this order, from easiest to most difficult:

5B-DXCC
DX Honor Roll
5B-WAZ

Do those of you on HR have 5B-WAZ in your sights? After these, what's next?

John AE5X
http://www.ae5x.com/blog


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: VK3HJ on March 21, 2013, 07:32:57 AM
I'd put the WAZ above DXCC in difficulty.
At least that is my experience.
I am pleased to have 5BDXCC, but think 5BWAZ will be a whole lot more work.
From here, I have found Zone 2 to be the most challenging.
Luke VK3HJ


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W6GX on March 21, 2013, 07:39:07 AM
From here, I have found Zone 2 to be the most challenging.

Try requesting a sked with VO2NS.

Ok, I could see flames coming within 30 seconds.

73,
Jonathan W6GX


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W2IRT on March 21, 2013, 07:48:41 AM
5B-WAZ, but Honor Roll is no slouch either. I earned 5B-DXCC in 4 years (all with low wires and 500W or less). I got up to 9 bands/3 modes DXCC in 7 years. Here I am 12 years in and still waiting for 4 band-zones on 80m to complete all 200, with no guarantee of every hearing 'em. Yeah, by far that's the hardest award to earn of those mentioned. I'd say a 160m WAZ is harder still. HR is more a question of just being on the air when entities come on. WAZ requires more skill.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N3QE on March 21, 2013, 08:04:08 AM
I myself would put them in that order too. I have 5BDXCC easy but 5B-WAZ and honor roll are a long long away from where I am now.

But folks who have high-band only antennas often reach honor roll on the high bands long before they reach DXCC on 80M. There was a nice article in QST last year, by a long-time honor roller on his recent efforts to get 80M DXCC.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: KY6R on March 21, 2013, 08:21:07 AM
My only "real" goal was DXCC Honor Roll, and "just" mixed - but to do it as fast as I could. 9BDXCC was a secondary goal, and DXCC Challenge is just done in between the other things - so I don't get too bored. I have never gotten interested in the CQ Awards - only ARRL DXCC, and not really sure why.

1) 10BDXCC from the West Coast and 3000 DXCC Challenge and #1 Honor Roll
2) 6 Meter DXCC from the West Coast and 5BWAZ
3) Honor Roll and 2000 level DXCC Challenge
4) 160M DXCC from the West Coast and 9BDXCC

I think where you live has a huge influence on how hard one or the other award is. Not to mention local terrain, budget for gear, HOA's, etc ,etc

I think we compete with ourselves more than anyone else along the way.

I think I am enjoying 160M DXCC more than any other award I've chased, and doing the DXCC Challenge in "lazy / relaxed mode". Honor Roll was kind of stressful - probably because I put a time frame on it. I have no plans to bother with 5BWAZ . . .

Now I'm just enjoying DX-ing again. Totally just for the fun of it - and to continue to design, build and try different antennas. No self imposed time frames, no hurry.




Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N7SMI on March 21, 2013, 11:05:47 AM
It's not really DX, but I think the FFMA (all 488 US grid squares on VHF - http://www.arrl.org/ffma) must be one of the more difficult, life-long awards one could earn. There have only been 5 recipients, and none in the last 2.5 years.

And I agree that WAZ awards are much more difficult than DXCC, at least for me.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: VK3HJ on March 21, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
I have Nazaire in Zone 2 on 20 and 40 m, and VE2IM on 15 m, but apart from those bands, I still don't have 160, 80 and 10 m. That will happen when it happens.
Although I've only been DX-ing for about five minutes, I've worked most countries that have been on air in that time, 5BDXCC, and am now chasing 160 m DXCC with 85, and 26 Zones.
I note in my log that I am short 15 and 10 m on Zone 4, but I think that is just an incorrect Zone entered in the QRZ.com lookup. Will have to check that one out later.
Only once have I arranged a sked QSO - and felt a bit like I cheated afterwards!
The hobby is rich with awards with all levels of difficulty. I think the easiest for a budding DXer is Worked All Continents. Most of us now could do WAC every day, I think. Honor Roll, multi-band WAZ, etc. must be very hard to achieve to remain worthwhile chasing.
73,
Luke VK3HJ


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: KF6ABU on March 21, 2013, 04:46:34 PM
5 Band DXCC is rather easy - takes a year, and a lot sooner if you have nice antennae or live closer to the east coast.
Honor roll is not hard, just takes a lot longer.
5 Band WAZ is both hard, and takes a long time.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NI0C on March 21, 2013, 05:09:37 PM
AE5X asked:
Quote
Do those of you on HR have 5B-WAZ in your sights? After these, what's next?

Yes, for a long time.

5B-WAZ (entry level for me was 162 band zones in 2001).  Current level of 196 band zones was achieved in 2008.
DXCC Challenge 1000 level achieved in 2001. Currently over 2100 band entities. 
5B-DXCC: 2003
DXCC Honor Roll: 2009
160 WAZ (entry level of 30 zones): 2013

I'm not at all certain I'll work those last four 80m zones (let alone the last ten 160m zones) in the forseeable future.  I'm limited by my QTH more than anything else. 

I have begun organizing my QSL collection by CQ zone, rather than by country.  I am also working towards completing some more of the single-band, single-mode (for me, CW) WAZ awards offered by CQ. 

73,
Chuck  NI0C

 


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AA6YQ on March 21, 2013, 05:45:08 PM
Honor roll is not hard, just takes a lot longer.

The ARRL has evidently omitted your callsign from the list of ops who have attained Honor Roll (http://www.arrl.org/system/dxcc/view/DXCC-HR-20130321-USLetter.pdf). You should ask them to correct it.

