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eHam Forums => Amplifiers => Topic started by: KA5PIU on June 07, 2014, 02:29:54 AM



Title: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 07, 2014, 02:29:54 AM
Cheap 500 watt HF amplifier.

Hello.

Although they are beginning to get hard to get, Mitsubishi produced some of the largest CRT monitors at 36".
The TV like sweep circuit had to deal with several scan frequencies, but not exceed a safe CRT voltage.
So, there is the ultra linear sweep module and some pretty precise current control.
The Sweep module is of special interest.
Due to the sheer size, the module can do 500 watts, and is good for at least 32 MHz.
The TV sets have an independent power supply for sweep.
By removing the sweep unit, removing the flyback and other parts unneeded, and making correct coupling, it will output 500+ watts.
I did 28.385 Mhz with 500 watts, both into a dummy load, to check purity, and to see how much it would heat.
It does not heat, even after 5 hours of operation, and the purity is well within even that of a type accepted transmitter, but only on 10 meters.
Drive was 4 watts.
The heat sink is massive, the entire back and bottom of the TV, but no fan.
Around 50 volts DC is supply, 10 amps.
There is also 14 volts and 5 volts.
There is no filtering of the RF whatsoever, so at 10 MHz, harmonics are a problem.
I am going to have a wooden box made for it as it is a complete 10 meter base station, less radio.
But, there is no reason a ham could not make a full range HF amp.
In Mexico, 10,11,12 meter radios are popular.
The villages use them to communicate much like one would use a telephone here.



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WB2WIK on June 07, 2014, 03:36:36 PM
Sounds like it's an independent "module" from that model TV/monitor.

Does it have a P/N on it somewhere, so folks can look for surpus ones on the market?


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 07, 2014, 06:10:40 PM
Sounds like it's an independent "module" from that model TV/monitor.

Does it have a P/N on it somewhere, so folks can look for surpus ones on the market?

Hello.

Yes, it is indeed an independent module.
What TV manufacturers do is come up with a basic board.
A rear projection set set would be a regular TV, same board, with added boards for the 3 independent guns and special HV section.
Deluxe audio is the same thing, an extra module for that.
But, I find old Mitsubishi large CRT TVs, frequently for free.
The reason for the very high frequency response is that this is the cheap way to do things.
If only a few thousand of something is produced, it is cheaper to buy off the shelf parts if at all possible, and use as much of the parts from the main production as possible.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WA7PRC on June 08, 2014, 01:04:23 PM
By removing the sweep unit, removing the flyback and other parts unneeded, and making correct coupling, it will output 500+ watts.
...
Around 50 volts DC is supply, 10 amps.
So, the efficiency is 100%...


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WB2WIK on June 08, 2014, 04:20:51 PM
By removing the sweep unit, removing the flyback and other parts unneeded, and making correct coupling, it will output 500+ watts.
...
Around 50 volts DC is supply, 10 amps.
So, the efficiency is 100%...

Mine goes up to 11.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 08, 2014, 04:25:29 PM
Hello.

That is the dissipation, and yes, 100%.
The nominal 50 volt supply is more like 57 volts.
The actual figures are.
58 volts.
10.6 amps.
Almost exactly 500 watts on a "quality" dosy TR-2000 meter!
Why this CB stuff?
The "load bank" is this 25 ohm globar resistor pair in a steel pipe with a UHF connector I made years ago.
The resistor is rated to 1000 watts and has a HV ceramic standoff on each end and filled with transformer oil, so it can handle 10,000 watts for a few seconds
2000 watts all day, real world.
We measure the average power by the temp rise.
It does have a tap for 50% of power.
But, yes, not 100% efficient, but the fact that it is a TV sweep amplifier with NO FILTERING and "10" meters should put you on warning.
What is its nominal impedance?
How pure is the signal?
It needs to be run around 300 watts for anything close to a nice signal, and it is a 100% class C amp, don't even think about anything but CW or FM! even at 300 watts.
But, at 500 watts CW, it is clean!
At 250 watts, external modulation, AM mode, it does nice.
Input AC can be anything from 100 to 270 volts.
And, it is constant duty.
My guess is that around 700 watts is the upper limit.
The power supply can do almost 19 amps without any sag or excess heat on the 50 volt output.
So, 4 watts of drive gives 500 watts nominal out.
Remember that this is loose experimenting.
I will be running at around 27 MHz as an ISM device and loop for induction heating experiments, very little actual radiated power.
I also dismantle microwave ovens for the power supply and magnetron, so this is nothing new.
Remember that safety is paramount.
Be safe, and enjoy!



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WB2WIK on June 08, 2014, 04:45:16 PM
Hello.

That is the dissipation, and yes, 100%.
The nominal 50 volt supply is more like 57 volts.
The actual figures are.
58 volts.
10.6 amps.
Almost exactly 500 watts on a "quality" dosy TR-2000 meter!

Yeah.  That would be over 81% efficiency, and that can't be linear.  That's what Bryan was hinting at.
Quote
It needs to be run around 300 watts for anything close to a nice signal, and it is a 100% class C amp, don't even think about anything but CW or FM! even at 300 watts.
But, at 500 watts CW, it is clean!
At 250 watts, external modulation, AM mode, it does nice.

That doesn't make much sense either.  How do you modulate it externally?  250W carrier power is 1000W PEP, and would require a 250W modulator.  How are you doing that?  And it really handles 1000W PEP output?  I'd love to see that.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WA7PRC on June 08, 2014, 05:05:42 PM
By removing the sweep unit, removing the flyback and other parts unneeded, and making correct coupling, it will output 500+ watts.
...
Around 50 volts DC is supply, 10 amps.
So, the efficiency is 100%...

Mine goes up to 11.
Like this?  ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3L4EZwmRrA


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 08, 2014, 06:22:56 PM
Hello.

correct, 25 or 50% of the carrier is needed for external (High Level) modulation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplitude_modulation
TV sweep modules are super easy to do with the built in DEW circuit.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4082986
In the case of the really large sets, the high voltage must be monitored on a dynamic basis as they are right on the edge.
But, the CRT will at some point no longer emit enough electrons, so the set will blink 7 times and turn off.
This is just fine for me, I do not want the CRT.
What I want is that driver module and power supply and the audio amplifier and its power supply.
I have also ripped apart old rear projection TV sets and although good for solid state Tesla coils, the transistors will max out around 2 MHz.
That is why I see this as so much of a treat, 32 MHz!
I normally only go 160 and 10 meters in HF.
Again, the large Mitsubishi sets will yield all the parts for an AM ten meter amp or transmitter.
This is the really large Mitsubishi Diamond-Vision with the SVGA connector.
I had no concern over the TV proper, just the audio section at first.
I took the HV as it was connected to this nifty power supply.
It was only after I took it apart that I saw the module.
This set yielded 2 tuners, 3 power supplies, 6 speakers, and a host of parts such as the input panel and its PC board.
Remember that this was all free.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W1BR on June 08, 2014, 08:30:16 PM
Hello.

At 250 watts, external modulation, AM mode, it does nice.
 
My guess is that around 700 watts is the upper limit.


It would to do 1000 watts peak for 100% AM modulation for 250 watt carrier.

pete


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 08, 2014, 08:53:26 PM
Hello.

OK, so we are on the same page.
In CW, I am measuring carrier.
On AM, I am measuring peak.
The audio amplifier in question does not seem to have enough power for 100% modulation.
Remember that this is a CB wattmeter and that super high quality dummy load I made with plumbing pipe, so the precision? what precision?
I used a Motorola service monitor to look at purity of signal, and that is excellent, but at about 80% modulation.
But, the rest of the figures, kind of sort of like a gas gauge, in the ballpark.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KD8MJR on June 08, 2014, 10:39:21 PM
Any pictures of this Amp?  I would love to see it.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 08, 2014, 11:52:50 PM
Hello.

In hindsight I should have taken pictures.
But, this was just an old direct view TV, one of hundreds getting scrapped.
Think of this as just a scrap TV.
Bars are where you will find them, just sitting there due to the DTV transition.
Even if yours does not have the nicer HV, it will have nice speakers and an audio section.
This has already been mounted in a box and sold.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K6AER on June 09, 2014, 09:00:25 AM
Several issues are at play with what is being proposed.

Is the power supply intrinsically isolated from the AC mains?

What is the input and output impedance as viewed on a Smith chart for 160-10 meters?

You mentioned it is linear but how linear. The FCC requires the even and odd harmonics to be down 43 dB of the power. A bank of low pass filters will be required.

Now we get to everyone’s favorite subject…IMD. Linear in the Audio Visual world only requires 20-30 dB of IMD reduction. With the efficiencies you have reported, these devices look more like Class “C” or “E” in operation. Is there a schematic available anywhere?

Also the gain will have to be tamed. 10-15 dB maximum. Transceivers have terrible IMD at low power outputs.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 09, 2014, 04:06:06 PM
Hello.

First off, only the schematic for the TV is available.
The power supply is a fully isolated switching unit, there is no connection to the AC supply, it fully floats.
It is not configured for anything but 24 to 32 MHz, no low pass or high pass filtering is required.
The second harmonic of the lowest frequency would be 48 MHz, well outside the range of the transistors to amplify.
The second harmonic is down 100+ Db.
The third harmonic? there is NO third harmonic!
IMD? 50+ dB down.
Again, I am using the idea that this is a 10 meter amp.
True, class C biased, it can NOT deal with an AM or SSB signal!
Linear? not hardly!
In a TV set, yes, it is linear, but in this  application? no!
What they mean by linear is the ability to control power output over a broad range of frequencies, not an RF application.
Again, this is a TV sweep unit, NOT an HF amplifier.
The way I get away with it is the fact that it is run on one limited area.
Think of it as a super clean 11 meter amplifier.
The power control circuit can accept an AM signal.
That was your first hint.
The fact that it can do AM with external modulation?
Or FM?
"CW is possible"?
No, you are expecting WAY to much, it is a cheap 10 (Or 11) meter amp.
And, to make this clear, in Mexico, running 1000 watts on 11 meters is perfectly legal.
That is the market for something like this.
Thank you.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 09, 2014, 08:07:56 PM
Seems like it would require a lot of parts and labor to be of much use. By the time I get done with a retrofit, I could build one from scratch, that has useful modes on ham radio, puts out more power, and operates very clean on the bands it is going to be built for. Power supply is nothing special either. HP server power supplies are floating out there cheap. And are much higher capacity.

For me, this "find" is of little use. But maybe it would make a cool small plasma cutter for thin metal used for cases. But even then it would never pass any type of RFI specs.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 09, 2014, 08:50:21 PM
Hello.

First off, it does meet RFI specifications, that is the point.
And, you can not beat the cost, free, it is out of a TV.
In fact, except for the SO-239 and wooden box, it all came out of the same TV.
This is the sweep module complete from a Mitsubishi TV.
Power cord, brackets, mounts, connectors, screws, I even reused the grommets!
The wood came from some cheap furniture.
As long as it stays on 10/11/12 meters, it is fine.
It takes a cheap "export" 11 meter radio and turns it into a 500+ watt base station!
Yes, you can build one out of other things, but not as cheap.
In Mexico, the Indians love this type of thing, they will sit for hours and chat about all sorts of odd stuff.
Old wooden telephones are also popular.
Enjoy!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N3QE on June 10, 2014, 06:04:18 AM
There are bazillions of "cheap 10 meter amps" out there in the CB section of every truck stop out there.

