eHam

eHam Forums => DXing => Topic started by: NU1O on March 26, 2013, 03:14:53 PM



Title: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 26, 2013, 03:14:53 PM
I was just reading KA3NRX's question about the MFJ apartment antenna for when he moves into his duplex.  Ordinarily I just chuckle when somebody suggests camouflaging a ham radio antenna as an American flag but W1VT cited the "Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2006" as a legal reason to show the American flag. That act of Congess was passed to make sure Americans could display their flag, not a flagpole, and it most certainly was not passed as a way to circumvent a CC&R or HOA restriction using a flag as a disguise for an antenna.

My question is a simple one:  Is anybody offended by the practice of disguising an Amateur Radio antenna as an American flag?

KA3NRX and others who move to antenna restricted areas do so knowing ahead of time they aren't supposed to install outdoor antennas.  Would it be advisable uder those conditions to simply rely on an indoor antenna as it appears he is planning to do?

A few months back I asked a question in this forum as to whether I should lay down some ground radials in my neighbor's backyard when he moves in a few years but before the new owner has moved in. Opinions were mixed but I decided against the idea for two reasons. First of all, it is not my property, and secondly, as somebody wisely pointed out, the radials could surface over time and there is always the chance of an accident for which I'd be responsible.

My question for the group is are there hams who have a problem with using an American flag as camouflage for an outdoor antenna?  Also, how would it look if it became public knowledge that hundreds, or thousands of hams, had erected flagpoles not so much for patriotic reasons but because it allowed them to have a more efficient outdoor antenna which in most of these cases is specifically prohibited?


73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU4B on March 26, 2013, 03:24:36 PM
Isn't the flagpole the disguise, not the flag?

Short answer - No, I don't see the issue here.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 26, 2013, 03:35:56 PM
Isn't the flagpole the disguise, not the flag?

Short answer - No, I don't see the issue here.

Go erect a pole in your restricted yard without a flag and see how far you get.  The American flag is what is used to "sell" this to the neighbors.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: W2IRT on March 26, 2013, 03:42:11 PM
So long as the flag itself is not being disrespected I can't see a problem from anybody else's point of view (personally I don't give a damn, but many do and you sure don't want to attract any unwanted attention). That means lowering it at night or lighting it, and all the other related flag-related miscellania.

That said, you may be liable for breach of contract if your lease specifies no antennae, or worse, transmitting not permitted on premises. But honestly, unless you plan to run power and an improperly grounded station, you should be able to have a modicum of success, again, provided a big radial field is installed. Good luck with that, eh.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: K6UJ on March 26, 2013, 03:46:49 PM
I dont see the issue either.  I have the American flag flying from the top of my
mast that projects above my tribander.  I first put the flag up on the 4th of July and took it down one week later.  My neighbor asked why I took it down, said he likes it flying.
I put it back up and had it up daily for about 5 months.  The flag was getting raggedy around the edges so I took it down until I could get another.  Two weeks later I still hadn't put up a new flag and several more neighbors asked where the flag was.  I put up a new one and have been flying one ever since.  Is anyone offended by my having a dual purpose antenna structure, one for my ham antenna, and one for flying the American flag ?  No of course not, actually the opposite has occurred.  

Bob
K6UJ


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 26, 2013, 03:55:15 PM
I dont see the issue either.  I have the American flag flying from the top of my
mast that projects above my tribander.  I first put the flag up on the 4th of July and took it down one week later.  My neighbor asked why I took it down, said he likes it flying.
I put it back up and had it up daily for about 5 months.  The flag was getting raggedy around the edges so I took it down until I could get another.  Two weeks later I still hadn't put up a new flag and several more neighbors asked where the flag was.  I put up a new one and have been flying one ever since.  Is anyone offended by my having a dual purpose antenna structure, one for my ham antenna, and one for flying the American flag ?  No of course not, actually the opposite has occurred.  

Bob
K6UJ
Bob,

It doesn't sound like you are in an area which restricts antennas since you have a visible tribander.

I am specifically talking about people who erect a flagpole antenna so they may get around a restriction. 

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU4B on March 26, 2013, 04:15:01 PM
I dont see the issue either.  I have the American flag flying from the top of my
mast that projects above my tribander.  I first put the flag up on the 4th of July and took it down one week later.  My neighbor asked why I took it down, said he likes it flying.
I put it back up and had it up daily for about 5 months.  The flag was getting raggedy around the edges so I took it down until I could get another.  Two weeks later I still hadn't put up a new flag and several more neighbors asked where the flag was.  I put up a new one and have been flying one ever since.  Is anyone offended by my having a dual purpose antenna structure, one for my ham antenna, and one for flying the American flag ?  No of course not, actually the opposite has occurred.  

Bob
K6UJ
Bob,

It doesn't sound like you are in an area which restricts antennas since you have a visible tribander.

I am specifically talking about people who erect a flagpole antenna so they may get around a restriction. 

73,

Chris/NU1O


Maybe you need to think about this differently - isn't this a great reason to display the flag?


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 26, 2013, 04:57:46 PM

Maybe you need to think about this differently - isn't this a great reason to display the flag?

No, not in my opinion.  Somebody who never displayed a flag in their adult life and then suddenly decides to erect one so they may have an outdoor antenna in a restricted area is nothing but a hypocrite as far as I'm concerned. 