    73,

          Dave, AA6YQ


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: WX2S on March 21, 2013, 07:44:17 PM
Heck, I am happy to just have enough confirmed for plain old DXCC.

-WX2S.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AF5CC on March 21, 2013, 10:42:21 PM
I would say that 2M DXCC would be one of the most difficult, surpassed only by 70cm DXCC.  I think only 1 op has that one!

John AF5CC


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: WD4ELG on March 21, 2013, 10:52:55 PM
Hey, I read somewhere that WAZ on160 does not require all 40 zones? How did that get into effect?


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NU1O on March 21, 2013, 11:14:09 PM
Hey, I read somewhere that WAZ on160 does not require all 40 zones? How did that get into effect?

Probably because it is so hard to work all 40 zones on 160 meters.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: K7MH on March 21, 2013, 11:35:41 PM
Hey, I read somewhere that WAZ on160 does not require all 40 zones? How did that get into effect?

You only need 30 and there are endorsements for 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40. Not sure why.

DXCC on 2 meters is largely done on EME.
It isn't particularly difficult but putting up decent antennas would be a pain and fairly expensive. You can have a small fortune in N connectors when you are done with some of the larger arrays! A tower doesn't have to be very high though.

WAZ on 5 bands would be tough as you have to cover the whole globe on each band.

When you think about it, one can potentially get DXCC on a band just covering part of the globe.
Something like North and South America, the Caribbean, and some Oceania or western Europe.

Not to mention it can be done in a weekend, sometimes on a single band in a major contest. I worked 84 entities on 20 in the ARRL DX phone contest earlier this month. Not 100 but getting fairly close!


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NU1O on March 21, 2013, 11:45:59 PM

When you think about it, one can potentially get DXCC on a band just covering part of the globe.
Something like North and South America, the Caribbean, and some Oceania or western Europe.

I recently calculated if you work NA, The Caribbean, SA, Europe, and the easier West African countries the total is about 180 countries.  I'm leaving out the whole Pacific  and most of those islands are not hard to work even from the East Coast. I did not count the South Atlantic islands (VP8's) in the total.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W1VT on March 22, 2013, 04:49:02 AM
If you want bragging rights, just announce that you are going to ANY entity on the top ten list, actually go there, and get your DXCC!

Nobody will care about your WAZ totals.  But, the DX community will remember you went there.

Zack W1VT


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: KY6R on March 22, 2013, 04:56:22 AM
If you want bragging rights, just announce that you are going to ANY entity on the top ten list, actually go there, and get your DXCC!

Nobody will care about your WAZ totals.  But, the DX community will remember you went there.

Zack W1VT

So true!

In fact, look for 4L4FN on this list for a perfect example:

http://www.arrl.org/system/dxcc/view/DXCC-MIXED-20130322-USLetter.pdf

Once he put P5 in front of 4L4FN - he became a "famous" DX-er!

It doesn't matter where he is on the DXCC Standings List . . . . just that he is one of two people who have ever activated P5.

P5/4L4FN to this day - and I expect for a long time - will be the most rare and coveted QSL card in my collection.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W2IRT on March 22, 2013, 06:09:32 AM
WAZ on 5 bands would be tough as you have to cover the whole globe on each band.

Yes, that's what makes it brutally hard, especially from North America, where all the geographically-difficult entities are situated also have small ham populations or super-stations. Think about it, it's a rough path to Mongolia from New Jersey and vice-versa, but a DXer in Mongolia can have his pick of powerhouse NJ stations for his 5B-WAZ, whereas there may only be one or two JT stations that have a good enough signal on 80. This is also why I would love to see a DXpedition mounted to entities that fall within certain rare-on-the-lowbands zones for the big population centres in NA.


Not to mention it can be done in a weekend, sometimes on a single band in a major contest. I worked 84 entities on 20 in the ARRL DX phone contest earlier this month. Not 100 but getting fairly close!

In ARRL-CW this year I did it on 40, 20 and 15--first time ever on 3 bands in the same weekend, but many times I've done it on both 15 & 20 in the majors, both CW and SSB. Consider that while I have a half-decent station I'm not a world-class contester and I've still managed to rack up over 230 entities so far in calendar 2013 (I'm after Marathon points this year). I'm hoping to finish the year with at least 275 entities plus all 40 zones.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: IK0OZD on March 23, 2013, 12:06:03 AM
my most beautiful award  DX was CQMAGAZINE UNILIMITED Marathon of 2011,


I tried a joy different from all others,
I'm very proud

73 gl
Tony


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W6GX on March 23, 2013, 08:39:02 AM
my most beautiful award  DX was CQMAGAZINE UNILIMITED Marathon of 2011,


I tried a joy different from all others,
I'm very proud

73 gl
Tony


Yes, this is a beautiful and prestigious award. And only one is given out in a year ;)  Congratulations.  So I must ask you which award you have is the one you are most proud of?  And which one is the most difficult and time-consuming to achieve?

73,
Jonathan W6GX


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: IK0OZD on March 23, 2013, 09:26:23 AM
ciao Jonathan ,
all award  are beautiful
the dxcc, l ' honor roll, the top honor roll, 5B waz are a natural attainment,
just live long and engage in what you want,

Marathon award , or the award  of a contest in my opinion are to be seen differently,

the first type of award (H.R.) is a race with time,
the second type of premium (CONTEST WINNER OR MARATHON) is a race with others,
This is not law, but only a little thought
ciao
Tony


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W6GX on March 23, 2013, 09:38:17 AM
ciao Jonathan ,
all award  are beautiful
the dxcc, l ' honor roll, the top honor roll, 5B waz are a natural attainment,
just live long and engage in what you want,

Marathon award , or the award  of a contest in my opinion are to be seen differently,

the first type of award (H.R.) is a race with time,
the second type of premium (CONTEST WINNER OR MARATHON) is a race with others,
This is not law, but only a little thought
ciao
Tony


A very good answer Tony.  So now what award(s) are you still after?  I can't think of any!  Ciao.

