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Author Topic: Are Windows "Upgrade to 10" Popups Annoying? There is an app for that..  (Read 6584 times)
K5TED
Member

Posts: 229




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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2016, 07:22:43 PM »


As for companies, perhaps you are not privy to the wider view, but many large company IT departments are adopting Win 10 very matter of factly. Most system orders are delivered with Win7 with option to upgrade to Win 10 and most are opting to upgrade. It works fine. The only issues right now are around compatibility between O365 apps and legacy BI systems. That will be worked out.


I don't know about the wider view, but as far as the delivery of machines goes you have it exactly 180 degrees out of phase.

Machines are delivered with Windows 10 and set to be backwards compatible with installint Windows 7. That's what my clients are asking me to do.

None of them is asking me to install Windows 10.

It is, in fact, difficult to buy machines pre-loaded with Windows 7. Microsoft doesn't want them to be delivered with Windows 7 because that skews their numbers. MS prefers to count Win10 boxes. Win 7 boxes are officially discouraged.

But whatever...




Well, I guess if you want to line up at the IT urinal, I can tell you that the " downgrade rights from Windows 10 Pro." is pretty moot in many instances. The last two current model, dated last month build, Elitedesk Pro 800 G2 machines I received last week came with Win7 LOADED, and Win10 popped up as an upgrade option.

Vendors will vary for the time being, but the overall picture is that right now, today, unless your IT department spend consists of a trip to BestBuy every two or three weeks for new phone case or USB adaptor, your corporate vendor will supply you with Win7 machines and Win10 upgrade optional, or will provide machines with your company standard image preloaded. As time goes by, Win7 will not be an option nor a standard. Therefore, ergo, and to whit, Win10 will become the standard. Regardless.

Thing is, if someone wants to see if their machine is eligible for a free Win10 upgrade, run the installer, and if it comes back with issues, either fix them or don't install. Simple as that. No need for all the falderal and forum frothing over something, or a direct derivative thereof, that will become the de facto standard.

Sheesh...  Huh Roll Eyes
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K7EXJ
Member

Posts: 875




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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2016, 07:35:06 PM »

As far as the government goes, I wouldn't look to it for IT guidance. They can't even sort out when classified emails are being forwarded to homebrew servers...\

You do realize that "government" doesn't simply refer to the Federal government.... right?

Quote
My Win10 devices to date:

OptiPlex GX745 running Win10 Pro and everything it did on Win7 with no problems, including Globaltuners feeder, web server, all kinds of ham apps, and..well, the list is long.. (that one was surprising. Literally, I did the free upgrade, restarted and it worked.) I'm trying to understand why your "wider view" would include a 2006 computer with ham applications on it

NUC i3 Win10 Pro

HP Elitedesk 800 G2 Win10 Pro
Surface 3 Win10 Pro Comes with Windows 8.1; in fact the web is full of stories of people who tried to install Windows 7 with issues. Yet your story is that it was delivered with Winows 7?

Surface 4 Pro Win10Pro Comes with Windows 10; why would your "client" order it with Win7 and then pay you to upgrade it to Window 10?
HP Elitepad 900 Win10 Pro<--- comes with Window 8 not Windows 7.

Quantum Access stick, Win10 Pro<--- comes with Win8 not Win7
Azulle LAN stick, Win10 Pro

Intel Compute Stick, Win10 Pro, running Virtual Radar Server, FlightRadar24 feeder, PlanePlotter feeder to FlightAware, PlaneFinder feeder, BUTT audio encoder for Icecast, and Dump1090 from a RTL-SDR stick.
^^All of the above covered in the January, 2013 QST Magazine. Are you absolutely sure you are installing all this for organizations with "20,000+ employees? Because it looks like more ham radio stuff."

All of these systems are capable of running all the business apps expected of a large (20000+ users) organzation So you are claiming that you are installing systems for organizations with 20000+ users who need ham radio apps? I've been doing this since the 1980s and can't recall a single ham radio application I've ever been asked to install by a client.

Pretty sure I've run these devices through the gamut of scenarios that might be encountered in a typical business environment and more.

No issues.

(almost forgot.. The XYL's Asus notebook.. Win 7 to Win10, no issues, and she is the most demanding IT support customer known to me)

Wow... you XYL's Asus Notebook. I stand corrected.

Please don't try to correct me with examples of old devices obviously installed for private users and friends (or yourself). It's just not in the same league.

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73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
K7EXJ
Member

Posts: 875




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2016, 07:36:39 PM »


Well, I guess if you want to line up at the IT urinal, I can tell you that the " downgrade rights from Windows 10 Pro." is pretty moot in many instances. The last two current model, dated last month build, Elitedesk Pro 800 G2 machines I received last week came with Win7 LOADED, and Win10 popped up as an upgrade option.
Frankly, I think the only "IT urinal" you line up to is at your local ham club.
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73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
K5TED
Member

Posts: 229




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2016, 07:38:04 PM »

Is that all you've got? Ok. Case closed.
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K5TED
Member

Posts: 229




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2016, 07:41:33 PM »

As far as the government goes, I wouldn't look to it for IT guidance. They can't even sort out when classified emails are being forwarded to homebrew servers...\

You do realize that "government" doesn't simply refer to the Federal government.... right?