An American flag should be displayed for patriotic reasons not as camouflage for a stealth antenna.  Also, as W2IRT stated, there is a lot more to displaying a flag than hoisting it up and letting it fly in the wind.

The articles that have plans for flagpole antennae should at least include the proper way to display and care for an American flag.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N4CR on March 26, 2013, 05:20:34 PM
Somebody who never displayed a flag in their adult life and then suddenly decides to erect one so they may have an outdoor antenna in a restricted area is nothing but a hypocrite as far as I'm concerned.

Flying the flag as an excuse to do something else is still flying the flag. As far as everyone in the community is concerned, it becomes their neighborhood flag and a source of pride. It might even become a source of pride for the person flying it. Is any part of that bad? Can you learn to be patriotic, or must you be born with it? How pure do you want their thoughts to be before their flag goes up?

Expecting someone to be patriotic before they raise the flag is like expecting someone to be perfect before they go to church.

A very wise man asked the crowd many centuries ago, "Who amongst you will throw the first stone?". I guess that would be you...


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: WD4ELG on March 26, 2013, 05:30:23 PM
As usual, Chris, your post gives us a lot to think about.  Thanks for that.  And I agree 100% that if a ham is going to use a flagpole as an antenna, at least pay the modicum of respect and fly the flag properly and care for it in the correct manner.  Good suggestion about including instructions with flag pole antennas.

I was an Eagle Scout (learned a LOT about flag decorum), but I was a ham even before that.  When I was first licensed in 1977, I never considered using a flagpole as an antenna.  The flagpole had one purpose - show the flag properly and with pride.

The concept of flagpole antennas appears to have arisen since the whole CC&R coverage has increased.  Or at least the popularity has exploded since the late 1990's.  (The whole CC&R issue will never end.)

What is ironic to me is that CC&R's, which the ham claims are an infringement upon his personal freedom, are being circumvented with a vertical antenna disguised as a flagpole flying our American flag...which is a symbol of personal freedom.  

N4CR, now I am worried.  We have gone from discussing the flying flags to talking about stone-throwing on this thread.  Since my aim is off and I bruise easily, I better finish this thread and head for cover.  :)

Perhaps a better flag to be flown on the flagpole would be a "don't tread on me" flag for the CC&R ham, if he wants to give the "middle finger" to the HOA.

(Yes, I live in a CC&R neighborhood.  No, I don't have a flagpole antenna.  Yes, flagpoles are allowed in my neighborhood.  No, I would not use a flagpole as an antenna....just not something I would do, there are easier ways to get on the air.)


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: K6UJ on March 26, 2013, 06:06:25 PM
I dont see the issue either.  I have the American flag flying from the top of my
mast that projects above my tribander.  I first put the flag up on the 4th of July and took it down one week later.  My neighbor asked why I took it down, said he likes it flying.
I put it back up and had it up daily for about 5 months.  The flag was getting raggedy around the edges so I took it down until I could get another.  Two weeks later I still hadn't put up a new flag and several more neighbors asked where the flag was.  I put up a new one and have been flying one ever since.  Is anyone offended by my having a dual purpose antenna structure, one for my ham antenna, and one for flying the American flag ?  No of course not, actually the opposite has occurred.  

Bob
K6UJ
Bob,

It doesn't sound like you are in an area which restricts antennas since you have a visible tribander.

I am specifically talking about people who erect a flagpole antenna so they may get around a restriction. 

73,

Chris/NU1O



Chris,

I think you are digging yourself in a hole.   You asked if someone would be offended
by this, really ?   Whether I lived in a non antenna restricted area or not I would still be proud to fly the American flag from my antenna or antenna support.  Its not about the restrictions............

Bob
K6UJ


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N4CR on March 26, 2013, 07:29:43 PM
N4CR, now I am worried.  We have gone from discussing the flying flags to talking about stone-throwing on this thread.  Since my aim is off and I bruise easily, I better finish this thread and head for cover.  :)

Sorry, It was an allusion to a bible quote that essentially says only somebody without fault has the right to judge the fault of others. In this case, someone who undoubtedly has faults of his own judging another person flying the flag to hide an antenna.

We are talking about morality here, not facts, so there is no black and white/right or wrong. Morality for honorable people is quite different from morality for dishonorable people. And in 2013, in this gimme gimme gimme United States, morality has been hogtied and left for dead for the most part.

Too bad. This used to be an honorable nation.

But when we have an "elected" government that is printing 1.8 billion dollars a month to inflate the money supply and steal from all of us, some guy running an antenna under a flag pole seems so inconsequential as to be non-existent.

Or maybe I'm missing something.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: KY6R on March 26, 2013, 07:39:22 PM
Fly the Jolly Roger and pace back and forth on your front lawn singing Yo Ho Ho at the top of your lungs. Talk to an imaginary parrot on your shoulder.

No one will mess with you.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: AF5CC on March 26, 2013, 09:54:42 PM
What is ironic to me is that CC&R's, which the ham claims are an infringement upon his personal freedom, are being circumvented with a vertical antenna disguised as a flagpole flying our American flag...which is a symbol of personal freedom.  

I can think of nothing more appropriate!

John AF5CC


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N9KX on March 26, 2013, 11:24:07 PM
Maybe you need to think about this differently - isn't this a great reason to display the flag?