We do not need more 10 meter amps floating around in their hands because we know that none of them will end up being used by hams.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 10, 2014, 07:21:50 AM
Hello.

First off, it does meet RFI specifications, that is the point.
And, you can not beat the cost, free, it is out of a TV.
In fact, except for the SO-239 and wooden box, it all came out of the same TV.
This is the sweep module complete from a Mitsubishi TV.
Power cord, brackets, mounts, connectors, screws, I even reused the grommets!
The wood came from some cheap furniture.
As long as it stays on 10/11/12 meters, it is fine.
It takes a cheap "export" 11 meter radio and turns it into a 500+ watt base station!
Yes, you can build one out of other things, but not as cheap.
In Mexico, the Indians love this type of thing, they will sit for hours and chat about all sorts of odd stuff.
Old wooden telephones are also popular.
Enjoy!

Then keep them in Mexico. America is overloaded in 11 meter noise amplifiers.

And I have a hard time believing without a properly tuned and matched input and output they are "clean". No amplifier is that clean without some type of filtering.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 10, 2014, 10:31:10 AM
Hello.

The trick is to keep it in ONE band.
Amplifiers can be clean without complicated filtering, think of really old radios.
How did they do it?
First off, a CW signal, properly produced, is clean.
Take this clean signal and amplify it, you have a strong clean signal.
Now, take only the final section and modulate it with true AM, you have a strong AM signal.
FM, not a problem.
Try SSB, and you are going to have to filter out the trash created.
That is due to the fact that SSB creates artifacts, and is, as a rule, low level modulation.
So, this thing can never be anything but a ONE band cheap amplifier.
I will give you a hint, that is the title.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA4WJA on June 10, 2014, 02:38:33 PM
Rudy,
Please understand that I'm not trying to be argumentative here at all, I just wanted to point out a few things that might help others reading this thread...

I'm surprised few have chimed-in here....perhaps many think (like I do) that this is just a ruse to stir up a heated discussion...
And, I don't wish to spend a great deal of time discussing your "Cheap amp" idea....but, thought it might be prudent to point out a few things for others contemplating this sort of thing....

 
Quite a bit of what you wrote here, even in one post, is contradictory, and smells an awful like "CB Math"....and then further, you add more contradictory info?

That is the dissipation, and yes, 100%.
The nominal 50 volt supply is more like 57 volts.
The actual figures are.
58 volts.
10.6 amps.
Almost exactly 500 watts on a "quality" dosy TR-2000 meter!
Why this CB stuff?
The "load bank" is this 25 ohm globar resistor pair in a steel pipe with a UHF connector I made years ago.
The resistor is rated to 1000 watts and has a HV ceramic standoff on each end and filled with transformer oil, so it can handle 10,000 watts for a few seconds
2000 watts all day, real world.
We measure the average power by the temp rise.
It does have a tap for 50% of power.
But, yes, not 100% efficient, but the fact that it is a TV sweep amplifier with NO FILTERING and "10" meters should put you on warning.

How pure is the signal?
It needs to be run around 300 watts for anything close to a nice signal, and it is a 100% class C amp, don't even think about anything but CW or FM! even at 300 watts.
But, at 500 watts CW, it is clean!

And, it is constant duty.
My guess is that around 700 watts is the upper limit.
The power supply can do almost 19 amps without any sag or excess heat on the 50 volt output.
So, 4 watts of drive gives 500 watts nominal out.
Remember that this is loose experimenting.

Steve and Bryan have already mentioned this "linear", isn't... :)
And, these figures just don't ring anywhere close to being "true"...
81% eff? isn't the only thing that makes no sense... :)


Plus, you write about "no filtering"?
(I assume you are not aware that close-in spectral purity, such as IMD products, are not "filterable"?, but are noise/products produced on-channel/in-band...)

Then you reference Wikipedia for an explanation of "AM".... :)
Perhaps you're not aware that many of these folks here actually "know" these things and have decades of experience with them?





And, when Mike tried to get some actual info....
You then posted more confusing/contradictory nonsense....

First off, only the schematic for the TV is available.

It is not configured for anything but 24 to 32 MHz, no low pass or high pass filtering is required.
The second harmonic of the lowest frequency would be 48 MHz, well outside the range of the transistors to amplify.
 Uh, I wouldn't bet on that...


The second harmonic is down 100+ Db.
The third harmonic? there is NO third harmonic!
IMD? 50+ dB down.
 You're not serious here, are you?


Again, I am using the idea that this is a 10 meter amp.
 God help 10 meters!


True, class C biased, it can NOT deal with an AM or SSB signal!
Linear? not hardly!
In a TV set, yes, it is linear, but in this  application? no!
What they mean by linear is the ability to control power output over a broad range of frequencies, not an RF application.
Again, this is a TV sweep unit, NOT an HF amplifier.
 But, aren't you actually touting this AS an HF amp?


The way I get away with it is the fact that it is run on one limited area.
Think of it as a super clean 11 meter amplifier.
Can 'ya say oxymoronic? :)


The power control circuit can accept an AM signal.
That was your first hint.
The fact that it can do AM with external modulation?
Or FM?
"CW is possible"?
No, you are expecting WAY to much, it is a cheap 10 (Or 11) meter amp.
 Nah, it seems more like a RF noise generator to me... :)


And, to make this clear, in Mexico, running 1000 watts on 11 meters is perfectly legal.
That is the market for something like this.
 You do understand that "11 meters" signals do travel past the borders of Mexico?  Thank goodness this is one of our ISM bands...and PLEASE do NOT promote this as a "ham radio" amp, PLEASE... 





There is NO "trick" to this....and here again you are being contradictory and melding things to fit some sort of narrative?
The trick is to keep it in ONE band.
Amplifiers can be clean without complicated filtering, think of really old radios.
How did they do it?
First off, a CW signal, properly produced, is clean.
Take this clean signal and amplify it, you have a strong clean signal.
Now, take only the final section and modulate it with true AM, you have a strong AM signal.
FM, not a problem.
Try SSB, and you are going to have to filter out the trash created.
That is due to the fact that SSB creates artifacts, and is, as a rule, low level modulation.
So, this thing can never be anything but a ONE band cheap amplifier.
I will give you a hint, that is the title.
I will give you a hint, this is not a 10 meter amp! 
And, please understand that you cannot "filter out" the trash created!
And, SSB doesn't "create artifacts"....






And, I suspect whatever you think you're measuring....you're mistaken...
I used a Motorola service monitor to look at purity of signal, and that is excellent, but at about 80% modulation.
What procedure are you using to verify the "purity of signal"? [sic]
And, what "specifications" are you asserting that it meets?






Are you aware that "RFI specs" (I assume from the old TV set), are about the TV set, and its power supplies and modules, etc. not radiating interference beyond what the "part 15" specs say, but these have NOTHING at all to do with your "cheap amp's" ability to produce a "clean" signal, neither close-in/in-band, nor harmonically!!
First off, it does meet RFI specifications, that is the point.

As long as it stays on 10/11/12 meters, it is fine.

It takes a cheap "export" 11 meter radio and turns it into a 500+ watt base station!
Here again, more contradictory statements....(and nonsense)....it is NOT fine "as long as it stays on 10/11/12 meters"....
And, it seems like it turns a TV set into a RF noise/distortion generator....






The title of this thread is "Cheap 10 meter amp", but at best you seem to be promoting a cheap, dirty 11 meter amp....
Perhaps, you should ask the eham moderators to allow you to change the title accordingly?







This here seems like a great find for the junk box....but, why would you try to make a
Cheap amp", that has horrible spectral purity?

This is the really large Mitsubishi Diamond-Vision with the SVGA connector.
I had no concern over the TV proper, just the audio section at first.
I took the HV as it was connected to this nifty power supply.
It was only after I took it apart that I saw the module.
This set yielded 2 tuners, 3 power supplies, 6 speakers, and a host of parts such as the input panel and its PC board.
Remember that this was all free.
In my opinion, it would be best to put these old TV's to better use...







Please forgive any perceived rudeness on my part, but hear stuff like this talked about on-the-air as well, and I'm wondering where in the world do all of these misconceptions come from?



I could go on, but I think I got the point across....


73,

John,  KA4WJA



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 10, 2014, 08:17:43 PM
Hello.

First off, I checked the CW carrier with a spectrum analyzer, clean.
The amplifier module simply does not amplify much past 32 Mhz, at 35 MHz, no  gain,
And, the reason for CW is that the amp itself is modulated, no AM or CW signal enters the amp.
SSB Does indeed cause all sorts of problems with a class C biased amp.
This is NOT intended for use as a CB amp in the USA.
I hang out on 28.385 MHz on 10 meters, and put out a very clean signal.
I do NOT operate on other bands as a rule, 10 meters or 160 is it for HF/MF for me.
I do have an HF/MF/LF amp,AM ONLY, rated for 10,000 watts, a shipboard unit.
It has a built in 500 kHz and 2182 transmitter.
In normal use, CW is fed to the thing and the Amplifier is modulated, classic AM fone.
Running 1000 watts, it runs cool.
It is on the basis of this that I look at stuff like this.
As a rule, I run ONLY AM or FM or CW.
And, no, this really is intended for legal use.
If you ever listen to me operate, I am perhaps a model operator, looking for RFI/TVI.
You see, in Mexico, OTA TV is the norm, and you cause TVI in Mexico, and don't fix it and you are likely to come home and find your radio gone!
CB and 10 meters in the US and Mexico mean differing things.
In Mexico, this type of radio is used to communicate between villages, it is NOT a hobby.
I have a Mexican call, but that stays in Mexico.
I am not a ham in Mexico, I am the community communications guy.
The last US ham who tried to get in actual contact with me was arrested.
The Mexican authorities have me as their comm guy in Sinaloa, and drugs are a real problem.
So, by giving the communities a voice, crime is reduced.
In the USA, people talk about what if communications quit.
I am going to places where there is nothing to quit!
Again, way different thinking.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 10, 2014, 08:42:07 PM
Is it just me, or is this guy seem to be rambling on with nonsense? The tune has changed so many times it has broken my BS meter. Or is the way he tells it the problem? And when someone points out a problem, it seems like he makes something up so he "sounds" right.

Last time I saw such crazy things it was from a guy that runs his generator inside his garage and says it is impossible for the exhaust to get inside his house.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 10, 2014, 09:58:48 PM
Hello.