Quote
My Win10 devices to date:

OptiPlex GX745 running Win10 Pro and everything it did on Win7 with no problems, including Globaltuners feeder, web server, all kinds of ham apps, and..well, the list is long.. (that one was surprising. Literally, I did the free upgrade, restarted and it worked.) I'm trying to understand why your "wider view" would include a 2006 computer with ham applications on it

NUC i3 Win10 Pro

HP Elitedesk 800 G2 Win10 Pro
Surface 3 Win10 Pro Comes with Windows 8.1; in fact the web is full of stories of people who tried to install Windows 7 with issues. Yet your story is that it was delivered with Winows 7?

Surface 4 Pro Win10Pro Comes with Windows 10; why would your "client" order it with Win7 and then pay you to upgrade it to Window 10?
HP Elitepad 900 Win10 Pro<--- comes with Window 8 not Windows 7.

Quantum Access stick, Win10 Pro<--- comes with Win8 not Win7
Azulle LAN stick, Win10 Pro

Intel Compute Stick, Win10 Pro, running Virtual Radar Server, FlightRadar24 feeder, PlanePlotter feeder to FlightAware, PlaneFinder feeder, BUTT audio encoder for Icecast, and Dump1090 from a RTL-SDR stick.
^^All of the above covered in the January, 2013 QST Magazine. Are you absolutely sure you are installing all this for organizations with "20,000+ employees? Because it looks like more ham radio stuff."

All of these systems are capable of running all the business apps expected of a large (20000+ users) organzation So you are claiming that you are installing systems for organizations with 20000+ users who need ham radio apps? I've been doing this since the 1980s and can't recall a single ham radio application I've ever been asked to install by a client.

Pretty sure I've run these devices through the gamut of scenarios that might be encountered in a typical business environment and more.

No issues.

(almost forgot.. The XYL's Asus notebook.. Win 7 to Win10, no issues, and she is the most demanding IT support customer known to me)

Wow... you XYL's Asus Notebook. I stand corrected.

Please don't try to correct me with examples of old devices obviously installed for private users and friends (or yourself). It's just not in the same league.



Not in the same league as ham operators grinding their teeth over upgrading to Win10? Agreed. Enterprise operating systems standards are in a somewhat higher league. The XYL reference was for the minor league audience. BTW, the Intel Compute Stick didn't exist in 2013.

Nowhere did I state that the enterprise is using ham apps. The systems described above are CAPABLE of running all the apps. Some of them are enterprise devices currently in use on the enterprise, some not. The list is clearly described as "My Win10 Devices To Date".

What part of that do you not comprehend?

All the contortions and spittle over trying to discredit the reality of Win10 compatibility is childish and just plain unbecoming of a licensed amateur radio operator. Why are you writhing so?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 07:54:59 PM by K5TED » Logged
K7EXJ
Member

Posts: 875




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2016, 08:16:42 PM »

Not in the same league as ham operators grinding their teeth over upgrading to Win10? Agreed. Enterprise operating systems standards are in a somewhat higher league. The XYL reference was for the minor league audience. BTW, the Intel Compute Stick didn't exist in 2013.
Ted... Your the facilities director at a large-ish media outlet. Not the IT Director, not the Engineering Director. I'm sure you work on the computers of your friends and co-workers.

I'm just a semi-retired Network Engineer with 30 years of experience. But I retired from Exxon. And I headed a corporation that did networks for ten years after that.

Impressing me with old computers loaded up with ham applications that you did the free upgrade to Windows 10 on isn't going to work. If you had mentioned domain management, Exchange 2013 migration, DNS servers than I might have bought the pitch. But your IT Director does all that, not you.

So if your entire organization has gone to Windows 10 it will take your IT director telling me to convince me.

But otherwise you're probably an okay guy. Your snarky remarks about the "wider view" from the guy who runs the janitors for a media outlet just pissed me off. Smiley

It is very clear that MS has a problem with Windows 10. They are taking a beating over the "call home" issue.

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73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
K7EXJ
Member

Posts: 875




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2016, 10:23:47 PM »


Anyway, I hate to see people steeping in despair and self loathing over an operating system. It's not a big deal. Either try it or don't. Eventually you will or you'll go by the wayside. Legacy Windows ME adherents excluded. I bow to you.


You're just not a very respectful person, are you?

As I said, the examples you cited to make me think you were capable of understanding what I do were insufficient in the extreme. Loaded with ham apps....