Bingo!  It seems to me when a ham's basic right to pursue happiness is infringed upon by some HOA that does not appreciate the need for a ham to put up an antenna on his own property -- using a flagpole to circumvent the restriction is very appropriate.  Patriotic even  ;)


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: W1VT on March 27, 2013, 06:44:37 AM
Instead of putting up a modest Rohn 25 tower, put up a big Rohn 55 tower so everyone in the neighborhood can see the American Flag displayed properly--way up in the air, not hidden in the trees!

I have a picture of my flagpole proudly displayed on my QRZ.com page--it even has a solar panel, car battery, and LED spotlight to properly illuminate it at night!

Zack W1VT


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: KB2FCV on March 27, 2013, 07:18:55 AM
I think so long as you keep proper flag etiquette, I don't see a problem with it.



Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N2RJ on March 27, 2013, 01:44:23 PM

My question is a simple one:  Is anybody offended by the practice of disguising an Amateur Radio antenna as an American flag?

NO.

America was founded by people who disobeyed unjust laws.

Using the flag pole to support an antenna is like that.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: K8CMO on March 27, 2013, 02:06:33 PM
Working DX from a condo is not as hopeless as some have implied.  I live in a condo now and have only a G5RV with antenna tuner.  My location is not very good either.  I live in a river valley at only about 600 feet above sea level.  I use a Kenwood TS-590 with an ALS-600 when needed.  My G5RV is strung into the trees behind my condo, and I have not failed to get through a pileup yet in a reasonable period of time.  In fact, in a few cases I have been one of the first stations worked in a pileup.  I worked H40T, XR0YG, TX5K, etc. through good pileups.  I continue to add new ones to my 345 total (326 current).


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: K3VAT on March 27, 2013, 02:11:58 PM
...
Is anybody offended by the practice of disguising an Amateur Radio antenna as an American flag?
...

No Chris, no problem here (actually the question is a bit miss-worded, but folks seems to understand what you mean).

The flag pole serves a dual function: flying the Stars-and-Stripes and as a vertical antenna.  K3VAT




Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: K7KB on March 27, 2013, 02:21:28 PM
Fly the Jolly Roger and pace back and forth on your front lawn singing Yo Ho Ho at the top of your lungs. Talk to an imaginary parrot on your shoulder.

No one will mess with you.

LOL - Completely understandable and I concur :)

John K7KB


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 27, 2013, 03:49:31 PM
NO.

America was founded by people who disobeyed unjust laws.

Using the flag pole to support an antenna is like that.

Hi Ryan,

The US split from England over an opressive law which affected just about every citizen.  The oppresion was taxation without representation. 

The flagpole issue only affects a small number of people and it would be difficult to argue the restrictions placed upon the land by CC&Rs are oppressive otherwise they wouldn't stand a court challenge in the first place.  Do you think enough people are incensed over this issue to go prison or start a second American revolution?  That's the analogy you are making.

Keep in mind when one disobeys a law(s) one must be prepared to face the consequences so it shouldn't be done cavalierly. The Founding Fathers signed their death warrants when they affixed their names to the Declaration of Independence.  Had the Colonies lost the War of Independence the signers would have been convicted of treason and hung.

I am normally sympathetic to hams that live under HOA's but what caught my attention in this case was that the ham moving to the duplex was thinking about using an indoor antenna and another ham suggested he use a flagpole antenna since the US flag's display is protected by the Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2006.  I'm sure that act was not passed with any intention it would allow amateur radio operator's the ability to help disguise a ham radio antenna as an American flag. That was my only reason for creating the topic.

CC&R's can have many restrictions. To a ham an outdoor antenna can be very important but to an animal lover the CC&R might mean no dog or cat, or a size limit on the pet. There are even developments which prohibit children under a certain age. So long as the restrictions are not unconstitutional (such as barring minorities) courts have upheld CC&R's.  Also, they are volunatry. Unless a ham is no longer in charge of his/her life they can't be forced to move to a home with an antenna restriction.

I don't think breaking an antenna restriction is a serious matter but on the other hand I don't think having a cat or dog in a restricted area is a very big deal, either. I just hope the hams who violate a CC&R to erect an antenna are understaning if they find out a neighbor is breaking a rule for something they find dear.

73,

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: AA4PB on March 27, 2013, 04:08:43 PM
What is the purpose of the antenna restriction? It is supposedly because the neighbors don't want to look antennas all over the property. If they can't see the antenna (because it also surves as a flag pole) then what difference does it make? How does it harm the neighbors?

What if I come up with some magic paint that makes the antenna totally invisible so nobody can even tell it's there? Is that still immoral because the HOA says no antennas?

The HOA says no antennas so what about the neighbors cell phone - it contains an antenna. What if he has a weather radio with a 1-foot whip on it? That's an antenna. The car parked in his driveway has an antenna on it. An what about the satellite dish on his roof?


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: AC4RD on March 27, 2013, 04:40:46 PM
The US split from England over an opressive law which affected just about every citizen.  The oppresion was taxation without representation. 

The flagpole issue only affects a small number of people and it would be difficult to argue the restrictions placed upon the land by CC&Rs are oppressive otherwise they wouldn't stand a court challenge in the first place.

Chris, you are entirely right.  And one other facet of your argument is this:  the HOA restrictions have nothing to do with LAW as such.  HOA CCRs are a matter of a civil agreement and a signed contract.  People who buy houses with CCRs do so voluntarily--it has nothing to do with law, it's an agreement they agreed to up front.  That doesn't mean it isn't negotiable ... but it's still not an issue with a *law* that may or may not be challenged, it's a voluntarily agreed upon contract.  Big difference, I think.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N4CR on March 27, 2013, 07:17:28 PM
... but it's still not an issue with a *law* that may or may not be challenged, it's a voluntarily agreed upon contract.

