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Author Topic: Offbeat Phonetics  (Read 10690 times)
G3RZP
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Posts: 1321




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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2015, 01:35:07 AM »

Standardisation is great when the standard is applicable to the situation. Unfortunately, the 'standard' is not very good when looked at in terms of communications theory - which is why, in practice, when it falls down, other 'standards' get used.

Remember that few, if any, other radio services push the SNR and QRM levels to those common in the amateur service.
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DRBEN
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Posts: 337




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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2015, 07:39:28 AM »

Standardisation is great when the standard is applicable to the situation. Unfortunately, the 'standard' is not very good when looked at in terms of communications theory - which is why, in practice, when it falls down, other 'standards' get used.

Remember that few, if any, other radio services push the SNR and QRM levels to those common in the amateur service.

Let's look at a little history:

The ICAO developed this system in the 1950s in order to account for discrepancies that might arise in communications as a result of multiple alphabet naming systems coexisting in different places and organizations.[5]

In the official[6] version of the alphabet, the non-English spellings Alfa and Juliett are used. Alfa is spelled with an f as it is in most European languages because the English and French spelling alpha would not be pronounced properly by native speakers of some other languages – who may not know that ph should be pronounced as f.  Juliett is spelled with a tt for French speakers, because they may otherwise treat a single final t as silent. In some English versions of the alphabet, one or both of these may have their standard English spelling.[7]

The final choice of code words for the letters of the alphabet and for the digits was made after hundreds of thousands of comprehension tests involving 31 nationalities. The qualifying feature was the likelihood of a code word being understood in the context of others. For example, football has a higher chance of being understood than foxtrot in isolation, but foxtrot is superior in extended communication.[9] [Remember, the goal is a code that will be understood by many speakers who are NOT native English speakers. The goal was not to impose an English language code. Many of the words, while used in English are also used in other Western languages.

The pronunciation of the code words varies according to the language habits of the speaker. To eliminate wide variations in pronunciation, recordings and posters illustrating the pronunciation desired by the ICAO are available.[9][10] However, there are still differences in pronunciation between the ICAO and other agencies, and the ICAO has conflicting Roman-alphabet and IPA transcriptions. Also, although all codes for the letters of the alphabet are English words, they are not in general given English pronunciations. Assuming that the transcriptions are not intended to be precise, only 11 of the 26—Bravo, Echo, Hotel, Juliet(t), Kilo, Mike, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Whiskey, and Zulu—are given English pronunciations by all these agencies, though not always the same English pronunciations.

The first version was developed by the ICAO, in 1951. To identify the deficiencies of the new alphabet, testing was conducted among speakers from 31 nations, principally by the governments of the United Kingdom and the United States. Confusion among words like Delta, Nectar, Victor, and Extra, or the unintelligibility of other words during poor receiving conditions were the main problems. After much study, only the five words representing the letters C, M, N, U, and X were replaced. The ICAO sent a recording of the new Radiotelephony Spelling Alphabet to all member states in November 1955.[8][9] The final version given in the table above was implemented by the ICAO on 1 March 1956,[22] and the ITU adopted it no later than 1959 when they mandated its usage via their official publication, Radio Regulations.[23] Because the ITU governs all international radio communications, it was also adopted by all radio operators, whether military, civilian, or amateur (ARRL). It was finally adopted by the IMO (International Maritime Organization) in 1965.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

The NATO alphabet is a compromise because of its international nature, but is probably the best tool now available. Its code words should be used first but where conditions are poor and comprehension is affected, other words can and should be used.

In any case, the ITU requires the ITU/NATO/ICAO alphabet to be used by all radio stations. There is one exception to the rule. "However, stations of the same country, when communicating between themselves, may use any other table recognized by their administration. " (http://life.itu.ch/radioclub/rr/ap14.htm)

As far as I know, the FCC has not officially recognized any other alphabet. Thus because the U.S. is a signatory to the ITU rules, the ITU alphabet is the only one that should be used in normal radiocommunication activities.



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SOFAR
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Posts: 1492




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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2015, 08:05:55 AM »

Oh geez... I don't need to know how the sausage is made.

If that's the standard phonetics so be it. Some people will nit-pick and complain no matter what.
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SWMAN
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Posts: 1349




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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2015, 08:49:09 AM »

TR = Tuna Radio or Tune a Radio
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W3WN
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Posts: 849




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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2015, 10:21:18 AM »

Is it too much to ask that standard ICAO phonetics be used on the ham bands ? Although hams are not "professionals" by definition, use of ICAO phonetics would reflect positively on amateur radio. I cringe every time I hear made-up phonetics that my toddler niece might come up with. Print out a copy of the ICAO phonetic alphabet and stick it on the wall of your shack. It's no great task to learn it and it would reflect upon your standards as an operator.
You can ask.