A good thing I still have time on my side to achieve my goals.  I still have at least three solar cycles left in me, hihi.

73,
Jonathan W6GX


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: IK0OZD on March 23, 2013, 09:46:14 AM
I like the IOTA  program in this moment ,


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NX7U on March 29, 2013, 11:38:09 PM
Well, I guess it has to be (easiest to hardest)
5B-WAZ
5B-DXCC
DXCC Honor Roll

because I got them in that order.  Except not HR yet...one short.

Off the cuff I would have said 5B-WAZ, but the thing is, it only takes 150Z to qualify.  So technically you can have zero zones on 80m and get it.  Whereas for 5B-DXCC you have to have the 100 countries on 80m--no makeups elsewhere.
(For the record, my 5B-WAZ count is 190.  On verticals and mobile.)


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AF3Y on March 30, 2013, 06:33:48 AM
Off the cuff I would have said 5B-WAZ, but the thing is, it only takes 150Z to qualify.  So technically you can have zero zones on 80m and get it. 

I did not know that...... I may be closer than I thought :D.

Only need 30 more on 80m now for 8BDXCC. (Slowly coming.......... ::).)

73, Gene AF3Y


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: VK3HJ on March 30, 2013, 06:44:04 AM
I never looked into 5BWAZ, as I thought I first had to confirm all 40 zones on all 5 bands!
It appears I have been qualified for quite some time for initial 5BWAZ. Even before my 5BDXCC.
Thanks for pointing this out.
I'll wait, however till I can also apply for my 160 m WAZ - 27 zones worked now.
However, it is the CQ DX Marathon that helps keep me DX hunting daily.
73,
Luke VK3HJ


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: WD4ELG on March 30, 2013, 07:20:20 PM
Wow, I am at 148 towards a goal of 150 for 5B WAZ.  That is confusing...only 30 needed on 160 meters, only 150 needed for 5BWAZ.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AE5X on March 30, 2013, 08:50:04 PM
They have a funny way of defining "All"! Maybe it's like what the definition of "is" is...

John AE5X


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AA6YQ on March 30, 2013, 11:10:36 PM
Well, I guess it has to be (easiest to hardest)
5B-WAZ
5B-DXCC
DXCC Honor Roll

Beyond "Mixed DXCC Honor Roll" lies
- Honor Roll on individual bands
- Honor Roll on individual modes
- Mixed Top of the Honor Roll
- Top of the Honor Roll on individual bands
- Top of the Honor Roll on individual modes
- the DXCC Challenge DeSoto Cup

    73,

          Dave, AA6YQ


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: VK3HJ on March 31, 2013, 05:26:12 AM
They have a funny way of defining "All"! Maybe it's like what the definition of "is" is...

John AE5X


Maybe it should be "WAAZ" Worked Almost All Zones!
Luke VK3HJ


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NI0C on March 31, 2013, 05:55:47 AM
WD4ELG wrote:
Quote
Wow, I am at 148 towards a goal of 150 for 5B WAZ.  That is confusing...only 30 needed on 160 meters, only 150 needed for 5BWAZ.

I believe 6 meter WAZ requires only 25 zones.  The difference between the entry level and full achievement level for these WAZ awards is as least as great as the difference between basic DXCC and Honor Roll. 

For me, having the 5B WAZ certificate on the wall is simply a reminder what I'm striving for.  I have the utmost respect for those who have worked all 200 zones.  I arranged a luncheon for my friend KQ0B shortly after he achieved his.  I'm glad I did, because he passed away suddenly only a few months later.

73,
Chuck  NI0C


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NI0C on March 31, 2013, 05:58:59 AM
AA6YQ wrote:
Quote
Beyond "Mixed DXCC Honor Roll" lies
- Honor Roll on individual bands
- Honor Roll on individual modes
- Mixed Top of the Honor Roll
- Top of the Honor Roll on individual bands
- Top of the Honor Roll on individual modes
- the DXCC Challenge DeSoto Cup

I'm not sure that ARRL has a formal Honor Roll listing for individual bands, but it would be nice if they did.  In any event, these are all worthy goals to strive for!

73,
Chuck  NI0C


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NI0C on March 31, 2013, 06:10:52 AM
In one of my posts above, I mentioned, Mike, KQ0B.  I just checked, and his story of completing 5B WAZ still appears on his QRZ.com page: http://www.qrz.com/db/KQ0B

Well worth reading by anyone striving for 5B WAZ.

73 & RIP, Mike,
Chuck  NI0C



Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N4OGW on March 31, 2013, 08:23:46 AM
AA6YQ wrote:
Quote
Beyond "Mixed DXCC Honor Roll" lies
- Honor Roll on individual bands
- Honor Roll on individual modes
- Mixed Top of the Honor Roll
- Top of the Honor Roll on individual bands
- Top of the Honor Roll on individual modes
- the DXCC Challenge DeSoto Cup

I'm not sure that ARRL has a formal Honor Roll listing for individual bands, but it would be nice if they did.  In any event, these are all worthy goals to strive for!