A contract that violates a state or federal law is held invalid in a lot of cases. For example, if you signed a contract to move into an HOA and one of the provisions was that you would not vote until you reached the age of 55, it would be unenforceable in any court of law. There are many other examples. Too bad that PRB1 federal law isn't one of them...

But you are correct. it's a civil issue between the HOA and the violator and it's a voluntary program. Nobody HAS to buy a house in a HOA neighborhood.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N2RJ on March 27, 2013, 07:19:09 PM
NO.

America was founded by people who disobeyed unjust laws.

Using the flag pole to support an antenna is like that.

Hi Ryan,

The US split from England over an opressive law which affected just about every citizen.  The oppresion was taxation without representation. 

The flagpole issue only affects a small number of people and it would be difficult to argue the restrictions placed upon the land by CC&Rs are oppressive otherwise they wouldn't stand a court challenge in the first place.  Do you think enough people are incensed over this issue to go prison or start a second American revolution?  That's the analogy you are making.

Keep in mind when one disobeys a law(s) one must be prepared to face the consequences so it shouldn't be done cavalierly. The Founding Fathers signed their death warrants when they affixed their names to the Declaration of Independence.  Had the Colonies lost the War of Independence the signers would have been convicted of treason and hung.

I am normally sympathetic to hams that live under HOA's but what caught my attention in this case was that the ham moving to the duplex was thinking about using an indoor antenna and another ham suggested he use a flagpole antenna since the US flag's display is protected by the Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2006.  I'm sure that act was not passed with any intention it would allow amateur radio operator's the ability to help disguise a ham radio antenna as an American flag. That was my only reason for creating the topic.

CC&R's can have many restrictions. To a ham an outdoor antenna can be very important but to an animal lover the CC&R might mean no dog or cat, or a size limit on the pet. There are even developments which prohibit children under a certain age. So long as the restrictions are not unconstitutional (such as barring minorities) courts have upheld CC&R's.  Also, they are volunatry. Unless a ham is no longer in charge of his/her life they can't be forced to move to a home with an antenna restriction.

I don't think breaking an antenna restriction is a serious matter but on the other hand I don't think having a cat or dog in a restricted area is a very big deal, either. I just hope the hams who violate a CC&R to erect an antenna are understaning if they find out a neighbor is breaking a rule for something they find dear.

73,

Chris/NU1O



Did you seriously waste that long reply on replying to an obviously tongue in cheek post? Go lighten up and work a new one.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 27, 2013, 08:19:44 PM

Did you seriously waste that long reply on replying to an obviously tongue in cheek post? Go lighten up and work a new one.

You have written so many dumb posts in this forum that you'll have to excuse me for being confused.

I don't think your tongue was in your cheek, I think it was up a lower body orifice.  ;D

My only regret is spending time trying to get you the VU7M QSL. That is time I wish I had back and hadn't wasted on you.

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 27, 2013, 08:57:56 PM
What is the purpose of the antenna restriction? It is supposedly because the neighbors don't want to look antennas all over the property. If they can't see the antenna (because it also surves as a flag pole) then what difference does it make? How does it harm the neighbors?

You don't have a written biography and I have no idea how old you are but those that create CC&Rs claim the purpose is to protect property values and since one's home is usually their largest investment you can't blame people for trying to protect their property's value.

If you ever get the chance take a look at an old movie from the 1950's like "On the Waterfront" or any movie showing a big urban city with many apartment buildings. There were as many TV antennae on a roof as there were apartments and it was not a pretty site.

Before we had cable or satellite TV almost all of us had an outdoor TV antenna. As a radio amateur I never thought they were ugly but other people did, and when they started to rust and fall into disrepair even I would agree they became unsightly.

73,

Chris/NU1O






Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 27, 2013, 10:41:26 PM
Chris, you are entirely right.  And one other facet of your argument is this:  the HOA restrictions have nothing to do with LAW as such.  HOA CCRs are a matter of a civil agreement and a signed contract.  People who buy houses with CCRs do so voluntarily--it has nothing to do with law, it's an agreement they agreed to up front.  That doesn't mean it isn't negotiable ... but it's still not an issue with a *law* that may or may not be challenged, it's a voluntarily agreed upon contract.  Big difference, I think.


I don't know how negotiable they are but you are correct in that they are an agreement made by owners who have a common interest in a property development and as Dan, WD4ELG, points out they will be with us for a very long time since they pass with each successive sale.  My family's law firm has handled some cases regarding CC&Rs but about the only way they can be challenged is if enforcement is arbitrary. The best defense if not to join one in the first place.

This is not a small matter. With the growth of common property there must be tens of millions affected by these things.

Are there an old "X-File" fans in the group?  Now that I've given this some thought I recall a specific "X-File" episode which spoofed CC&Rs. It seems the head of the HOA brought home a "monster" from one of his trips to the Orient. If one didn't obey all the rules - and there were hundreds of rules - the monster would strke.  Agents Mulder and Scully were assigned to the case and moved into the neighborhood as husband and wife. The monster eventually killed the evil head of the HOA and the agents got rid of the monster which I assumed was a metaphor for the CC&R.  I usually preferred the alien conspiracy episodes, though.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N2RJ on March 28, 2013, 05:56:26 AM

Did you seriously waste that long reply on replying to an obviously tongue in cheek post? Go lighten up and work a new one.