Again, read the title, Cheap 10 meter amp.
It is NOT a full range HF amp, mono band.
It is NOT a CB amp, clearly intended for 10 meters.
It just happens to work well on 10 meters.
There is no low pass filter, none needed, the transistors drop out much past 10 meters.
The second harmonic of 28 MHz is 56 MHz, well past the passband of the device.
Note that I said passband, it simply does not pass 56 MHz.
On 12 meters, 24 MHz, the same is true, the second harmonic is 48 MHz, and outside the pass band.
Will it work below 24 Mhz, perhaps, but I did not try, filtering would be needed.
Again, read the title Cheap 10 meter amp.
http://educate-yourself.org/be/upperharmonicsexplained22may02.shtml
So, if PURE sine waves are introduced, such as a CW signal, there is no problem, and why CW transmitters need so little in the way of filtering.
Lets say we have this strong CW signal after passing it through an amplifier, a sine wave.
Now, modulate this in the final section, and the signal will be distorted, but this will be very limited, as there is no further amplification.
All transmitters produce artifacts, noise.
The trick is to have them far enough down to meet requirements, FCC, etc.
Again, if operated as a mono band amplifier, no problem.
CW, FM or high level AM.
No SSB, no other bands.
Again, Cheap 10 meter amplifier.
The title is fine, if you can not figure it out, that is your problem.
I have also built 160 meter amplifiers.
The more common TV sweep transistors MIGHT be able to do 3 MHz, if that.
But that is fine for 160 meters.
Again, AM FONE.
There are plenty of old MF marine radios with dead finals.
People try and "Test" them without an antenna.
So, 60 watt AM radio? why not?
No SSB, 2 MHz AM marine was the norm and they moved to VHF FM.
The key advantage of AM is that it sounds natural, FM has no, or little static.
The disadvantage is that it takes up more bandwidth and so shorter range.
But, CB, no, that is limited to 4 watts.
4 watts on VHF, such as 2 meters, has a good range.
If you listen to 2 meters, even the repeaters, they are dead!
10 meters? I can pick a frequency, like 28.385 MHz, and listen for hours, nothing.
And, why 28.385 MHz?
Like it or not, a lot of hams started in CB, and to move a CB up 1 MHz is easy.
But, once converted it is a ham radio, FCC rules do not permit dual use radios.
The point being, to sell amateur radio, you have to SELL amateur radio.
Make it interesting, enjoyable, and,,, if need be, cheap.
Remember, not everyone wants HF, the antennas, etc.
The Cheap Chinese talkies? some are happy with them.
I think most "Elmers" sniff too much glue!
Read about Dayton.
Now, with that in mind, how are you going to introduce people to radio.
I explain it is a hobby and you can buy or build.
This is an example.
True, it is never going to be good for SSB, or anything but 10 meters, but it is super cheap!
Again, this is something out of a discarded TV!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 11, 2014, 03:03:41 AM
Hello.

Had someone ask a member of the Tokyo Radio Club.
Mitsubishi was an RF module intended for Marine HF radios.
To be precise, it is for the JRC 500 watt MF/HF transceiver.
Operating at 500 watts, it should be clean!
Band filters would need to be installed for anything but 10 meters.
But, this was installed in a TV set.
Nominal output impedance? 50 ohms.
Nominal input impedance? 450 ohms.
In RF service, a T pad is installed to buffer the module from the driver section.
I referred this thread to them and they said in effect 'Get a Job!'  or  'Get a Life!'.
But, no, this is by far not a truck stop special.
Again, there are NO filters, so operating it at anyplace but 10 meters would be a problem.
The low pass and high pass filtering is the fact that anything above about 32 MHz faces a very steep drop off, nothing is at the output terminals.
That is in the design of the device.
I looked at the thing, and it looked like there was a place for a SO-239, There is.
Just like any large TV set, it was one module of several.
The audio section is the same way, the audio section on the main board is unpopulated, and an external board is present.
This is the same with GM cars with the "Bose" sound system, a large amp in the trunk but little but a tuner up front.
So, the moral of the story? follow your training when encountering used electronics.
I have a console TV/HiFi with the record player missing and the TV had a bad CRT.
Now, a laptop sits where the Record player was, and an LCD computer monitor where the TV was, and it is nice wood to boot!
Router and access point, cordless phone base, surge protector, all that crap, is inside this unit.
Reuse, repurpose, recycle, be good to the environment!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 11, 2014, 04:29:17 AM
Clueless! I give up trying to understand this dribble.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: DL8OV on June 11, 2014, 07:49:51 AM
I have a use for old CRT TV sets. The electrolytic capacitors get removed from the PCBs as do the large inductors. The scan coils are unwound and I recover what connectors I can. Finally I remove all the power transistors I can see and then the rest goes in the recycling bin where our local municipality recover the heavy metals.

A 28 MHz class C linear?

No thank you, I do not want the Bundesnetagentur knocking on my door!

Peter DL8OV


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N6AJR on June 11, 2014, 08:18:07 AM
for some reason when I see Dosy meter, I automatically think CB


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N4TTS on June 11, 2014, 10:57:06 AM
Is it just me, or is this guy seem to be rambling on with nonsense? The tune has changed so many times it has broken my BS meter. Or is the way he tells it the problem? And when someone points out a problem, it seems like he makes something up so he "sounds" right.

Last time I saw such crazy things it was from a guy that runs his generator inside his garage and says it is impossible for the exhaust to get inside his house.

It's not just you. This guy went from almost nothing to posting near gibberish all over the forum in the last few weeks.
I believe an adjustment in his medication went wrong and we're witnessing the results.

I'm not moving into ad hominem as much as I am ad nauseum.

Don N4TTS


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WA7PRC on June 11, 2014, 05:03:41 PM
... class C linear?

The terms "Class C" and "linear" should not be associated with each other.  ;)

vy 73,
Bryan WA7PRC


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WB2WIK on June 11, 2014, 05:28:16 PM
Hello.

Had someone ask a member of the Tokyo Radio Club.
Mitsubishi was an RF module intended for Marine HF radios.
To be precise, it is for the JRC 500 watt MF/HF transceiver.
Operating at 500 watts, it should be clean!
Band filters would need to be installed for anything but 10 meters.
But, this was installed in a TV set.
Nominal output impedance? 50 ohms.
Nominal input impedance? 450 ohms.
In RF service, a T pad is installed to buffer the module from the driver section.
I referred this thread to them and they said in effect 'Get a Job!'  or  'Get a Life!'.
But, no, this is by far not a truck stop special.
Again, there are NO filters, so operating it at anyplace but 10 meters would be a problem.
The low pass and high pass filtering is the fact that anything above about 32 MHz faces a very steep drop off, nothing is at the output terminals.
That is in the design of the device.
I looked at the thing, and it looked like there was a place for a SO-239, There is.
Just like any large TV set, it was one module of several.
The audio section is the same way, the audio section on the main board is unpopulated, and an external board is present.
This is the same with GM cars with the "Bose" sound system, a large amp in the trunk but little but a tuner up front.
So, the moral of the story? follow your training when encountering used electronics.
I have a console TV/HiFi with the record player missing and the TV had a bad CRT.
Now, a laptop sits where the Record player was, and an LCD computer monitor where the TV was, and it is nice wood to boot!
Router and access point, cordless phone base, surge protector, all that crap, is inside this unit.
Reuse, repurpose, recycle, be good to the environment!

I was that drunk a few times, in college.  Long time ago.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KD8MJR on June 11, 2014, 07:06:47 PM
Even though his whole argument flys in the face of reality I wanted to give him the benefit of doubt and see what he's talking about, but without pictures or a link to a schematic this really seems to be just a poor joke.  I think the OP should come back with something more concrete if he's going to make incredible claims.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: DL8OV on June 12, 2014, 12:23:12 AM
"The terms "Class C" and "linear" should not be associated with each other."

My apologies, you are correct.

Peter DL8OV


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 12, 2014, 03:01:24 AM
... class C linear?

The terms "Class C" and "linear" should not be associated with each other.  ;)

vy 73,
Bryan WA7PRC

Hello.

Read the title.
Does it anywhere say "Linear"
For a TV sweep amp, it is linear.
It is a CHEAP 10 METER AMP.
It is "Class C".
Is a class C amplifier linear? of course not.
What is linear in it is the power control.
You see, in order to maintain the HV to a set level on a CRT of such large a size, there has to be a feedback loop, screen all black, the current needs to be throttled back.
Likewise, all white screen, more current.
This has to happen in an instant, or the screen image expands or contracts.
I looked at that and understood, that is amplitude modulation at its finest.
So, I tried some experiments like what is the highest frequency it is effective at, how fast can it modulate a carrier, etc.
I can modulate a CW carrier around 3 MHz maximum, more than fast enough for AM!
The device has a built in low pass filter, it does not operate past 32 MHz.
If the signal is only CW or FM on the input, the output is clean.
There is no filtering for any other band, and as long as it is operated in the narrow range, none is needed.
Yes, I use CB tech, 11 meter antennas cut down, the whole bit, that stuff can be cheap.
Cheap as in $100 for a complete FT-101, 60 feet of tower, 120+ foot run of RG-8, antenna, another CB with a mobile antenna, and that super deluxe Dosy with a built in "swing" function and the companion frequency counter.
That was $100.
I also look at old marine and aircraft radios.
And old TV sets for parts.
And stereos.
You get the idea.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N0YXB on June 12, 2014, 12:06:27 PM
Hello.

Had someone ask a member of the Tokyo Radio Club.
Mitsubishi was an RF module intended for Marine HF radios.
To be precise, it is for the JRC 500 watt MF/HF transceiver.
Operating at 500 watts, it should be clean!
Band filters would need to be installed for anything but 10 meters.
But, this was installed in a TV set.
Nominal output impedance? 50 ohms.
Nominal input impedance? 450 ohms.
In RF service, a T pad is installed to buffer the module from the driver section.
I referred this thread to them and they said in effect 'Get a Job!'  or  'Get a Life!'.
But, no, this is by far not a truck stop special.
Again, there are NO filters, so operating it at anyplace but 10 meters would be a problem.
The low pass and high pass filtering is the fact that anything above about 32 MHz faces a very steep drop off, nothing is at the output terminals.
That is in the design of the device.
I looked at the thing, and it looked like there was a place for a SO-239, There is.
Just like any large TV set, it was one module of several.
The audio section is the same way, the audio section on the main board is unpopulated, and an external board is present.
This is the same with GM cars with the "Bose" sound system, a large amp in the trunk but little but a tuner up front.
So, the moral of the story? follow your training when encountering used electronics.
I have a console TV/HiFi with the record player missing and the TV had a bad CRT.
Now, a laptop sits where the Record player was, and an LCD computer monitor where the TV was, and it is nice wood to boot!
Router and access point, cordless phone base, surge protector, all that crap, is inside this unit.
Reuse, repurpose, recycle, be good to the environment!

I was that drunk a few times, in college.  Long time ago.

Good one.  And I get the impression PIU hasn't sobered up yet, he's still ranting.  It's not like there is a shortage of so-called 10 meter amplifiers out there already.  Sigh.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 12, 2014, 12:42:46 PM
Even though his whole argument flys in the face of reality I wanted to give him the benefit of doubt and see what he's talking about, but without pictures or a link to a schematic this really seems to be just a poor joke.  I think the OP should come back with something more concrete if he's going to make incredible claims.
,

Hello.