73,
Chuck  NI0C

Right here- well at least you can tell current HR:

http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-standings

Tor
N4OGW




Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NI0C on March 31, 2013, 08:41:28 AM
N4OGW wrote:
Quote
Right here- well at least you can tell current HR:

http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-standings

There are NO individual band honor roll categories; only mode categories.
73,
Chuck  NI0C


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N4OGW on March 31, 2013, 08:54:22 AM
N4OGW wrote:
Quote
Right here- well at least you can tell current HR:

http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-standings

There are NO individual band honor roll categories; only mode categories.
73,
Chuck  NI0C


I know that. Just pointing out that if you want you can look at the numbers and draw the "HR" line wherever you like...

Tor
N4OGW


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N9KX on March 31, 2013, 09:13:50 AM

I'm not sure that ARRL has a formal Honor Roll listing for individual bands, but it would be nice if they did.  In any event, these are all worthy goals to strive for!

73,
Chuck  NI0C

Hey Chuck,

I had never seen the DXCC Award individual stamps for Honor Roll, etc. till I visited your QRZ.com page.  very cool!  8)

http://files.qrz.com/c/ni0c/DXCC6565.JPG (http://files.qrz.com/c/ni0c/DXCC6565.JPG)

73,

Rob K9AIM




Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AA6YQ on March 31, 2013, 09:18:33 AM
- only 122 DXers are on the Digital Honor Roll

- only 5 DXers are at the top of the CW Honor Roll

- only 1 DXer holds the DXCC Challenge DeSoto Cup (by definition)

- there are no DXers at the top of the Digital Honor Roll

      73,

          Dave, AA6YQ


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NI0C on March 31, 2013, 10:34:06 AM
K9AIM wrote:
Quote
Hey Chuck,

I had never seen the DXCC Award individual stamps for Honor Roll, etc. till I visited your QRZ.com page.  very cool!  Cool

http://files.qrz.com/c/ni0c/DXCC6565.JPG

TNX, Rob.  I put up that picture to celebrate the 50th anniversary of that certificate (March 11, 1963).

73,
Chuck  NI0C


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N9KX on March 31, 2013, 12:40:09 PM
K9AIM wrote:
Quote
Hey Chuck,

I had never seen the DXCC Award individual stamps for Honor Roll, etc. till I visited your QRZ.com page.  very cool!  Cool

http://files.qrz.com/c/ni0c/DXCC6565.JPG

TNX, Rob.  I put up that picture to celebrate the 50th anniversary of that certificate (March 11, 1963).

73,
Chuck  NI0C

i was only 11 months old at that time.  DX to me back then was the front door  ;D
looks like you are running out of room for stamps, although there cannot be many more to be had  ;D


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: VA2MM on December 22, 2018, 07:20:36 PM
Interesting topic because I just qualified 2 days ago for 5B DXCC (actually 8BDXCC including 12m 17m and 30m), with the receipt of my 100th 80m confirmation. As I was preparing my paperwork for the ARRL, I noticed that I also now qualify for DXCC Challenge, purely as a by-product of chasing 8B DXCC! I wasn't even paying attention to it until I happened to notice my band-entity count.  I guess I'll have to send ARRL more money in credit fees to make that one official too.

  • DXCC Phone 2014
    DXCC CW 2016
    DXCC Data (in-progress with 86/73 worked/confirmed but climbing quickly)
    5+3 Band DXCC qualified Dec 20, 2018 (to be official early Jan 2019 once the ARRL paperwork goes through)
    DXCC Challenge qualified Dec 2018 (to be official early 2019)

So I'm glad I ran across this topic, since I'm wondering what to focus on next. I'm still a long way from Honour Roll (only 272/254 worked/confirmed) and 5B WAZ seems too far out of reach for me at this point. I'm thinking 160m DXCC will be my next focus, starting with the erection of a proper antenna as soon as the snow melts enough.

Wish me luck and the best of luck to all of you in your next pursuit.

73 Mark VA2MM


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: K1VSK on December 22, 2018, 07:52:48 PM
- only 122 DXers are on the Digital Honor Roll

- only 5 DXers are at the top of the CW Honor Roll

- only 1 DXer holds the DXCC Challenge DeSoto Cup (by definition)

- there are no DXers at the top of the Digital Honor Roll

      73,

          Dave, AA6YQ
Those data don't really mean much. There are a large number of dx'ers, some of whom I know, who have achieved greater levels of success who never felt the need to submit proof to anyone else of that which they (or I) know they accomplished.

If someone has the time, the desire and the lack of anything better to do, none of these mentioned is difficult.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: K4HB on December 22, 2018, 09:31:22 PM
- only 122 DXers are on the Digital Honor Roll

- only 5 DXers are at the top of the CW Honor Roll

- only 1 DXer holds the DXCC Challenge DeSoto Cup (by definition)

- there are no DXers at the top of the Digital Honor Roll

Those data don't really mean much. There are a large number of dx'ers, some of whom I know, who have achieved greater levels of success who never felt the need to submit proof to anyone else of that which they (or I) know they accomplished.

If someone has the time, the desire and the lack of anything better to do, none of these mentioned is difficult.

I'm not doubting there's DXers out there who have a great level of success and don't care to submit their progress to any club or organization. In the first category, (Only 122 DXers are on the Digital Honor Roll) it's possible someone out there has done better and not submitted. Number 2 & 4 can be matched, but not exceeded. "Top Of" is as high as anyone can go. As for DeSoto Cup, no one has ever reached the ceiling, and I doubt anyone ever will. That means all 340 countries on all ten bands. (3400 slots) As of now, EA8AK is at the top with 3264. So yes, it's possible someone has #1 & #3 beat. But to say there's a large number of people who have exceeded those achievements, that's not likely. And to say the data doesn't mean much, and none of what is mentioned is difficult? I won't even bother to commit on that.