You have written so many dumb posts in this forum that you'll have to excuse me for being confused.

I don't think your tongue was in your cheek, I think it was up a lower body orifice.  ;D

My only regret is spending time trying to get you the VU7M QSL. That is time I wish I had back and hadn't wasted on you.

Chris/NU1O



You wasted what? You yourself told me you didn't have anything to do with it... Last I checked I worked them with my rig and antennas and sent my greenstamps and used my postage to mail the letter. I had no idea that QSL was something you had to have a third party negotiate on your behalf unless you were a QSL manager.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: WD4ELG on March 28, 2013, 07:23:36 AM
Chris, I had forgotten about that X-files episode.  LOL that was a good one.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 28, 2013, 07:56:30 AM
Chris, I had forgotten about that X-files episode.  LOL that was a good one.

Hi Mark,

I am not a big TV watcher except for the old movies but that was one TV show I watched every week.

I had completely forgotten about the CC&R episode since it was not really a favorite of mine but these posts must have triggered a memory.  I don't think I've watched a regular TV series since that show died out about 15 years ago.

73,

Chris/NU1O



Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: WD4ELG on March 28, 2013, 10:18:41 AM
It was a classic.  Not much on TV worth watching these days...which is good because it is a distraction from hamming!

Back to the topic of this thread (sorry for the diversion by me), I have seen several websites on the proper way to display and care for the flag.  A really good one talked about when to dispose of the flag when it is deteriorating (and offered to take care of that task as part of ordering a new flag).  http://www.replaceyourflag.com/ 

If a ham chooses to purchase a flagpole antenna and decides to fly the American flag, then that ham has an obligation to do it properly.

In fact, why only put up a flagpole antenna?  Why not just put up a flagpole or display one from the porch, without the need for an antenna?  (Flag holder = $8, US Flag $10 at Walmart or Home Depot)?  Our hobby is a great example of the freedoms we enjoy in this country.  How cool would it be if every ham displayed an American flag to reflect this?

OK, enough soapbox.  Back to the rig.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N9KX on March 28, 2013, 11:42:19 AM
Here is an interesting question: How would you feel about this issue if you were assisting a ham in a country outside the USA and he or she wanted to circumvent HOA rules regarding antennas?  If their country had a law prohibiting bans on flying the flag inside that nation  would you help them put up a flagpole antenna? 


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N2RJ on March 28, 2013, 12:47:47 PM
Here is an interesting question: How would you feel about this issue if you were assisting a ham in a country outside the USA and he or she wanted to circumvent HOA rules regarding antennas?  If their country had a law prohibiting bans on flying the flag inside that nation  would you help them put up a flagpole antenna? 

I don't know of any nation like that. In fact, some dictatorships may insist that you display patriotic symbols...


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N9KX on March 28, 2013, 04:13:13 PM
I don't know of any nation like that. In fact, some dictatorships may insist that you display patriotic symbols...

I am sure many nations have citizens who revere their flag as the symbol of something they hold great and dear.   The question is whether if the flag were not that of your nation, but someone else's nation, would you have the same moral dilemma helping a ham in that nation use a flag-pole loophole to circumvent HOA antenna restrictions?  why or why not?


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 28, 2013, 10:33:58 PM
I don't know of any nation like that. In fact, some dictatorships may insist that you display patriotic symbols...

I am sure many nations have citizens who revere their flag as the symbol of something they hold great and dear.   The question is whether if the flag were not that of your nation, but someone else's nation, would you have the same moral dilemma helping a ham in that nation use a flag-pole loophole to circumvent HOA antenna restrictions?  why or why not?


The French Tricolour is a flag I think the people of French would be very proud of but I see three problems with helping somebody with a flag in a foreign country:

1. Americans generally don't like it when foreigners interfere in our internal politics and I think that view is true in reverse.

2. If you're are actually talking about travelling to a foreign country, as opposed to helping over the internet, the person involved could find themself involved in a nasty political dispute in which they would not have any of the rights they are accustomed to in the USA.

3. I don't think most free countries fly the flag as we do in the US. I often hear this complaint when the Olympics are held in the US and everybody is chanting "USA", "USA", and waving the US flag. I think many from outside the US view it as too nationalistic.

It would be good if somebody from outside the US chimed in and gave their opinion so there was some balance.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: 2E0OZI on March 29, 2013, 03:06:37 AM
I'm outside the US.  ;D Here we dont look on the Union flag the same way as you do with your flag. It's still considered a bit ostentatious to fly the flag on  pole outside your house...although oddly enough I see plenty of Cornish flags (the cross of St Piran) flown over the border in Cornwall. If you know your history of the British Isles you would understand why.  ;)

To circumvent a covenant on the property? Caveat emptor I would say. But I think a "no antennas" covenant here would have lawyers rubbing thier hands with glee!


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N9KX on March 29, 2013, 08:07:01 AM
I don't know of any nation like that. In fact, some dictatorships may insist that you display patriotic symbols...

I am sure many nations have citizens who revere their flag as the symbol of something they hold great and dear.   The question is whether if the flag were not that of your nation, but someone else's nation, would you have the same moral dilemma helping a ham in that nation use a flag-pole loophole to circumvent HOA antenna restrictions?  why or why not?