Schematic? from something out of a junk TV?
Link, again, for a junk TV?
Pictures, Again, this is something out of a junk TV.
The whole purpose is to get people to look at what is being junked, and perhaps reuse.
The chances you are going to get the exact same model of TV is very slim.
Knowing that, I did not take a lot of notes, I saw some parts that looked interesting.
Again, this came from some Mitsubishi Large screen CRT TV.
But, it is clear, some can not grasp the concept of junk parts.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WB2WIK on June 12, 2014, 01:49:15 PM
Even though his whole argument flys in the face of reality I wanted to give him the benefit of doubt and see what he's talking about, but without pictures or a link to a schematic this really seems to be just a poor joke.  I think the OP should come back with something more concrete if he's going to make incredible claims.
,

Hello.

Schematic? from something out of a junk TV?
Link, again, for a junk TV?
Pictures, Again, this is something out of a junk TV.

They all have schematics, block diagram, service guides, etc. on line. 

For example, here's an old Mitsubishi 62" rear projection TV manual: http://www.techlore.com/downloads/file/7714/Mitsubishi_WD52525,_62525,_52725,_62725,_52825,_62825.pdf

I just picked a model number I remembered because we used to have one years ago.  Long discontinued.

What's the model number of the main unit (TV set itself) you're writing about?





Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WA7PRC on June 12, 2014, 02:18:25 PM
... class C linear?
The terms "Class C" and "linear" should not be associated with each other.  ;)
Read the title.
Does it anywhere say "Linear"
You're right.  The title (subject) does not say "Linear".  Peter DL8OV used that term in association with "Class C". I did not and in fact, corrected him:
"The terms "Class C" and "linear" should not be associated with each other."

My apologies, you are correct.

Peter DL8OV


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WA7PRC on June 12, 2014, 02:19:12 PM
Schematic? from something out of a junk TV?
Link, again, for a junk TV?
Pictures, Again, this is something out of a junk TV.

They all have schematics, block diagram, service guides, etc. on line.  

For example, here's an old Mitsubishi 62" rear projection TV manual: http://www.techlore.com/downloads/file/7714/Mitsubishi_WD52525,_62525,_52725,_62725,_52825,_62825.pdf

I just picked a model number I remembered because we used to have one years ago.  Long discontinued.

What's the model number of the main unit (TV set itself) you're writing about?
You forgot the pictures, Steve.  ;D


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 12, 2014, 02:27:54 PM
Hello.

Again, you are missing the point, I pulled parts out of a JUNK TV.
The set has been sent off to the TV heaven years ago.
Think of it as something out of the junk box.
And, there is nothing to sober up from.
Yes, there are dozens of 10 meter amps, but how many are free?
And, Yes, this is indeed, a 10 meter amp, jeez, I mean what can you expect from the title "Cheap 10 meter amp?
Again, look at the title and THINK!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WB2WIK on June 12, 2014, 02:50:03 PM
I dismantled many old MITS televisions and the subassemblies all had P/Ns on them.  Modules did, subchassis did, circuit boards did, etc.

Looking at what you have left, what numbers are indicated?  Then, we can find a schematic for that or them and understand what it is!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 12, 2014, 05:00:36 PM
Hello.

Perhaps you did not read the very first part, this thing is a 10 meter amp, IN Mexico?
Yes, put this together a while back from a JUNK TV.
Several people have already said something to the effect that it is fine in Mexico.
And, by the title it should be clear of its intent.
Now, real simple question, do the people even understand the basic concept here?
You want details on old Mitsubishi TV, you look it up.
Think about how long ago the DTV transition was, 2009.
That was 5 years ago, in fact, I said that the things are getting hard to find.
Get off your butt, and look at what YOU can find, not crybaby to me.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KM4AH on June 12, 2014, 06:25:11 PM
Well, congratulations if it works for you. I can't go for the 500 in 500 out part, but if it amplifies where you want it to it suits me.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N4TTS on June 12, 2014, 07:24:18 PM
Get off your butt, and look at what YOU can find, not crybaby to me.

Hallucinations should not be used as a basis for technical references. Most of the rest of us are sober.
Come back when you're able to converse as a lucid being from this planet.

Don N4TTS


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 12, 2014, 08:23:32 PM
Seems to me that if this thing were so good and so desirable, the author would have at least a few details to go along with all the hyperbole. It is easy to make any claim if you dispense with giving details.

I know it is a salvage piece, and I am certain I don't need to be treated like a kid. However you need to understand that wild claims with no details will bring many negative posts. And calling them stupid because YOU can't provide ANY details is the worst thing you can do.

Junk box projects are fine and have their place. But authors who write about them also provide details as to what it is and what they did to make it work. So far, that has not happened here.

Now if like you say you built it some time ago, and don't remember the details, then this whole thread is a waste of time because no one knows what to look for. Depending on the date of manufacture, Mitsubishi had more then 1 model. And at some points of time more then 20. Do you really think most people have the time or inclination to look through what could be hundreds of models to find this mystery circuit? And even then, what are we looking for? What is the part number of the PA component whether it be a transistor, MOSFET, module, or something else? Do you really expect someone to re engineer this thing without knowing at least one main part number? I sure wouldn't. 

You also talk about it being free. Well it may have been free to you, but if I had to search junk yards even for 1 day and got lucky and found this mystery circuit, it is no longer free to me. I already have a day of labor tied up in it. Then to strip it out, and rebuild it into something that will connect to an antenna and an exciter of some kind, will also take time. Again the costs are going up because of labor costs and now parts, solder, some kind of case, and anything else needed, also costs money.

You said in 1 post it has no filtering on it, then in another post you said it had a low pass filter. Which is it?

You also first talked about being able to run it on 10M, or 11M, or 12M. If it has no filtering , what is there to change to take it from one of these bands to another?

Also if it has no filtering at all, what keeps it from oscillating?

You see nothing you keep ranting about makes any sense. Is this circuit possible? Possibly. Is it practical based on what you have said? Doubtful. Is it something I would spend time working on? Unlikely based on the information provided.

A junk box amplifier of this type can be derived from many starting points. I have a pile of 4X150 tubes that I could quickly make a 500W amp out of. And it would work on all modes including SSB which most hams use at least some of the time on voice.

But did you notice something here...I already talked about the main active component that I would design around. You see now how even a simple thing like that can get all kinds of people to think about it because I have a starting point, even if it is just a discussion about it. Everyone in the discussion has an idea of what I have and what I can do with it. And that was all from 1 tube number. I could have said a 3CX800A too. Or I could have said an MRF150. You see, each one has a different design needed to use it. But by giving the part number, most people already know that and look at it from the standpoint of the component chosen.

Now do you understand why this thread without details was a complete waste of time?


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA4WJA on June 13, 2014, 04:49:36 AM
Actually, in addition to the module part numbers or at least the number of the devices/transistors themselves, I assumed we were hoping he'd provide a schematic that HE drew of his amp?  (well, that was what I think would be the LEAST he'd need to do...)
They all have schematics, block diagram, service guides, etc. on line.  

What's the model number of the main unit (TV set itself) you're writing about?
That's the way I've built things....either cobble together something simple, and then draw it out....or most of the time, 'ya draw it out before 'ya pick up the iron...(at least that's the way I've done it for the past 40 years...but maybe I'm just a weird... :))

While at first, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, it is apparent to me that this is all just BS.....whether he is "medicated", drunk, or mentally unbalanced, I don't know....but this IS all just BS...

73,

John,  KA4WJA


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: DL8OV on June 13, 2014, 07:16:43 AM
This afternoon I went on Google and searched for a 'Mitsubishi TV Scan Module'. There are many sites offering repair information on Mitsubishi flat screen TVs, a lot of information on Mitsubishi automobiles and one site that sells spares for Mitsubishi CRT televisions. After spending an hour on their site I could not see anything called a 'Scan Module' and the only heavy duty items I could find were switched mode power supplies.

One further point. The function of any line scan assembly in a TV set is to 1) drive the electron beam horizontally and 2) generate the high voltage for the CRT. Such a module would therefore only have two outputs and neither of these would be suitable for generating an RF signal as their normal frequency of operation is in the KHz range.

We therefore await more technical details from KA5PIU.



Peter DL8OV


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 13, 2014, 01:58:30 PM
Hello.

First off, Yes, I was not able to find much of anything on this.
But, this was one of the very few CRT sets intended for HDTV.
It did have a digital tuner board.
So, I hooked it up to a function generator, and it did very well.
Was it designed for HF service? of course not!
But, ever look at earlier "Linear" amplifiers or the FT-101?
TV sweep tubes!
Yes, television sweep tubes!
Need I say more?
Anyhow, you will see that larger CRT TV sets used the same main board as the smaller sets, but added a much larger sweep section, and a power supply for the sweep section.
This is also done with "Premium" sound, an audio amplifier and extra speakers.
Things don't add up, well, get a life!
TV sweep sections are NOT intended for HF service?
Tell me something I don't already know!
The transistors on the board in question work in the HF region.
Again, you would have to be stupid not to figure out that this was not the intent of the design.
So, get off your ass, and see what else is out there that can do what it was never intended to do!



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 13, 2014, 05:50:26 PM
Hello.

And, to make this clear, the meter I was using is a Dosy!
Just look up "Bird watts".
The Dosy is about 30% optimistic.
So, knowing that, I gave dissipated watts, and I would hope 100% efficient!
That is only the measure of power going in.
I do not have a bird slug for 500 watts, nor do I need one.
1000 watts is the maximum I shoot for.
You can figure volts and amps to figure watts in.
You can take a sampling dummy load, in this case 1%, input 500 watts and get 5 watts out.
And, remember a while back how the FCC ran around and fined dozens of truck stops?
Well, they lost in court!
http://www.texasstar.com/
http://www.copperelectronics.com/cart/
As shipped, all of the export 10 meter radios an "CW units" meet every FCC requirement.
You know all of the mods for the 2 meter rigs, clip the yellow wire or remove this one solder blob?
Well, same thing.
So, yes, a 10 meter amp can be legal, it is this "Peak and Tune" that is the problem.
Thank you.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 13, 2014, 06:55:36 PM
Like I said, this thread has been a complete waste of time. The last 2 ramblings prove it.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W1BR on June 13, 2014, 07:58:25 PM
I feel like I am having a bad dream, and I can't wake up  :o


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N4TTS on June 13, 2014, 08:27:34 PM
If you Google this guy, you'll see a pattern emerge on several internet forums where he comes in and blitzkriegs the group with the same type of drivel on whatever subject until the regulars catch on and call him out for BS.
It's the same MO.

Hello.

Blah, blah, blah.

Enjoy!

He's either mentally challenged or a troll.

Don N4TTS


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 14, 2014, 12:00:58 AM
Hello.

We have gone from taking the sweep module out of a junk TV to insults?
Now, think about this.
TV sets of the Tube era were never designed to be transmitters, yet quite a few were converted for this, the sweep tube works well and the power supply provides the power.
So, I end up with the very same parts, but in solid state?
Lets leave it at that.



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 14, 2014, 03:33:12 AM
Hello.