It should be noted that the quoted stats are from a 2013 post. Only the top Challenge spot (3264) is current.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AA6YQ on December 22, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
- only 122 DXers are on the Digital Honor Roll

- only 5 DXers are at the top of the CW Honor Roll

- only 1 DXer holds the DXCC Challenge DeSoto Cup (by definition)

- there are no DXers at the top of the Digital Honor Roll

Those data don't really mean much. There are a large number of dx'ers, some of whom I know, who have achieved greater levels of success who never felt the need to submit proof to anyone else of that which they (or I) know they accomplished.

If someone has the time, the desire and the lack of anything better to do, none of these mentioned is difficult.

You're not on any mode-specific honor role, but you claim that "Top of the Digital Honor Roll" -- which no DXer has yet attained -- is not difficult? I call bullshit.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: VK3KTT on December 22, 2018, 11:05:11 PM
i know a few people here in vk who havent applied but dont care they would be at the  320 300  mark but have paper logs and cbf digitizing them.
re 6m dxcc only a hand full have it here in vk the highest 127 approx which is from 50 years of 6m dx moving around the country to get some advantage.
so its all relevant. only a hand full at top of hour roll


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: WO7R on December 22, 2018, 11:43:06 PM
This is a large community.

There is no obvious reason to believe that the accomplishments of those who have applied for awards and those who have not are markedly different; certainly no obvious reason to suspect the non-applicants have better numbers.  In fact, if someone has high achievement, one would expect that would motivate applications for awards, if anything.  But, we don't really know either way.  We can, however, be quite suspicious of claims of routine high achievement without applying for anything.

It doesn't pass the smell test, at least.  Someone who (for instance) has achieved #1 HR on Digital, which would be a first, would have spent enough money getting there such that the award application (especially in these LOTW-heavy days) would be rounding error compared to the total expenditure.

Farther on down, perhaps there are more people who have (for instance) 332 countries, maybe mode specific, maybe not, who have not bothered to apply.  I can readily believe that there are some who don't bother with mode specific stuff.  Mixed HR may well be enough for some.

But, even given that, why should we expect they are substantially greater in number or different in accomplishment from those that do apply?

I personally don't know anyone in my DX club, at least, who has achieved 5BWAZ at the 200 zones level and has not applied for it.  

I just checked my entire "Mixed" HR in my club, and only 3 of 32 have not applied to Newington to validate their claims.  Spot checking the Phone HR members suggests that slighly fewer apply for that.

I see no indication that those who do not apply are significantly different that the rest.  That's just one club, to be sure, but it is some data at  least.  And, why should our club's results not be typical?  I can't think of an obvious reason why.

So, to the extent anyone has provided evidence, it appears that the idea that their is this huge horde of high performing DXers is kind of lacking in. . .evidence.  What little there is goes the other way.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NI0C on December 23, 2018, 04:06:52 AM
Quote
I just checked my entire "Mixed" HR in my club, and only 3 of 32 have not applied to Newington to validate their claims.  Spot checking the Phone HR members suggests that slighly fewer apply for that.

I see no indication that those who do not apply are significantly different that the rest.  That's just one club, to be sure, but it is some data at  least.  And, why should our club's results not be typical?  I can't think of an obvious reason why.

Our local DX club publishes quarterly online DXCC totals of members: http://www.mvdxcc.org/pdf/q3-2018dxccstats.pdf
The listings in red are those claimed by members; those in black are taken from the ARRL DXCC listings.  There are a lot of listings in the red category, but almost all of those members are found at least somewhere in the ARRL listings.

For several quarters, we had one guy who claimed CW totals higher than anyone else on the ARRL CW list, until someone pointed out to him that claimed CW totals had to reflect entities worked since 1975 (start date of the ARRL CW DXCC).  Another guy in our club probably qualifies for Mixed Honor Roll, but just won't part with his cards to have them checked (even though we have a DXCC card checker who attends nearly every meeting).  I think the guy must keep his cards locked in a safe deposit box.  He also does not submit data for our online listing.  But those are anomalies, I believe.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: K1VSK on December 23, 2018, 07:18:47 AM
. And to say the data doesn't mean much, and none of what is mentioned is difficult? I won't even bother to commit on that.


No need to get defensive.  I said..." if the time, desire and nothing better to do"... it's not difficult. The fact  most of us have lives beyond sitting in front of a radio is what makes it difficult. And sitting in front of a computer staring at it making qsos even more difficult.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: K7KB on December 23, 2018, 08:36:54 AM
Quote
I just checked my entire "Mixed" HR in my club, and only 3 of 32 have not applied to Newington to validate their claims.  Spot checking the Phone HR members suggests that slighly fewer apply for that.

I see no indication that those who do not apply are significantly different that the rest.  That's just one club, to be sure, but it is some data at  least.  And, why should our club's results not be typical?  I can't think of an obvious reason why.

Our local DX club publishes quarterly online DXCC totals of members: http://www.mvdxcc.org/pdf/q3-2018dxccstats.pdf
The listings in red are those claimed by members; those in black are taken from the ARRL DXCC listings.  There are a lot of listings in the red category, but almost all of those members are found at least somewhere in the ARRL listings.