The French Tricolour is a flag I think the people of French would be very proud of but I see three problems with helping somebody with a flag in a foreign country:

1. Americans generally don't like it when foreigners interfere in our internal politics and I think that view is true in reverse.

2. If you're are actually talking about travelling to a foreign country, as opposed to helping over the internet, the person involved could find themself involved in a nasty political dispute in which they would not have any of the rights they are accustomed to in the USA.

3. I don't think most free countries fly the flag as we do in the US. I often hear this complaint when the Olympics are held in the US and everybody is chanting "USA", "USA", and waving the US flag. I think many from outside the US view it as too nationalistic.

It would be good if somebody from outside the US chimed in and gave their opinion so there was some balance.

73,

Chris/NU1O

In both cases I would have no qualms.  You would be helping a person put up a flag-POLE which would also serve as an antenna on their property.  Any legal, political, religious, or mythological value given to the flag they might fly from it would be for them to consider.

Now if the person planned to fly the flag of a sports team that was the arch-enemy of one of MY favorite sports teams and I knew that -- NO WAY I would help them put up a flag-pole  ;) ;D :D ;)

joking aside, I too welcome the response of hams from outside the USA such as the one Scott (2E0OZI ) in England recently added.

 


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 29, 2013, 08:42:45 AM
I'm outside the US.  ;D Here we dont look on the Union flag the same way as you do with your flag. It's still considered a bit ostentatious to fly the flag on  pole outside your house...although oddly enough I see plenty of Cornish flags (the cross of St Piran) flown over the border in Cornwall. If you know your history of the British Isles you would understand why.  ;)

To circumvent a covenant on the property? Caveat emptor I would say. But I think a "no antennas" covenant here would have lawyers rubbing thier hands with glee!

In the US the American flag borders on a type of religious symbol.  If somebody burns one or steps on one violence is liable to result.

Without going into a long history lesson can you kindly explain why the Union Jack is not displayed as prominently as the American flag?  It is the flag of United Kingdom just as the US flag is the flag of the USA.
So, why the difference in the way they are displayed?

73,

Chris/NU1O




Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N2RJ on March 29, 2013, 09:20:54 AM
I don't know of any nation like that. In fact, some dictatorships may insist that you display patriotic symbols...

I am sure many nations have citizens who revere their flag as the symbol of something they hold great and dear.   The question is whether if the flag were not that of your nation, but someone else's nation, would you have the same moral dilemma helping a ham in that nation use a flag-pole loophole to circumvent HOA antenna restrictions?  why or why not?


I don't know really.

Also, in many other countries they aren't uptight about "property value" and "eyesores."  I have a friend in 9Y who has an antenna that overhangs over his neighbor's house... not just his property, but his house. And there is NO problem at all with the neighbor, who isn't into ham radio AT ALL.

Sometimes you gotta live and let live.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: W6UV on March 29, 2013, 10:14:49 AM
It seems to me when a ham's basic right to pursue happiness is infringed upon by some HOA that does not appreciate the need for a ham to put up an antenna on his own property

But didn't that ham voluntarily agree to the CC&Rs restricting his ability to put up an antenna when he purchased the property?


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N9KX on March 29, 2013, 12:40:58 PM
But didn't that ham voluntarily agree to the CC&Rs restricting his ability to put up an antenna when he purchased the property?

he could be a kid living in the home.  maybe it is a grandparent who needs to move in with his kids.  maybe she is an adult who was bit by the ham bug after buying the property.

but, taking your premise as a starting point -- maybe this person had a dual-use flagpole in mind when buying the property  ;)


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NI0C on March 29, 2013, 03:00:35 PM
Quote
everybody is chanting "USA", "USA", and waving the US flag. I think many from outside the US view it as too nationalistic.

It would be good if somebody from outside the US chimed in and gave their opinion so there was some balance.

Well, I'm a US citizen and am turned off by this type of chanting as well.  I was particularly appalled by such chanting that occurred in the run up to the shameful 2003 invasion of Iraq. 


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: KD0UN on March 29, 2013, 05:41:42 PM
When you ask people "How ya doin?"   They really want to tell you.   I'm not usually looking for that level of honesty.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N9KX on March 29, 2013, 07:26:08 PM
Quote
everybody is chanting "USA", "USA", and waving the US flag. I think many from outside the US view it as too nationalistic.

It would be good if somebody from outside the US chimed in and gave their opinion so there was some balance.

Well, I'm a US citizen and am turned off by this type of chanting as well.  I was particularly appalled by such chanting that occurred in the run up to the shameful 2003 invasion of Iraq. 

"How good bad music and bad reasons sound when we march against an enemy" -- Nietzsche

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein



Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: KY6R on March 29, 2013, 08:28:16 PM
Quote
everybody is chanting "USA", "USA", and waving the US flag. I think many from outside the US view it as too nationalistic.

It would be good if somebody from outside the US chimed in and gave their opinion so there was some balance.

Well, I'm a US citizen and am turned off by this type of chanting as well.  I was particularly appalled by such chanting that occurred in the run up to the shameful 2003 invasion of Iraq. 

I agree.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 29, 2013, 09:51:58 PM
Quote
everybody is chanting "USA", "USA", and waving the US flag. I think many from outside the US view it as too nationalistic.

It would be good if somebody from outside the US chimed in and gave their opinion so there was some balance.