In addition to providing the HV needed for the CRT, it traces the electron beam across the screen.
True, it only operates at a few kHz, but the required bandwidth of the pulses are the problem.
Radar units send out pulses of usually under ONE kHz.
Look at the math, you need a few MHz of bandwidth.
Now, at look at this.
http://www.ittc.ku.edu/workshops/Summer2004Lectures/Radar_Pulse_Compression.pdf
That was what was intended by "Linear" it has to do with the bandwith.
Anyhow, study radars and how a signal of 600 Hz can occupy 1 MHz.
But, at SVGA, the bandwith required to faithfully reproduce the pulses is around 25 MHz.
http://www.pnto.ru/st/msman/V720_721_71.pdf
Again, there are plenty of radar tutorials that explain the concept.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 15, 2014, 06:47:13 AM
Hello.

And, to make this clear.
This would NOT meet part 97 criteria.
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=cc6c64d9824378ecb9cea09194429620&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title47/47cfr97_main_02.tpl
It has WELL over 15 dB of gain.
And, exhibits this gain between 26 MHz and 28 MHz.
But, it does follow part 97.315 (1).
So, it is legal.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KD8MJR on June 15, 2014, 05:23:03 PM
Threads like this should be deleted by the moderators.
The only thing this thread has going for it is a very catchy title that has drawn in a lot of people.
I see absolutely nothing of substance in it that contributes to the forum.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 15, 2014, 09:08:34 PM
Threads like this should be deleted by the moderators.
The only thing this thread has going for it is a very catchy title that has drawn in a lot of people.
I see absolutely nothing of substance in it that contributes to the forum.


Hello.

The whole point of this is that there is a lot of discarded electronics that can be reused.
Have YOU looked at a discarded computer monitor?
OK, for every inch larger, you all but double the area of the screen.
Once you get to around 38", they weigh around 500 pounds!
Just look at the power supply of one!
With that said, I took a discarded unit apart, as I was thinking the ultimate Tesla coil power unit.
Normally they only can do perhaps 2 MHz on the transistors, house numbers of course, that is just the norm.
But, this was the exception.
Remember that this was a chance discovery, nothing was planned so not a lot of details.
Mitsubishi simply listed the "Deflection Unit".
I was interested in the killer audio section anyway.
So, all the parts got put in a box, and got involved in other things.
Some junked TV sound systems are impressive, some can do 500+ watts.
So, I put it all on hold for a few months.
I use a Tesla coil in a magic trick.
The time comes to see what the thing can do, what currents I can work with, how high a frequency I can work with.
Tesla coils normally only do a few kHz as well, but the higher, the better.
Remember that a Tesla coil is nothing but a CW transmitter.
With that said, look at what can be done.
At one time, Amateur Radio was about experimenting and exploring.
Now, it is all about whining, or so it would seem.
When was the last time YOU built a transmitter, not from a kit, but from a discarded TV?
At one time this was sort of common.
Remember that a Tesla coil is nothing more than a transmitter, in fact, a very simple one.
How impressive is your ham shack to the average person? yawn?, or WOW!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KD8MJR on June 16, 2014, 02:04:06 AM
And this would all be so enlightening and believable if the story had one shred of proof to back it up! I am talking at the very least proof like some detailed pictures which by all accounts you could easily post on here .


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 16, 2014, 03:39:49 AM
Hello.

What I did was take an old TV set apart, discover some interesting parts, and post my discoveries.
There was no intention but to get other hams interested in recycling junk appliances.
This was never intended as a "How to" but a what if.
My opinion is, if you can not understand the basic concept, I do not want to be the one giving you the reason for poking around inside a mains powered device.
This is not like pulling the covers of your talkie.
Others, who ARE aware of this type of thing, point out that this basic design is used on illegal CB, and this is true.
Now, here is the question.
You are telling me that some guy at a CB shop can make a go at this but a bunch of hams can not.
What exactly am I being told?
And, CB types call this the "Solid Rocket" (Solid State) or Tee Vee sand box, as the original design uses TV sweep tubes. or "Sweepstakes II", again, referring to the sweep circuit.
But, DANGER, no user serviceable parts inside.
Lets leave it at that.
CBers are smarter than hams.
Thank you.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KM4AH on June 16, 2014, 03:40:48 AM
I think it has been relatively entertaining myself. I have no idea what he is doing. Most of you don't either. And, he may not.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 16, 2014, 03:41:19 AM
I think the tin foil hat fell off.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 16, 2014, 07:01:00 AM
Hello.

I am reading earlier CB radio material, for research, and it is far more advanced than most hams now.
http://cbradiomagazine.com/S9%20CB%20Magazine/1979%20Feb/S9%20MAGAZINE%20CB%20RADIO%201979%20FEBRUARY%20PG%2061-BACK%20COVER.htm#Antenna%20Rotors%20&%20Rotators
It has nothing to do with CB vs Hams, it has to do with people who want to understand vs someone who wants a heathkit.
Sorry but this was not a heathkit.
This was some junk TV some parts came out of.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: DL8OV on June 16, 2014, 07:34:13 AM
"CBers are smarter than hams"

"I am reading earlier CB radio material, for research, and it is far more advanced than most hams now."

This could be interesting  ;D


Peter DL8OV


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 16, 2014, 07:47:53 AM
LOL Peter

The funny part is the details become less and less with each post. It is just too absurd!

Maybe he has a CB antenna wired to his brain and can't help himself!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N0YXB on June 16, 2014, 09:18:09 AM
Maybe that is it.  His posts are starting to remind of a character in a Philip K. Dick novel.  Perhaps a non-earthly intelligence beamed a pink light into his brain and he now has the ability to turn TVs into unneeded 10 meter amplifiers (or more likely, 11 meter amps).


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 17, 2014, 07:27:00 AM
Hello.

The FCC regs say 4 watts maximum, Except for 27.255 MHz.
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=f7f998e7d24b11a6b5ed66bbad805407&node=47:5.0.1.1.5&rgn=div5#47:5.0.1.1.5.5.149.18
A kit CB radio is legal, heathkit sold them.
But, to go with more power, and be legal, the easy way is Amateur Radio.
A CB antenna is just slightly longer than a 10 meter antenna, so just a trim, and it is there.
Although ham stuff is cheap, used CB stuff is even cheaper.
A bird wattmeter is $370+ for a basic new one, not including slugs.
A Dosy meter is under $100, under $50 for the basic models, and need no slugs.
A person could get on the air with an FT-101, CB antenna, coax and a section of steel pipe for $60 if it is bought used.
And, with $20 of wire and insulators, add one more band.
This will never be the DX dream box, but it will do.
A kid working cutting grass can afford that.
All you idiots are upset that there are ever fewer hams?
What are YOU doing to promote the hobby?
Remember, for a kid, or 3rd world countries, this has to be cheap.
You want details? those are the details.
MOST people look at hams as self centered stink bombs who want the neighborhood to look ugly and cause appliances to fail!
MOST people want their kids to stay away!
Like it or not, that is the way it is.
Add to this Emcomm, running around talking about doom being around the corner?
Kids now carry guns, between the drug dealers and the gang bangers, there is no time for a bunch of stinky guys who act odd.
This project is to provide an amplifier and power supply for a monoband radio, on the cheap.
No complicated beam but a simple vertical mounted to a vent pipe.
No Elmers needed, it is just set up and go!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 17, 2014, 07:52:18 AM
What are YOU doing to promote the hobby?

Well for one thing, not passing on anything you say as fact to anyone. And it would confuse too many people to repeat what you say.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K6AER on June 17, 2014, 09:53:58 AM
If you believe that "everyone into the pool mind set" is best for the hobby then the author has a point of view.

I do not feel the ham radio has gone in the right direction. The hobby was started as a method to  advance electronic education. The other ancillary functions grew out of boredom.

If sheer numbers was a key to education and success then CB would have eclipsed Ham Radio. Sadly to few hams are enjoying the technical side of the hobby. As a result we have ill informed rants of technical "what if's". Many new hams read these postings as gospel and their learning curve will only take longer. 

As an interesting survey I wonder how many hams own a copy of the ARRL Handbook and if so how many have read at least 20% of the materiel?


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N0YXB on June 17, 2014, 04:44:02 PM
MOST people look at hams as self centered stink bombs who want the neighborhood to look ugly and cause appliances to fail!
MOST people want their kids to stay away!
Like it or not, that is the way it is.

Based on all your blathering I suspect that is indeed your experience.  Others likely have different experiences, so you should not generalize so much.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N4TTS on June 17, 2014, 05:05:45 PM
MOST people look at hams as self centered stink bombs who want the neighborhood to look ugly and cause appliances to fail!
MOST people want their kids to stay away!
Like it or not, that is the way it is.

Based on all your blathering I suspect that is indeed your experience.  Others likely have different experiences, so you should not generalize so much.

His numerous and constant references to CB and truckers should provide all the explanation necessary.

Troll

Don N4TTS



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W1BR on June 17, 2014, 05:19:20 PM
A kit CB radio is legal, heathkit sold them.

Up to a point... the transmitter section was prebuilt and aligned. If further alignment was needed the builder needed find a tech with an FCC First or Second Class Radiotelephone to make the transmitter adjustments.

Pete


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K6JH on June 17, 2014, 06:31:51 PM
The FCC regs say 4 watts maximum, Except for 27.255 MHz.
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=f7f998e7d24b11a6b5ed66bbad805407&node=47:5.0.1.1.5&rgn=div5#47:5.0.1.1.5.5.149.18


A careful reading reveals only R/C transmitters are allowed 25W on 27.255 MHz. Normal voice CB's are still 4W AM or 12W PEP for sideband.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 17, 2014, 11:42:18 PM
Hello.

Yes, R/C transmitters, and only on one frequency!
And, yes, the Heathkits were prebuilt to a degree, or should we say, pre-engineered.
There is nothing in the regs that require an FCC first or second phone, then or now.
CB is, and always was, a little more loose with the rules.
Anyone could repair one, as long as they used the exact same parts.
The rules were "The frequency determining elements".
So, heathkit supplied the channel selector board with oscillator.
And, there were 2 distinct models.
One with 6 channels, with or without crystals.
And the other with 23 channels and all crystals supplied.
The very last model had 40 channels, and you could order just that module and upgrade your 23 channel unit.
There was debate on how legal that was, but not my problem.
However it does not change the fact that there is nothing wrong with operating on 10 meters with a 10 meter only amp.
Like it or not, I meet quite a few people by way of CB and GMRS (WQGD204).
Like it or not, quite a few hams are total slobs, others are whackers, and others are, well, odd.
There is this fear of 11 meters, that somehow, this sanctity of ham radio will be violated.
Well, breaking news, hams are nothing special.
The average person sees hams as, well, odd.
Quick question, why would someone even want a tower when VoIP works so well?
Dude, if given a choice between that and Magic Jack? you get the picture.
CB radio, base to base, 100% legit, has a 25 mile range.
That is to say, I can chat to another station, 25 miles away, actually 27 miles, but who is counting. :-X
With the internet interconnected repeaters and talkies, I can kick back and chat well into Mexico.
And that brings up another point, 90% of everything I say on the air is in Spanish!
The average white male is completely lost.
I have had hams send tapes of me chatting away on 10 meters, callsign in English, 100% legal, into the FCC, and they got upset when the FCC told them in effect 'Get a life'.
I go from CB to 10 meters, flip from band to band, but it is 2 radios.
What I have is an antenna with a coil on the base and a relay set.
One position is top end of 10 meters, next bottom end of 10, 11, 12 meters.
On the other end of the coax is the controller and 2 feeds, one for the 11 meters and one for everything else.
I make the jump fast, too fast for just one radio.
In fact, it is not at all uncommon for me to say a few words on 10, jump to 11, say a few words, and jump back to 10.
I can receive on both, at the same time.
GMRS, MURS, whatever else? that is on another radio.
I stay informed, I stay alive, and I drive into Mexico.




Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 18, 2014, 04:52:31 AM

One position is top end of 10 meters, next bottom end of 10, 11, 12 meters.


So, why do you need a 12 meter antenna when you said many times you only operate 10M and 160M AM?


Like it or not, quite a few hams are total slobs, others are whackers, and others are, well, odd.


Well you fit into 2 of the 3 based on what and how you write. The 3rd I can't say as I have never seen you to qualify you to that category.

And as to your interpretation of the rules, depending on which thread you are in, you try to make your interpretation fit to the odd position you take. You tend to pick pieces and parts from the rules to make yourself sound legal. Then others have to come here and set things straight be telling what the whole rule says.


There is this fear of 11 meters, that somehow, this sanctity of ham radio will be violated.
CB radio, base to base, 100% legit, has a 25 mile range.
That is to say, I can chat to another station, 25 miles away, actually 27 miles, but who is counting. :-X
I go from CB to 10 meters, flip from band to band, but it is 2 radios.
I make the jump fast, too fast for just one radio.
In fact, it is not at all uncommon for me to say a few words on 10, jump to 11, say a few words, and jump back to 10.


Sorry, it is not fear, but rather the fact that this site and forums are for ham radio. Probably a majority of the people that come here have no interest in reading about CB here. There are forums for CB. That is the proper place for that.

By the way, how are you coming on finding the details of this 500W amplifier coming. Seems like myself and several others have asked, and nothing seems to appear. It was started by you, so you should know everything about it. But yet we get nothing. So either this amplifier exists and you can give us details, or it does not exist and that is why you can not provide details. You supposedly built it.

You talked about old amps that used sweep tubes. Yep they did. But do you see any new designs marketed that are based on them? I don't. Unless 811s were used as sweep tubes, but based on my little bit of knowledge of history of these, they were not sweep tubes. It can be done, but the price and availability have made these now impractical.

But the point here again is that sweep tubes don't run on the 50V you said you got from the power supply you also took out of the TV. So this would imply solid state. So the whole sweep tube thing was just more verbal vomit to sound credible without providing details of this project idea.

The other point to ask about is why this magic semiconductor, that would be cheap enough to use in TV mass production, is not known about by anyone else but you? Yes even purchased new it would need to be cheap because companies need to be able to sell their products at a reasonable price. I am certain that a $400 price tag TV is not going to contain a $100 semiconductor device for the sweep circuit. And so far I have not seen any semiconductor devices with the ability to produce 500W dissipation at 30 MHz for anywhere near the price that would be practical for consumer electronics in mass production.

So it is time to put up or shut up. Otherwise anything you say anywhere can not be believed by anyone but another nutcase.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 20, 2014, 01:08:51 PM
Hello.

First off, this was at LEAST a 36" TV, and that is minimum, so clearly it is NOT a $400 price tag set.
And, as was implied, I was informed by the CB community that some large screen CRT sets have an independent HV and deflection section, and that some solid state sections can do 27 MHz.
So, a while back, when I came across a Mitsubishi really large CRT set, I took parts out, like the entire flyback section.
I do not have schematics, I asked a CB fan how to connect it.
Yes, I did not know enough.
Well, I put RF to it, and discovered that the upper end is around 32 MHz.
The AM modulation thing? that is pure CB.
But, here is what I do know, if you want 1000 watts on AM, you need a 500 watt carrier, MAXIMUM.
Simple, the carrier level rises with modulation.
So, you can gripe all you want, I was intrigued by the possibility of it in 10 meter service.
You can ask all the questions you want, more likely than not, I can not answer them.
But, take a look at a really large CRT set, what sort of output section is in there?
In the case of a Mitsubishi, it is this aluminum plate with a bunch of pop rivets mounted on the outside of an aluminum box that contains the flyback, much like older tube TVs with that funny looking tube rectifier.
But, be that as it may, it is up to YOU to hunt down an old large (huge?) CRT TV and rip out parts.
And, as far as links, there are plenty of CB sites that explain this, they will show you EXACTLY how to get 800+ watts out of it!
Pictures even!
But, if I did that everyone would be screaming that that is 11 meters and against the law, etc.
So, why do we simply call it what it is, an Amplifier for RF that can work on 10 meters.
A "Cheap 11 meter amplifier"?
As far as the rest goes, look up something to the effect of TV sweep module and Amplifier.
If the CB bunch can make it work, and hams are so much better?
And, again, just like TV sweep tunes were never intended for 10 meters, well?
I would never use an 11 meter amplifier, and, why would I?
The whole point of "Free banding" is to run more power and get away from the CB channels?
Well, like it or not, I can get away from the CB channels, and run more power, and be legal.
This may come as a shock to some of you, but I can run a touch over 1 kW, 28.0 MHz to 29.7 MHz. legally.
Now, think about how stupid this sounds.
Dude, you are an idiot! what are you going to do? tell the FCC I am on 10 meters?


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KD8MJR on June 20, 2014, 02:25:20 PM
Why do people keep feeding this Hoax?  Just stop posting and let this fade into the Garbage Bin.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 20, 2014, 03:11:00 PM
Hello.

I am active in Texas with Both the CB and the 10 meter bunch.
So, there are some hams who are upset, somehow this is wrong.
But, facts be that as it may, I find some of the CB stuff interesting.
Think of it as the guy who has this latest whiz bang radio, and I am totally unimpressed.
Yes, I run the cheapest thing I can get.
But, that is the point!
I have a Telefunken 10 meter radio, and am happy with it!
On 160, marine monoband sets of the 60's and 70's work just fine.
Again, hams get upset if they find AM or FM below 50 MHz, except for 160 and 10.
If DX rolls in on the 2 bands, fine, if not, fine.
That is how I feel about all of it.
Enjoy!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 20, 2014, 07:09:28 PM

Now, think about how stupid this sounds.
Dude, you are an idiot! what are you going to do?

I cant say it any better. You describe your writings perfectly! And I don't have to do a thing. You do it so well all by yourself!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W1BR on June 20, 2014, 08:17:04 PM
Why do people keep feeding this Hoax?  Just stop posting and let this fade into the Garbage Bin.

It is like watching a train wreck... you just can't look away from the carnage.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 21, 2014, 02:05:51 AM
Hello.

As was explained, I was told that some Mitsubishi large screen TV sets have a sweep module that can do above the normal HF.
I decided to try it, and it works.
CB tricks had a little write up about TV sweep sections, both tube and solid state.
I was not aware of that until I went to the flea market today.
But, I was aware of the Mitsubishi large CRT video amplifiers.
In order to make a screen that large display a video image, they have to pump quite a bit of energy on the 3 guns.
SVGA is over 100 MHz, on each gun.
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/monfaq.htm
I do know that this transistors on such a large set will do 25 watts on 220 per gun amplifier, and they are easy to get, they are mounted on the little PC on the CRT socket.
That project is complete, a 2 watt in, 25 watt out amplifier for a talkie.
So, I have the audio section, it does something like 30 volts on its power supply, not useful in a mobile application.
And the sweep module and its power supply, again, not mobile friendly.
So, no priority.
But, am in San Antonio for a few weeks, and get on the air.
One thing led to another, and I end up at the flea markets.
I see the very same module mounted and being used to demo a Dosy meter!
He has a home built dummy load boiling water.
So, I take notes, ask questions, and confirm what I was told.
They can go to 32 MHz.
Again, there are few technical details as I do not know that much about it.
What I do now know is that a 42 inch Mitsubishi set was produced.
It weights 500+ pounds and needs 20 amps at 220 volts!
It does everything the "smaller" sets do, it is just bigger.
And, as far as all the questions, I have learned more from watching the CB types than I ever did with hams.
I am into Tesla coils, love the things.
CB types? some play with them.
Hams? they are too worried about putting up towers and contests.
Get over it, that is what I am seeing.
The orange vest types? ever look at hamsexy?
Dude, you do not see CB types driving around with red lights and sirens, getting arrested.
Quite a few are licensed Amateur Radio operators. and run 10 meters.
It is super easy, and legal, to tune a monopole to 10 meters, and add a bit of base load for 11 meters.
Use a relay inside the base, a trunk mount works fine, and jump from one band to the other.
One feeds an 11 meter radio, the other 10 meters.
Not only is this easier, it is the law.
Now, with that said, THAT is why there are 2 radios in one box!



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 21, 2014, 04:51:52 AM
It weights 500+ pounds and needs 20 amps at 220 volts!
It does everything the "smaller" sets do, it is just bigger.

I got a CB that weighs 800 lbs and draws 30A on 480V 3 phase. It puts out the legal 4 watts.

I got a 10 KW 20 meter amplifier that weighs 6 oz and draws .5A on 12V DC.

I can make up and post ridiculous claims too! And the best part is I can say it and then say I know nothing about it...just like you did.

Since your CB good buddies have all the answers, why don't you ask them for the details? You claim they are so smart. Prove it. Again, put up or shut up.



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W1BR on June 22, 2014, 07:06:43 AM
I see the very same module mounted and being used to demo a Dosy meter!
He has a home built dummy load boiling water.


I guess Dosy-Watts are a bit different than Bird-Watts??   ;D


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 22, 2014, 07:41:35 AM
I see the very same module mounted and being used to demo a Dosy meter!
He has a home built dummy load boiling water.


I guess Dosy-Watts are a bit different than Bird-Watts??   ;D

Hello.