For several quarters, we had one guy who claimed CW totals higher than anyone else on the ARRL CW list, until someone pointed out to him that claimed CW totals had to reflect entities worked since 1975 (start date of the ARRL CW DXCC).  Another guy in our club probably qualifies for Mixed Honor Roll, but just won't part with his cards to have them checked (even though we have a DXCC card checker who attends nearly every meeting).  I think the guy must keep his cards locked in a safe deposit box.  He also does not submit data for our online listing.  But those are anomalies, I believe.

I have quite a few pre-1975 CW QSO's. It's kinda strange how they work. They count for the band, and that you worked the country but mode is kinda in limbo, especially for electronic logging where you are tracking award totals.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: NI0C on December 23, 2018, 01:53:08 PM
Quote
I have quite a few pre-1975 CW QSO's. It's kinda strange how they work. They count for the band, and that you worked the country but mode is kinda in limbo, especially for electronic logging where you are tracking award totals.
I guess that depends on what logging program you are using.  I also have many CW QSO's dated between 1959 and 1969, and DXLab's DXKeeper and DXView give me correct CW DXCC counts.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AA6YQ on December 23, 2018, 01:59:14 PM
. And to say the data doesn't mean much, and none of what is mentioned is difficult? I won't even bother to commit on that.


No need to get defensive.  I said..." if the time, desire and nothing better to do"... it's not difficult. The fact  most of us have lives beyond sitting in front of a radio is what makes it difficult. And sitting in front of a computer staring at it making qsos even more difficult.

Sitting in front of a radio with a competent antenna system will get you to 270-290 DXCC entities. Getting the rest requires knowing the behavioral patterns of operators in rarely-active DXCC entities, knowing when DXCC entities without resident operators are being activated, and understanding shortpath and longpath HF propagation from your QTH throughout all four seasons.

Your claim than an objective no DXer has yet accomplished is "not difficult" has destroyed your credibility on this topic.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AA6YQ on December 23, 2018, 02:08:33 PM
I guess that depends on what logging program you are using.  I also have many CW QSO's dated between 1959 and 1969, and DXLab's DXKeeper and DXView give me correct CW DXCC counts.

CW QSOs made before 1975-01-01 were granted "partial credit" by the ARRL DXCC desk: credit for the DXCC entity, and credit for the entity-band. The DXCC desk would also grant "partial credit" to QSOs submitted before they began using computers to maintain each user's award progress. For example, you might send them a QSL card confirming a 7X station on 80m RTTY, but if you submitted this QSO for Mixed credit, no credit would be recorded for 7X-80m or 7X-RTTY. To accurately track DXCC award progress, logging applications must correctly handle QSOs to which "partial credit" has been granted.

Note: if you have a QSL card to which "partial credit" has been granted, you can send it back to the ARRL's DXCC desk and they will grant it full DXCC credit.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: K1VSK on December 23, 2018, 02:36:04 PM
. And to say the data doesn't mean much, and none of what is mentioned is difficult? I won't even bother to commit on that.


No need to get defensive.  I said..." if the time, desire and nothing better to do"... it's not difficult. The fact  most of us have lives beyond sitting in front of a radio is what makes it difficult. And sitting in front of a computer staring at it making qsos even more difficult.

Sitting in front of a radio with a competent antenna system will get you to 270-290 DXCC entities. Getting the rest requires knowing the behavioral patterns of operators in rarely-active DXCC entities, knowing when DXCC entities without resident operators are being activated, and understanding shortpath and longpath HF propagation from your QTH throughout all four seasons.

Your claim than an objective no DXer has yet accomplished is "not difficult" has destroyed your credibility on this topic.


I wasn't worried how much credibility you place on it.

To review the distinction - teaching my dog to speak Farsi isn't difficult. It's impossible. The concepts are mutually exclusive. As it applies to any award which may be unachievable, that isn't difficult. Get it?


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W4AMP on December 23, 2018, 02:48:30 PM
IMHO the ARRL's change of DXCC rules to allow remote operation killed the value of the award. YMMV


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: KC0W on December 23, 2018, 03:08:57 PM
IMHO the ARRL's change of DXCC rules to allow remote operation killed the value of the award. YMMV

 "CAT cable amateurs". Without an Internet connection a lot of thumb twiddling goes on...........Long live the signal flow of: Radio - Coax - Antenna.


                                                                       Tom KC0W   


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W4AMP on December 23, 2018, 03:19:21 PM
Merry Xmas Tom, hope you are well.

Made it to 303 Phone confirmed, have 10 more to get checked. But now that you can work remote through a station on either coast ruined it for me.

The removal of pecuniary interest allows fortunes to be made by owners of remote stations.

You can now get on the honor role and not even own a radio.  :-\


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N5UD on December 23, 2018, 04:10:48 PM
I need a "good" P5 CW for all in CW. I may not live long enough to get that one. Heck it might even be a delete, when the Koreas unify. Before I can work a P5 on CW.

73 and GL N5UD


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AA6YQ on December 23, 2018, 04:11:43 PM
To review the distinction - teaching my dog to speak Farsi isn't difficult. It's impossible. The concepts are mutually exclusive. As it applies to any award which may be unachievable, that isn't difficult. Get it?

The first rule of escaping from a deep hole is to stop digging.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: WA4DOU on December 23, 2018, 07:07:49 PM
Do you guys ever ponder which of the major DX awards grant the most bragging rights?

I'd put them in this order, from easiest to most difficult:

5B-DXCC
DX Honor Roll
5B-WAZ

Do those of you on HR have 5B-WAZ in your sights? After these, what's next?