Well, I'm a US citizen and am turned off by this type of chanting as well.  I was particularly appalled by such chanting that occurred in the run up to the shameful 2003 invasion of Iraq. 

Chuck,

You really did edit my message out of context and change it to suit your political views.  My message was specifically about chanting "USA", "USA" and waving the flag during the Olympics.  I didn't mention anything about the war with Iraq.

For the record, I was not one chanting my country's name over and over during the lead up to the war. Despite the fact I was in favor of removing Saddam Hussein from power I think war is far too serious to treat it like a sporting event.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NI0C on March 30, 2013, 07:20:49 AM
NU1O wrote"
Quote
Chuck,

You really did edit my message out of context and change it to suit your political views.  My message was specifically about chanting "USA", "USA" and waving the flag during the Olympics.  I didn't mention anything about the war with Iraq.

For the record, I was not one chanting my country's name over and over during the lead up to the war. Despite the fact I was in favor of removing Saddam Hussein from power I think war is far too serious to treat it like a sporting event.

73,

Chris/NU1O

Chris, I did in fact edit your message and used the opportunity to send my political message.  I apologize for using your words in this way, and for extending them in ways that you did not intend.

73,
Chuck  Ni0C


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on March 30, 2013, 10:19:22 AM
NU1O wrote"
Quote
Chuck,

You really did edit my message out of context and change it to suit your political views.  My message was specifically about chanting "USA", "USA" and waving the flag during the Olympics.  I didn't mention anything about the war with Iraq.

For the record, I was not one chanting my country's name over and over during the lead up to the war. Despite the fact I was in favor of removing Saddam Hussein from power I think war is far too serious to treat it like a sporting event.

73,

Chris/NU1O

Chris, I did in fact edit your message and used the opportunity to send my political message.  I apologize for using your words in this way, and for extending them in ways that you did not intend.

73,
Chuck  Ni0C

I thought you made a valid point about the chanting but since I don't agree with you about the war I thought it best I point out my complete text was not included

Happy Easter! I have some cooking to finish.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: W7ASA on March 30, 2013, 02:33:49 PM
Long Answer:   The fact that many are not free to put up a very reasonable thing such as an antenna on their OWN property is shameful in an allegedly 'free country'. A basic tennent of American revolutionary thought is that 'Resistance to tyrany is obedience to God." . Therefore, I would suggest that since these community kommissars believe that your home is THEIR castle, erect the flagpole and put one of the many continental battle flags up the mast as well.  Something picturing a rattlesnake with 'Don't Tread On Me' sounds appropriate, or is that too much 1776 for the average American today?    

Short Answer:
It IS a flagpole and their own property - right? The fact that the flagpole is multi-purpose is good - and thrifty too!


>de Ray
W7ASA ..._ ._


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N4UM on March 30, 2013, 04:59:41 PM
"Is anybody offended by the practice of disguising an Amateur Radio antenna as an American flag?" - NU1O

It doesn't bother me.  I use a flagpole as an antenna in my geriatric ghetto - even though flagpoles are prohibited.  Florida's "flagpole law" supercedes my HOA'a restrictive covenants.
However, I personally find the all-too-common practice of automobile dealerships erecting giant American flags to be highly offensive.



Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NI0C on March 31, 2013, 06:02:44 AM
NU1O wrote:
Quote
I thought you made a valid point about the chanting but since I don't agree with you about the war I thought it best I point out my complete text was not included

Happy Easter! I have some cooking to finish.

Chris, I re-learned my lesson concerning commenting on divisive political topics in a ham radio forum.  Happy Easter to you and yours, also!

73,
Chuck  NI0C


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on April 01, 2013, 01:07:09 AM
NU1O wrote:
Quote
I thought you made a valid point about the chanting but since I don't agree with you about the war I thought it best I point out my complete text was not included

Happy Easter! I have some cooking to finish.

Chris, I re-learned my lesson concerning commenting on divisive political topics in a ham radio forum.  Happy Easter to you and yours, also!

73,
Chuck  NI0C

Commenting on one's political views in these forums is something that doesn't really trouble me. I can count the times I've discussed politics over the radio on one hand so it's not a big issue here. However, since my quote was edited and it could give the appearance I was against removing Saddam Hussein from power I thought I'd point out my comment was edited   Actually, we agree about the chanting during the run up to the war but I was for removing Saddam Hussein from power and you haven't opined on that subject.

I had a very nice Easter. I ate way more than I should've but we only have a few holiday's a year where that happens so I'm not going to let it bother me.  I hope everybody enjoyed their Easter Sunday!

73,

Chris/NU1O




Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N0JL on April 02, 2013, 08:14:25 AM
The moral problem is the CC&R!


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on April 03, 2013, 11:00:44 PM
The moral problem is the CC&R!

When a CC&R is originally formed it is an an agreement by the property owners in the hope the restrictions will help maintain their property values.  As time goes on the restrictions transfer when the property is sold but at the time of the closing, or before if the ham is on his toes, the restrictions should be spelled out to the buyer by a competent attorney or real estate agent.

I don't think are many cases where the purchaser is not aware there is a CC&R and ignorance is not a very good excuse, especially by a ham who should be aware many developments have these covenants.  CC&R's are one of the most discussed topics in ham forums and ham magazines and any ham with an outdoor antenna should know a CC&R could shut their station down.

I still think the easiest way to avoid a CC&R is not to move into a property with a restriction against antennae. If the ham has no choice there are loads of articles on how to build a stealth antenna and many hams use an indoor antenna.