Don't expect much, though.
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G3RZP
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Posts: 1321




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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2015, 11:46:03 AM »

If it's so good, why ahs it been found for years to fall down under poor SNR conditions? 2m SSB DXers were finding this consistently some 40 years ago.......
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N9AVY
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Posts: 98




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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2015, 12:26:58 PM »

Once saw a station on PSK31 use phonetics !   Smiley
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W5CBO
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Posts: 98




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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2015, 12:30:55 PM »

So I can't use W5 Crazy Barack Obama?
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N9FB
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Posts: 2388




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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2015, 01:05:58 PM »

So I can't use W5 Crazy Barack Obama?

well, i have little doubt that would work well.  if you were to try something less opinion-based and more factual like Christian Barack Obama the problem would no doubt be that more than 50% of hams would probably mis-hear it as MBO: Muslim Barack Obama  Wink
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KS2G
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Posts: 1081




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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2015, 08:45:25 PM »

In any case, the ITU requires the ITU/NATO/ICAO alphabet to be used by all radio stations. There is one exception to the rule. "However, stations of the same country, when communicating between themselves, may use any other table recognized by their administration. " (http://life.itu.ch/radioclub/rr/ap14.htm)

As far as I know, the FCC has not officially recognized any other alphabet. Thus because the U.S. is a signatory to the ITU rules, the ITU alphabet is the only one that should be used in normal radiocommunication activities.

The only reference to phonetics that I see in in Part 97 is:

§97.119   Station identification

(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source o
f the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions...

(2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;


Note that is says "a" phonetic alphabet, but does not specify any particular one.
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AB1LT
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Posts: 105




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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2015, 07:01:25 AM »

The one I dislike the most is kilowatt form "K", because I always write down "KW" and then have to correct it.

LOL

73

- Dan
Same here.  The first time I heard it, it was like fingernails on a chalkboard.
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K4PIH
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Posts: 11




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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2015, 10:16:36 AM »

A case can be easily made for uniformity when using phonetic words to communicate letters.

For over 50 years that uniformity has existed in the ITU/NATO/UN/ICAO alphabet. It's phonetics should always be the FIRST choice. In some situations, such has heavy QRN QRM, it may be necessary to repeat a call sign using another letter name or names.

Here's an example from another field. If I call a certain sandwich a "submarine", almost all North American English speakers will know what I'm talking about. If a particular individual or group does not, I can then fall back on one of the less known regional names: hoagie, hero, po'boy, grinder, etc.

In Canada, some letters of the ITU alphabet are part of every combination and permutation of the questions used for the basic ham licence.

You left out Muffaletta!

If I'm in the hospital emergency room and something needs to be done for me without delay, I expect to hear the doctor say "stat" (a Latin word everyone around him or her will understand). I would not expect to hear ASAP, PDQ, NOW, immediately, on the double, or pronto.

The phonetics we often hear are mostly from the list used by the U.S. military in World War II and from the list used by English speaking telephone operators and Western Union workers back in the old days when you could not directly dial long distance numbers but could end a real telegram that a boy on a bike would hand deliver to your door.
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DRBEN
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Posts: 337




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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2015, 10:26:13 AM »

In any case, the ITU requires the ITU/NATO/ICAO alphabet to be used by all radio stations. There is one exception to the rule. "However, stations of the same country, when communicating between themselves, may use any other table recognized by their administration. " (http://life.itu.ch/radioclub/rr/ap14.htm)

As far as I know, the FCC has not officially recognized any other alphabet. Thus because the U.S. is a signatory to the ITU rules, the ITU alphabet is the only one that should be used in normal radiocommunication activities.

The only reference to phonetics that I see in in Part 97 is:

§97.119   Station identification

(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source o
f the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions...

(2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;


Note that is says "a" phonetic alphabet, but does not specify any particular one.


Part 97 does not specify a particular phonetic alphabet. However, the ITU species the ITU/NATO alphabet. Since the U.S. is a signatory to the ITU treaty, the ITU rule is cosidered to be U.S. law.

Article Six, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution provides that the United States Constitution, federal statutes, and TREATIES are "the supreme law of the land."

U.S. courts have ruled that a treaty provision cannot be ignored unless it is in direct conflict with U.S. domestic law. Since Part 97 says "a" rather than "any" phonetic alphabet, the ITU rule complements Part 97 by requiring a specific alphabet; there is no conflict.
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WI8P
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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2015, 11:27:23 AM »

I'm partial to "Wild Indians 8 Pizza".
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N2LXM
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Posts: 116




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« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2015, 11:43:47 AM »

I like mine, N2LXM,  November Two Lima X-ray Mike, or for the pile ups, Not Two Lousy  X-rated Movie. Seems to work well that way.
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