John AE5X
http://www.ae5x.com/blog



John, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment. I disagree with those who think these pursuits are easy. Each require a degree of effort and time to achieve and that can vary for each person and their circumstances. For most of us, time and tenacity will prevail.

With 7 more ATNO entities to go, I'll get back to working on 5BWAZ. I need 18 more zones, 7 on 80, 7 on 40 and 4 on 10. Might not make it if the future is bad for 10 meters.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: WA4DOU on December 23, 2018, 07:32:15 PM
IMHO the ARRL's change of DXCC rules to allow remote operation killed the value of the award. YMMV


Sorry you feel that way. It didn't affect the value of the award for many, perhaps even most of us, that have no interest or desire to go there.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N5PG on December 23, 2018, 08:04:18 PM
Do you guys ever ponder which of the major DX awards grant the most bragging rights?

I'd put them in this order, from easiest to most difficult:

5B-DXCC
DX Honor Roll
5B-WAZ

Do those of you on HR have 5B-WAZ in your sights? After these, what's next?

John AE5X
http://www.ae5x.com/blog



John, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment. I disagree with those who think these pursuits are easy. Each require a degree of effort and time to achieve and that can vary for each person and their circumstances. For most of us, time and tenacity will prevail.

With 7 more ATNO entities to go, I'll get back to working on 5BWAZ. I need 18 more zones, 7 on 80, 7 on 40 and 4 on 10. Might not make it if the future is bad for 10 meters.

That's about the order I'd say. Need P5, Scarboro and Pratas for #1HR.  80m DXCC took me about 10yrs from here.

As for 5BWAZ, I'm at around 189 overall. Need 22 and 23 for 40m (never ever even heard either), the rest on 80m which I doubt I'll ever get from this QTH.

Zero interest in anything like RHR.

73, Happy Christmas to all, Paul


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W2LO on December 24, 2018, 06:19:59 AM
 With 5BWAZ it's just a question of whether or not you're there when the needed zone(s) show up. When I applied for 5BWAZ I only had a single contact on 80 with zones 18, 23 and 24. Since then I've stumbled on a few more zone 18 and 24 QSOs but still have only one z23 on 80. I just happened to hear JT1CO on 80 one morning with a good signal but I have heard him at least twice since then.

 But work what you can when you can. My very last zone was 18 on 10 meters (somehow I had overlooked needing it), something I couldn't do now with current conditions so get them when and how you can. You'll get them!

 


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N5VYS on December 24, 2018, 06:53:45 AM
A lot easier now than twenty years ago. And Merry Christmas all!

Obie N5VYS


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: K1VSK on December 24, 2018, 07:33:29 AM
To review the distinction - teaching my dog to speak Farsi isn't difficult. It's impossible. The concepts are mutually exclusive. As it applies to any award which may be unachievable, that isn't difficult. Get it?

The first rule of escaping from a deep hole is to stop digging.
I see you ascribe to the motto - when you can't dispute the message, attack the messenger


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: WO7R on December 24, 2018, 08:05:58 AM
Quote
I see you ascribe to the motto - when you can't dispute the message, attack the messenger

No, he's doing nothing of the kind.  He's pointing out that your argument is weak and doubling down on it is not helpful.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W6OU on December 24, 2018, 09:38:48 AM
Need P5, Scarboro and Pratas for #1HR.
That's the exact three I need.  All so geographically near but......


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N5UD on December 24, 2018, 10:24:53 AM
REMOTES ! That's it. I need to find a JA or BY remote so I can finally get a good P5 on CW. If P5 ever shows up again.
Merry Christmas Y'all.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AA6YQ on December 24, 2018, 11:37:37 AM
To review the distinction - teaching my dog to speak Farsi isn't difficult. It's impossible. The concepts are mutually exclusive. As it applies to any award which may be unachievable, that isn't difficult. Get it?

The first rule of escaping from a deep hole is to stop digging.
I see you ascribe to the motto - when you can't dispute the message, attack the messenger

In response to a post describing several DXCC award levels that have rarely been achieved and one DXCC award level that has not yet been achieved, you blithely posted

If someone has the time, the desire and the lack of anything better to do, none of these mentioned is difficult.

According to the published ARRL DXCC standings (http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-standings), you have not applied for any of the awards cited. You provided no evidence substantiating your claim.

When challenged, you attempting to wriggle out by conflating "not yet been achieved" with "impossible", and then claiming that "impossible" and "difficult" are mutually exclusive. Following your semantics, it would be correct to say that neither boiling the ocean nor freezing the sun would be difficult to accomplish tomorrow afternoon. This "logic" is even more ridiculous than the claim in your first post that "none of these mentioned is difficult."

What nonsense will you post next in your obviously desperate attempts to avoid acknowledging an error?

By the way, 17 ops are one entity away from reaching the "Top of the Digital Mode Honor Roll"; if the upcoming DXpedition to Bouvet is successful, one or more of these ops will likely achieve it. "Not yet been achieved" is not the same as "impossible".



Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: K1VSK on December 25, 2018, 08:31:17 AM

According to the published ARRL DXCC standings (http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-standings), you have not applied for any of the awards cited. You provided no evidence substantiating your claim.


you would be better off writing about something you know.
Not that I really care but I liked the top of the HR number 1 plaque which is hanging on my office wall. If I can do it in my free time while raising a family and running a business competing for time in other hobbies like golf and sailing,  anyone can. It's not that hard (read -difficult).