I strongly disagree that a voluntary agreement amongst like property owners in immoral.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU4B on April 04, 2013, 08:25:00 AM
The moral problem is the CC&R!

I still think the easiest way to avoid a CC&R is not to move into a property with a restriction against antennae. If the ham has no choice there are loads of articles on how to build a stealth antenna and many hams use an indoor antenna.


Exactly! I am a real estate agent and Chris is right - avoid these properties if you can. If you can't, plan ahead. Know before you sign how you are going to do your  stealth antenna. I rented a townhouse years ago and I was able to put my HF5B on the balcony and an HF2V  on my patio fence because the way the townhouse was built and the particular location on the unit. Both antennas were never seen from the road or any other unit. My unit was the "end of the road" so to speak - there was no reason to come around to my unit - other than to see me.

Other property owners - whether right or wrong  - may not see the beauty in our tower(s). Remember many people buy into these properties because they want the CCRs - they don't want to look at 20 cars in the driveway, an RV parked in the front yard, a mobile home next door, a rickety above ground pool etc.. So if you do end up in a CCR neighborhood be respectful, watch out for "Nosy Ned" and "Stuffy Sally", and PLAN AHEAD!

 - and if you need one, get a good RE buyer's agent that understands ham radio so you are not surprised after you move in.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: K8QV on April 04, 2013, 03:43:23 PM
Hams who have such restrictions have agreed to abide by those restrictions. Still, most can't wait to sneak around and circumvent the rules. Sorry, those are just the facts. I think it makes hams look pretty sleazy and dishonest.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: N9KX on April 04, 2013, 04:35:05 PM
Hams who have such restrictions have agreed to abide by those restrictions. Still, most can't wait to sneak around and circumvent the rules. Sorry, those are just the facts. I think it makes hams look pretty sleazy and dishonest.

 ::)

what if this is a teen-ager or an elderly fellow or lady who has moved in with her children? they are sleazy if they put up a dual-use flag-pole to get around housing restrictions  ???

It is amazing to me that we worship property value more than we worship a man's (or woman's) right to put up an antenna of some kind.  Saying a ham should not erect a dual-use flagpole to get on the air and as a way around a property restriction seems to me to miss the point entirely of what Jesus was pointing to when he asked if man was made for the sabbath or the sabbath made for man.  But then a lot of what Jesus meant seems to be missed by people -- especially the church goers who call themselves 'christians'. 

disclaimer: I do not attend church nor consider myself a christian.  73

 



Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: W2IRT on April 04, 2013, 07:08:10 PM
I'm an atheist and don't give a right royal rat's rump about anything xtian (or any other faith for that matter). I'll do whatever I need to do to put as strong a signal into the aether as I possibly can. At the moment, that includes living somewhere without CC&Rs, but if I had no other choice for some reason (hint: I wouldn't allow myself to be put in such a predicament), I'd do anything I could, including flagpoles, loading up rain gutters, stealth verticals or dipoles in the attic--or bribing the neighbours to be quiet about it by one means or another.

I have zero problems with using a flag pole vertical. Shuts the neighbours up, pisses off the CC&R nazis and you get on the air whether they like it or not.


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: W6GX on April 04, 2013, 10:47:28 PM
I have zero problems with using a flag pole vertical. Shuts the neighbours up, pisses off the CC&R nazis and you get on the air whether they like it or not.

AND you would wish the DX station is calling by numbers.  Sorry I just couldn't help it ;D

73,
Jonathan W6GX


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: NU1O on April 05, 2013, 12:33:32 AM

Expecting someone to be patriotic before they raise the flag is like expecting someone to be perfect before they go to church.

I was just reading some of the older posts and this one caught my attention.  I don't know why I didn't comment on it when it first appeared but I'll do so now.

You seem to be saying one needs to fly a flag as an adult before one develops any patriotic feelings for this country. IOW, flying the flag comes first and patriotism second.

I became patriotic as a school child. I can't give you an exact date but it was certainly before I was a teenager. I think the daily recital of the Pledge of Allegiance (I'm not sure they do that any longer in this State) as well as learning some of the wonderful history of this country, and watching the space flight's as a child all played a part. My parent's were both very patriotic and I'm sure that played a big role.

Frankly, I don't know how one could grow up in this country and not be patriotic. If one is not patriotic by the time they reach voting age I would seriously question why the hell they even bother living here.  

My case was similar to that of my schoolmates. We grew up during the Cold War, and although I had some odd classmates, I can't ever recall any student saying this was a lousy country and they wished they were living in the USSR, China, or anywhere else for that matter.

I flew my first flag when I bought a house after finishing college but I had already been very patriotic long before that flag went up.

Actually, I think you stated things in reverse. If an adult is not patriotic I seriously doubt he/she would ever erect a flag, or that the flag would help make him/her patriotic.  It's the patriots who fly flags, not those who are undecided.

73,

Chris/NU1O


Title: RE: Moral implications of using flagpole antenna?
Post by: KY6R on April 05, 2013, 08:27:34 AM
I never have, nor ever will live in a cc&r or hoa restricted community as long as I want  to actively dx. I would not use a flagpole antenna - but use my Force-12 Sigma 5 and not whine that that is all I have. Or maybe something in the attic or off a balcony.

I don't see any moral, patriotic, religious or other non technical issues here at all.