Yes, I have found that this is the case.
And, the Bubbler is a device common in some CB shops around here.
A non inductive resistor is placed in a steel pipe with mineral oil and sized so it WILL get hot.
This does nothing special, it is just for show.
A glass bottle and small resistor will do the same thing.
As far as the amp goes, take the carrier, add the amount of modulation, remember that this is HIGH LEVEL modulation, and you come up with the peak power.
Once you do that, the numbers are correct.
Remember, the audio modulation is from its own power supply and was not figured in.
Ask anyone who runs an AM radio station that uses a "Modulation transformer" or "Swinging choke" how this works.
The chief advantage to this is the audio quality.
I am NOT going for El Crapo sound.
I want "Broadcast Quality" and use a Shure microphone, XLR connectors, proper matching transformer, the whole bit.
Although 600 to 700 watts could be done, I run around 250 watts.
This is almost a radio talk show, but without any music, think the ARRL thing or "Newsline".
And, before anyone gets excited, this is a followup to the "El Azteco" show that I host, broadcast.
There is no violation of the rules, no money is involved and it totally deals with the issues of the community, it is an on air version of Blog del Narco.
http://www.elblogdelnarco.info/
That, and this, are opposition to the drug cartels.
Do NOT kid yourself, this is nothing to play with, YOU can end up dead if you screw with it.
I was told that if I did not stop, a cop would die, Bexar county deputy Kenneth Vann was killed within a 3 minute window after I was told this.
Both I and the person at the counter heard this.
I was at the Whataburger in San Antonio when this happened.
I am known as PITA, the Pain In The Ass.
Do a websearch on me and you will find that I have thousands of hits, very popular in the community.
But, if you want to get all upset and push the issue, come on down!
The telephone number for the local newspaper is (210)250-3000.
They had Philip True popped.
Or, how about Stephen Smith? the San Antonio cop?
Yes, I play with CB, a place where anyone can leave a tip, or say what is on their mind, or what have you.
That is what I do with radio, I effect change in the community.
Do YOU have what it takes?


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: DL8OV on June 22, 2014, 07:59:13 AM
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Abraham Lincoln was a wise man, my time on this thread is done.

Peter DL8OV



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 22, 2014, 12:07:45 PM
Those thousands of hits come from all the times you write in this and many other forums. So it is self made popularity. Nice try to fool people though. Too bad smarter people know better.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WB2WIK on June 22, 2014, 04:03:43 PM
Just post a few pictures of the finished product working on 10m.

That's pretty easy, would take me about two minutes.

Then we'll know what you're talking about.

Otherwise, it's drivel. ;)


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 22, 2014, 06:43:51 PM
Hello.

Perhaps you did not read, the thing is in Sinaloa Mexico.
With that said, the larger the diagonal measure, by the exponent the area grows.
http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/geometry-plane/squares.php
Given that, a 46 inch TV/Monitor would have huge everything.
At this point I really do not care, I am looking for the largest defunct TV I can find!
This started as a solid state Tesla coil project.
The whole point of this was, again, the byproduct of a Tesla coil project to people wanting detailed instructions.
Again, the 10 meter was just an accidental discovery.
With that said, the drivers for the guns for a 42 inch monitor would have to drive 200 watts each gun.
SVGA requires around 150 MHz in bandwidth.
They were built to around 48 inches.
That, and noting 10 meters, is my next project.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W1BR on June 23, 2014, 07:21:56 AM
Great. A Telsa coil being excited by a 28 MHz TV sweep generator.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 23, 2014, 08:26:30 AM
Great. A Telsa coil being excited by a 28 MHz TV sweep generator.

Hello.

No, a Tesla coil being excited by a few kHz at most.
I was told by a CB'er that some Mitsubishi TV sweep finals can work at 27 MHz.
This is in fact the case.
So, my question was, what is the upper limit?
JRC designs several generic boards for OEM, nothing new there.
Just like the power supply is one other OEM, the audio amplifier is another, etc.
Normal TV sets have the HV section as a part of the main board, and only operate a few kHz.
But, computer monitors operate with a MUCH broader level of signals.
And the larger sets can not have everything on one board.
The largest sets were around 46".
The power requirements grow exponentially with size.
Look at an SVGA monitor, at 34 inches each gun would need around 25 watts of drive at VHF.
And the sweep circuit would have to be at least a few hundred watts.
But, at 46", the CRT gun drive would be around 200 watts on VHF and the sweep circuit would be thousands of watts.
The voltage can not go past a given level or X-Rays are produced, so the amplifier in the sweep circuit has the be unusually linear for a sweep circuit, and my guess as to why the unusually high frequency ability.
But, I was thinking a few kHz, for a Tesla coil.
If I do come across a really large set, and the sweep circuit works to 10 meters, great, a legal limit 10 meter amp.
If not, a large Tesla coil.
Whatever the case, the gun driver amplifiers will yield excellent VHF amplfiers.
The sound system is great for a sort of boom box.
The power supplies allow for powering the radio.
In short, I will work with what is given me, and that was the point.
This was never intended as a how to tutorial, and I am not interested in repair of the set.
Once a really large screen CRT goes, replacement? why?
Modern LCD sets do everything a CRT set does, and use way less power.
But, with that said, I was removing parts to see what they do, nothing more.
This bouncing off in tangents about schematics, etc.
Dude, this was a junk TV!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W1BR on June 23, 2014, 08:33:31 AM
Show us some photos, and some legitimate measurements made with reputable test equipment.  Otherwise, you are just producing generic verbiage with no technical foundation or validity.  Anyone can make wild ass claims.

Tell ya what... why don't you write up your reclaimed 700 watt linear using reclaimed 46" TV parts, and send in to QEX for publication... if that fails, there is always CQ :)  Put up, or shut up.



Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 23, 2014, 09:14:04 AM
Funny how we started with a sweep amp at 600W for 10 M to now a gun amp at 200W for VHF. All with no details, photos, schematics, or even some part numbers, from used TVs, by pulling out the modules and hooking them up to radios, apparently with no mods. And the BS rolls on...and on...and on...

But he is an expert in everything. Just ask him. He will cloud the issue so much you would forget what was asked, and the question was never answered. Just like here, CBs, tesla coils, and a hundred other things, but no details on subject. Classic example of BS.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K8AXW on June 23, 2014, 09:45:27 AM
FIB:  Very similar to an infamous PA ham who, while very intelligent and knowledgeable, is a PITA because of the BS. 

The best thing to do is ignore!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 23, 2014, 09:57:55 AM
Hello.

Again, no one said anything about no mods, and it is clear that mods were done to get one on 11 meters.
No schematics? this is a JUNK TV!
And, 600 watts of sweep from this set, and 25 watts VHF.
(If I were to find the largest set, yes, I am guessing 200 watts on the gun amps and thousands of watts on the sweep circuit.
Schematics were provided for an SVGA monitor and the formula for taking diagonal measure inches and converting it to square inches and the formula for figuring the amount of power required.
Like it or not, there ARE CB types involved.
And, taking large computer monitor modules and making 11 meter amplifiers out of them are indeed on the web, some hams here referred to it!
My point was that it can do more than just 11 meters.
This was not my design, and I have stated so several times.
The only thing I might have done new is suggest that this be used on 10 meters.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 23, 2014, 01:47:26 PM
FIB:  Very similar to an infamous PA ham who, while very intelligent and knowledgeable, is a PITA because of the BS. 

The best thing to do is ignore!

Yea your probably right. You just can't fight stupidity with knowledge. And I refuse to lower my mental capabilities any further so this idiot understands.

He is so full of s--- that he cant even keep track of what he writes. Like someone said, a train wreck that never ends. For the first time, I am actually going to put someone on ignore. He won't learn, and he shares nothing of value...unless you like BS and dribble.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 23, 2014, 06:22:46 PM
Hello.

There is a nifty article on CB tricks, except they call it a "One Gallon Amp for almost free!"
Yes, they take the basic design of this, and push it to nearly 1000 watts.
But, schematics? there you will find them!
I looked at what I had, and asked myself, can this thing work 10 meters.
I did not design it, I simply followed the design myself.
At that point I was aware that it was the intent to drive it for maximum "swing".
So, I backed off the drive, way off!
And, of course, no 11 meters.
Several people got this CB amplifier mentality, and, yes, that is where the entire idea came from.
But, that is not my intent.
So, you, as others have already done, can look at the CB version, it is all on the web.
And, it was only after reading this that I decided to even consider this idea.
Larger Computer monitors require larger power in video as well, and 25 watts is the output I can get from the gun driver assembly of this set, that is per channel.
But, a 46 inch Monitor should be good for around 200 watts on the gun drivers, theory.
With that said, I am done with this.
Now, the question is a very simple one.
A CB group can take a junk TV, and convert the parts to an amplifier, clearly with little help.
Why do hams have so much trouble?
Remember, I did NOT come up with this, some CB guy did!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K8AXW on June 23, 2014, 08:28:59 PM
FIB:  Please tell me about this "ignore" option.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WA7PRC on June 23, 2014, 08:58:17 PM
FIB:  Please tell me about this "ignore" option.
It's on the left side, below the callsign:
(http://www.eham.net/html/ehamforum/smf/Themes/eham/images/english/ignore.gif)

vy 73,
Bryan WA7PRC


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K8AXW on June 23, 2014, 09:04:50 PM
TY.  It's one of those things that I've failed to see!! 


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W1JKA on June 24, 2014, 03:08:36 AM
Re: K8AXW  reply #97

 Wait a bit and PIU will recommend an amplifier design for your eye glasses. Talk about amplified Ham Radio BS, has anyone had direct experience with the Texas Topper 5 watt QRP amp from QRPME.com which is based on old empty tuna fish can technology?


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: G3RZP on June 24, 2014, 05:52:23 AM
>which is based on old empty tuna fish can technology?<

Somebody has to say it - sounds a bit fishy!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 24, 2014, 07:43:17 AM
Hello.

CRT themed transistors are discontinued as CRT's themselves are discontinued.
The rest?
At this point, who really cares? :P


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K8AXW on June 24, 2014, 08:07:01 AM
 ;D  The IGNORE thingy on the left works great!! 


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N4TTS on June 24, 2014, 09:22:03 AM
;D  The IGNORE thingy on the left works great!! 

Sure does. I have purged myself of the drivel master. It's nice to have good ol' eHam back the way it should be.

Don N4TTS


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K6AER on June 24, 2014, 09:36:11 AM
I have not seen any postings from W8JI lately. Is he OK?


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KI6LZ on June 24, 2014, 10:54:24 AM
Last post he said it was time for drag racing season and time to look around for some additional work.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: WA7PRC on June 24, 2014, 11:48:55 AM
Last post he said it was time for drag racing season and time to look around for some additional work.
Drag strips around here (Pacific NW) have been open for months.
One of these daze, I'd like to get my racer back together & on the 'strip (sigh).

vy 73,
Bryan WA7PRC
NHRA ET6201


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KD8MJR on June 24, 2014, 03:03:16 PM
You people do know that he's probably posting back on some CB forum of how he has made baffones of the Ham community with a crazy story about using TV's to make 500 watt SS Amps and that he got over 7000 views 8 pages and several dozen replies.   With this thread he certainly does not have to lie about certain things to make Hams look like idiots, he just has to omit or twist what the content of the replies are. I am pretty sure one of them he's twisting around and saying is "Yes and they are even asking for pictures of the Amp  ;D Stupid Hams!".

 I am really shocked that the moderators did not lock down this thread from page one but I guess blatantly inaccurate information is not censored. (It should be)

And please no one reply to my post, this guy is thriving on the amount of views and the replies.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 24, 2014, 05:49:35 PM
Hello.