If you find it otherwise, you may have a more insidious problem.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AA6YQ on December 25, 2018, 01:45:11 PM

According to the published ARRL DXCC standings (http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-standings), you have not applied for any of the awards cited. You provided no evidence substantiating your claim.


you would be better off writing about something you know.
Not that I really care but I liked the top of the HR number 1 plaque which is hanging on my office wall. If I can do it in my free time while raising a family and running a business competing for time in other hobbies like golf and sailing,  anyone can. It's not that hard (read -difficult).

If you find it otherwise, you may have a more insidious problem.

Yes, you have accomplished "Top of the Mixed Honor Roll"; congratulations.

However, you have not even applied for any of the accomplishments you have characterized as "not difficult"  - the CW Honor Roll, and the Digital Honor Roll.  Continued hand-waving on your part is not evidence that these are milestones are "not difficult".

Speaking from personal experience, achieving the Digital Honor Roll was significantly more difficult than achieving "Top of the Mixed Honor Roll".


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AF5CC on December 25, 2018, 04:50:54 PM
It's not really DX, but I think the FFMA (all 488 US grid squares on VHF - http://www.arrl.org/ffma) must be one of the more difficult, life-long awards one could earn. There have only been 5 recipients, and none in the last 2.5 years.

Another one is working all 48 CONUS states on 2 meters without using EME.  Only a few have done that also.  I am at 40 currently.

73 John AF5CC


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AF5CC on December 25, 2018, 04:55:28 PM
They have a funny way of defining "All"! Maybe it's like what the definition of "is" is...

John AE5X


Kind of like the Worked All States award where you can get it by only working 49 states.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N0UN on December 25, 2018, 05:16:48 PM
Do you guys ever ponder which of the major DX awards grant the most bragging rights?

No.

N0UN


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N5VYS on December 25, 2018, 05:31:49 PM
I'm just mixing radio!

Obie N5VYS


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N1UR on December 25, 2018, 05:33:56 PM
For me, 5BWAZ has been the toughest.  Need 5 zones on 80M, have the rest.

Missing Bouvet and P5 on DXCC and a a couple of SSB and CW countries.  Took me 20 years to hit Honor Roll.

5BDXCC or close to it is achievable in a contest weekend.

73

Ed  N1UR


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: AF5CC on December 25, 2018, 05:53:29 PM
I have 5BDXCC (actually 8 band DXCC). 

I have 5BWAZ at the 160 zone level. 

Not sure I will ever make honor roll.  Achieving that takes more than just time and effort, you need to have a station capable of working some of the really tough paths.

73 John AF5CC


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: KY6R on December 25, 2018, 07:05:25 PM
For me it was what was "enough" to feel like I met my goals. (YMMV).

Honor Roll - Mixed was 50% of my DXing goal
9BDXCC completed the last 50% of y DXing goal

For me - HR plus 9BDXCC (with 160M as the last band) was enough for me

Now I enjoy all kinds of other aspects of the hobby. DXCC and DX-ing were just one part / phase of what I have been interested in in this great hobby of ours.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: N1UR on December 26, 2018, 03:48:51 AM
My comment on 5BWAZ was in actually achieving the award at the 200 zone level.

You don't have to work P5 on 80M to get Honor Roll.  But you do have to work zone 23 on 80M to get 5BWAZ.

73

Ed  N1UR


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: W1VT on December 26, 2018, 07:38:29 AM

Not sure I will ever make honor roll.  Achieving that takes more than just time and effort, you need to have a station capable of working some of the really tough paths.

73 John AF5CC

I'm at 322 mixed, 317 cw (current countries).  Location makes a big difference.  The hardest countries have been TX3X, Kh1/kh7z, 4W, and JD1 Ogasawara, all worked with basic wire antennas from New England !  The only miss in the past couple of years has been ZS8.  Baker was hard because of the band is open but they are now working Europe only issue but I did get my contact.

Zak W1VT


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: LA7DFA on December 27, 2018, 05:47:41 AM
The good thing about this hobby, is that everyone can set their own goals.
I am having a blast working DX on many bands and modes, using moderate wire antennas.
The most interesting bands <imo> are 160 and 6m.  Thats because its hard, and propagations still has some mysteries and timing.

I have not really tried to work WAZ on 160 yet, but still have 37 zones, due to DXCC chasing.  10B_DXCC confirmed, but not applied for.


Title: RE: DX award degree of difficulty?
Post by: WO7R on December 28, 2018, 11:10:26 AM
Well, in the FWIW category, here's some recent accomplishments

I (re)worked 5BDXCC from the start of 2015 through the end of 2017.
I (re)worked 305 countries from 2013 when I got my station fully operational in Arizona.
I (re)worked 198 DXCC zones since 2012 when I got started in Arizona.

In terms of elapsed time from the start, including my "popgun station" Minnesota years, I got to 5BDXCC first, Honor Roll second, and 5BWAZ third.

The reworking is perhaps a bit telling (it represents "worked"; my data doesn track "confirmed" well since much of it was rework, but it would be pretty close).

It suggests that some of what makes the awards hard is different once we have done it once versus the pain of learning how from "scratch".  Each of the "reworks" took much less time than the comparable original achievement, even though I wasn't all that focused on doing so.

It also suggests that if we had the right mentoring, and put up a good station on 80 meters right away, that Honor Roll is harder than 5BWAZ.  But, IME and in that of folks I know, achieving HR is usually ahead of 5BWAZ and a lot of that (of course) has to do with learning how to put up a station on 80 that works over the poles.  Some DXers, in fact never put up much on 80 to start with.  For those, it is just imaginable that they will reach HR before the objectively easier 5BDXCC, never mind 190+ zones on 5BWAZ.