Dude! you nailed it!
And the funny part is,,, I even named the website!
http://www.cbtricks.com/
You really can take a SVGA monitor, rip out the module of a large screen TV, and use it on 11 meters, that part is 100% correct.
BUT, this is an SVGA monitor, NOT a common TV.
I really do operate on 11 meters with a legit radio and 10 meters with a whatever.
If in San  Antonio you will find me on 28.385 MHz
You people have no idea of how much entertainment value you are!
You guys need schematics?
How hard can it be to connect a class C amplifier, and it already has its own power supply?!
Let me see, find the input, connect a 50 ohm non inductive resistor from input to ground and whatever level of drive planned series from SO-239 center pin to input?
Output, this is nothing more than a pi network to 50 ohms out.
Dude, I was doing this when I was 12 years old with salvaged B&W TV parts!
You have made the WEEK at Trader's Village!
Even people who have no real interest are enjoying this.
I push Amateur Radio, and try to get the scufflaws to behave.
But, if you call around to the local clubs, they will tell you.
1, I am nuts.
2, I have by far one of the cleanest signals around.
3, I really do breath fire, dance with machetes, and play scratch golf.
So, you see, this is summer, kids are out and about, and we are having fun.
Why pay to dunk the clown with the ball when we have hams to mess with?
We are ALL Spanish speakers, so we get abuse from the ham community, and do fight back!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N4TTS on June 24, 2014, 08:56:41 PM
Dude! you nailed it!
 so we get abuse from the ham community, and do fight back!

Just like the rest of the San Antonio trash you hang with over there. Tubby and all the rest of you drug abusing ignorant scum who have done nothing but cause trouble since y'all cheated your way to a ham license.
All of you are garbage and always will be.

You and the rest do nothing but cause trouble no matter where you show up. The people in this forum may not know the story but a lot of the rest of us do.

Those of us who are familiar with your crap are wise to the antics you've pulled since your CB days. None of you have changed a bit.
You bring your slime to a new venue but it always ends up the same. You try to troll your way into ruining the enjoyment of normal people and don't quit until you've made it unbearable for decent people. Then you move your troll activities to the next victims.

You and your ilk are sociopaths not unlike Jeffery Dahmer.

I've witnessed it more times than I can count over the last ten plus years, first on the radio and then on the internet.

Anyone who doubts what I'm saying, just read these threads. There's plenty more where this comes from.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/san-antonio-tx/TROI8JS3O4D9M08EG

http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?134119-Pledge-of-Allegiance/page9


Don N4TTS


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 24, 2014, 09:38:41 PM
Hello.

We are fully aware of all of that.
But, first off, none of that bunch speaks Spanish.
And, actually, I got more into amateur radio first, CB later.
There have been arrests, threats, the whole bit.
This does not change the fact that it is possible to remove the sweep driver module from a large screen CRT monitor (SVGA or above) and produce a 10 meter amplifier.
And yes, we play on CB, but run legal power, and I push getting licensed.
And yes, I and the rest of the bunch here are laughing.
You are going to tell me that you need a schematic to connect an amplifier?
Lets leave it at that.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N4TTS on June 24, 2014, 09:42:13 PM
We are fully aware of all of that.

See, I told you.

Don N4TTS


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K8AXW on June 24, 2014, 09:58:36 PM
It's pretty hard to cause trouble if you simply ignore him.  As long as he gets answers and even "views," he continues to make an ass out of us.

Use the "Ignore" option..... It's great!!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 25, 2014, 04:40:33 AM
Hello.

We went from taking an old CRT monitor to amplifier conversion, there is no question that it indeed works, to you guys making an ass of yourselves.
We, the collective group here, run 100% legal, we have to.
Think about this for a minute, I do my thing at a flea market, thousands of visitors daily.
Hams come by, act stupid, make comments about CB to the FCC, and the FCC looks.
The FCC is impressed by the auto switcher that selects a CB or 10 meter radio on transmit and the correct loading coil, mutes the other radios line, than on receive isolates the 2 receivers.
The Amateur Radio classes and crystal radio classes were the finishing touch.
So, who is making an ass of who?
You guys are making an ass of yourselves.
Ever watch Governor Rick Perry when he does the outdoor announcements?
I am the guy on the horse with the Texas flag.
I did the same thing with GW Bush.
I have 2 radios in my private vehicle.
300 to 550 kHz and 1 to 32 MHz and 30 to 512 MHz and 600 to 999 MHz, 2 radios, and both are portable, one is a large talkie.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 25, 2014, 04:49:45 AM
Yep ignore makes things much quieter here!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: N4TTS on June 25, 2014, 06:43:37 AM
Use the "Ignore" option..... It's great!!

You're right. It's the easiest and best way. Done.

Don N4TTS


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 25, 2014, 04:24:56 PM
Hello.

The CB gods are pleased!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 26, 2014, 08:21:16 AM
Dude! you nailed it!
 so we get abuse from the ham community, and do fight back!

Just like the rest of the San Antonio trash you hang with over there. Tubby and all the rest of you drug abusing ignorant scum who have done nothing but cause trouble since y'all cheated your way to a ham license.
All of you are garbage and always will be.

You and the rest do nothing but cause trouble no matter where you show up. The people in this forum may not know the story but a lot of the rest of us do.

Those of us who are familiar with your crap are wise to the antics you've pulled since your CB days. None of you have changed a bit.
You bring your slime to a new venue but it always ends up the same. You try to troll your way into ruining the enjoyment of normal people and don't quit until you've made it unbearable for decent people. Then you move your troll activities to the next victims.

You and your ilk are sociopaths not unlike Jeffery Dahmer.

I've witnessed it more times than I can count over the last ten plus years, first on the radio and then on the internet.

Anyone who doubts what I'm saying, just read these threads. There's plenty more where this comes from.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/san-antonio-tx/TROI8JS3O4D9M08EG

http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?134119-Pledge-of-Allegiance/page9


Don N4TTS

Hello.

To make this clear.
Tommy, tubby and the rest are not accepted in the Amateur Radio community or the CB community.
I do OK in the Amateur Radio community, but that is a bunch of aging white guys.
Where I fit in is the Latino community first.
That part of CB radio I fit in speaks mostly Spanish.
The big barrier to an Amateur Radio license is not technical knowledge but the lack of English.
I do not have any problems with my peers.
If you are the average ham, a white male, you are not my peer.
If you have been on google or watching any news, the world cup was all about soccer.
I do not like American woman, and that pretty much ends it right there.
But, be that as it may, the "Mexicans" are super careful about following the rules, they have to.
Unlike a bunch of American idiots, they have this Green Card mentality.
They can be 3rd and 4th generation US citizen, but the police, authority, etc, scares them.
Morons with yellow vests are to be avoided at all costs!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W1BR on June 26, 2014, 08:35:45 AM
And he is a flaming bigot to boot.  On ignore.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 26, 2014, 09:16:56 PM
Hello.

First off, bigot, no, just avoid the problems.
And, second schematics.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2014-title21-vol8/xml/CFR-2014-title21-vol8-sec1020-10.xml
Federal law requires that CRT equipped sets over 32" have a sealed HV section that ensures servicing only by a qualified tech.
Schematics of the HV sections of such sets are not available as for the life of the CRT they are under warranty.
The CRT and HV section are one riveted together unit.
The reason that a 3rd party produces the HV section is that the units produced for the US market had CRT units produced in the US.
Out of the 500 pounds of the set, over 400 of it was the CRT.
But, that should not be an issue.
In tube type sets, did the hams ask for schematics of the TV to understand the sweep tubes?
Of course not!
First off, the internet was not around then, so looking that up would have been harder.
I use "Practical TV servicing" as my guide.
I pretty much just follow the signal.
When I find a large silver box attached to a CRT with one thick wire going to the CRT proper, it is safe to assume that is the HV section.
When the deflection coils go to this silver box it is safe to assume that this is the entire sweep circuit.
As taking the entire set home was not only not practical but really not possible, I took what I felt were desirable parts off.
I do not need schematics for things like AC input, that is just a question of taking notes.
Audio amplifiers are real easy to figure out.
The rest is just careful observation.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 27, 2014, 04:04:33 AM
Its funny to see how many PIU posts I don't see. Can only imagine what stupidity is coming with his posts. But he is the expert at everything. Just ask him, he will tell you many magical things, but never answer the question. Then he will baffle you with BS till you forget the question.

I thought the thread was legitimate, but the baffling process started shortly after. Don't be suckered in. Just ignore him and let his threads die. It feeds his ego each time someone responds to him. More the pity that he has to come here and preach BS to stir the pot to feel good about himself. What a pathetic life he must have. To need to make fools out of people who could be interested. To repeat his BS 500 times to try to make it look true.

I have him on ignore, but based on the other replies, his BS keeps on going. Because he feels so good when people respond to him. Which in its own way makes us the idiots for feeding his ego.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 27, 2014, 04:34:23 AM
Hello.

Actually, we, meaning the collective CB community, are enjoying this.
It was another ham, who says he is an engineer, who convinced me that I should concentrate on whatever I can make money on.
Used TV sets are a parts supply, nothing more.
I do not care about whatever they were doing, I am interested only in what I can do with it.
Schematics to a defunct TV would do me no good, I am not rebuilding that TV.
And that is the point.
What are the RF limits? hook up a signal generator and see.
This is all trial and error.
Burger Time!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 27, 2014, 07:39:27 PM
Hello.

Clearly, this is a much smaller set.
But, look a the frequencies!
http://www.eserviceinfo.com/downloadsm/23454/Mitsubishi_DP2070SB.html
The video drivers should be able to do 220 MHz.
I have no idea what the sweep circuit can do.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KB4QAA on June 27, 2014, 10:36:16 PM
Quote
Quote from: KA5PIU on June 24, 2014, 05:49:35 PM
Dude! you nailed it!
 so we get abuse from the ham community, and do fight back!
The convenience being that as both a ham and CB'er he can abuse himself and cut us out of the process!


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: G3RZP on June 27, 2014, 11:36:39 PM
It would help if he could write in correct English, rather than dis-jointed sentences.


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: K8AXW on June 28, 2014, 07:47:46 AM
Peter, why are you wallowing around in this pig pen?


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: KA5PIU on June 28, 2014, 08:41:14 AM
Peter, why are you wallowing around in this pig pen?

First off, hams in the pig pen.
Second, try it! you might like it.
What I am doing is taking used CRT TVs apart, for the parts.
The total investment is zero.
Lets say you did NOT do the sweep module thing.
That one set yielded a nifty audio system that has its own power supply.
2 RF tuners, one with the "Sat-Link", that means TV channels 2 to 83+ or 55 to 2100 MHz tuning range.
In IR remote receiver and wiring all over the place, including the deflection coils and screws, nuts, bolts, etc.
The deflection/HV amp doing HV was just a bonus.
The audio sections of better TV sets can exceed 90 watts.
And, everything is designed for 100 to 260 volts AC operation, no more odd power requirements, the set runs on domestic power.
Again, the total investment is ZERO! so, what do you have to lose?
By the time someone else has finished looking up schematics, I will have the audio section playing my tune.
I will have parts of the power supply powering an old factory car radio I got at a junk yard.
I have a dozen friends who do wood working and if the TV came in a wood cabinet, that gets reused.
Did I mention that you incur no costs?


Title: RE: Cheap 10 meter amp
Post by: W9FIB on June 28, 2014, 12:05:09 PM
He still shoveling more BS?