When you are snarky you get it back. Your companies info says that they have both an IT Director and an Engineering Director. You are clearly not either one...

If you were you would understand the issues that MS presents to the enterprise. Choosing anti-virus that won't shut your network down, configuring Exchange to give managers email everywhere they go in a secure manner. It's not just desktops and tablets.

You chose to be snarky... I looked you up because you just didn't have the sound of an IT guy; and I was right.

You just like to start penis measuring contests... you must be a treat to work for.
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73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
K5TED
Member

Posts: 229




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2016, 10:27:12 PM »

Surfing the web for affirmation will get you nowhere, Craig...
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KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 5536




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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2016, 01:09:09 AM »

Craig we must be dealing with companies that think a lot differently about things than the ones w5ted is dealing with!  My company thinks about security as priority one, and any Data going out that cannot be defined and classified 100% safe by us is something that is not even considered as an option.

I was also wondering were he is getting these new machines with Win7 from. We have just been getting Win 10 and then downgrading like you.

73
Rob
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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)
K7MEM
Member

Posts: 688


WWW

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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2016, 04:26:19 AM »


As for companies, perhaps you are not privy to the wider view, but many large company IT departments are adopting Win 10 very matter of factly. Most system orders are delivered with Win7 with option to upgrade to Win 10 and most are opting to upgrade. It works fine. The only issues right now are around compatibility between O365 apps and legacy BI systems. That will be worked out.


I don't know about the wider view, but as far as the delivery of machines goes you have it exactly 180 degrees out of phase.

Machines are delivered with Windows 10 and set to be backwards compatible with installint Windows 7. That's what my clients are asking me to do.

None of them is asking me to install Windows 10.

In the "wider view", large companies with IT departments do not care what is installed on the desktops and laptops that they buy. Their only concern is whether the hardware will support the software. When they get in a load of machines, they immediately wipe them out and put their own software configuration.

It may be that, the users are running systems that are a bit behind the latest releases. But the IT department will be working with the latest releases, making sure it handles all their needs. When they are satisfied, they can push the new installation across the local network.

This is done by notifying the user of their scheduled upgrade. The users is told to leave the computer powered up and connected to the network, on a particular date. When they get in the next day, they have a new OS. Nothing is lost because, the bulk of their data is on networked drives. There are, of course, exceptions and delays based on the users needs. They wouldn't want to interrupt a build or analysis that was in progress.
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Martin - K7MEM
http://www.k7mem.com
K7EXJ
Member

Posts: 875




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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2016, 07:16:19 AM »

Craig we must be dealing with companies that think a lot differently about things than the ones w5ted is dealing with!  My company thinks about security as priority one, and any Data going out that cannot be defined and classified 100% safe by us is something that is not even considered as an option.

I was also wondering were he is getting these new machines with Win7 from. We have just been getting Win 10 and then downgrading like you.

73
Rob

While Ted claimed to be buying new machines with Windows 7 on them and then upgrading to Windows 8, none of his examples offered up as some sort of evidence that hs's a real IT guy represented that. His examples were almost all of older Windows 8 and above machines which he simply upgraded to Windows 10. It doesn't take any IT skills to do that, just press the button on the pop-up and next thing you know you're running Win10. In fact they were examples of the sorts of machines people would give to their nephew Bobby to work on "because Bobby is really good with computers."

But his examples are valuable in the security sense because he clearly made the point that they kept on running the same applications after the upgrade to W10.

Throughout this thread, until Ted skewed it with his claims to being an IT expert and that we don't have his "wider view", has been my contention (supported by links to developers) that Windows 10 is not a radically new operating system but simply yet another build of the NT kernel. And the evidence for this is that applications which ran on old builds of the NT kernel still run on Windows 10.

This has security implications. Because if Windows 10 runs applications from Windows 7 then the APIs must be the same. And malware written to those APIs will run just as well as on Windows 10 as they would on Windows 7.

If Windows 7 apps run on Windows 10 then Windows 7 malware will also run on Windows 10.

MS could have made a more secure operating system. Instead they added code that monitors the OS in real time and sends back telemetry data to MS telling them how it's performing and whether the OS has been exploited.

The downside to this is that if they are simply comparing one hash with another hash stored in a database back in Redmond, then they won't be any more effective at stopping new exploits than any off-the-shelf anti-virus. In other words, they'll only find malware that they already know about.

A better way of doing this would be to examine the operating system itself and determine if it is performing correctly. This would be a more difficult achievement and it would require a lot of data being sent back to MS. And since no one but MS knows just what that data is, we tend to worry.

But that data transfer also brings up other issues for large organizations. Almost every IT system monitors bandwidth. If there is a big spike in incoming or outgoing bandwidth then that gets our attention. I have Nagios watching several systems with a monitor right next to my living room chair (and at my ham station, and my work desk) which tells me things like whether the email servers are still running (a telnet to port 25), whether web servers are still running (an html request), whether network switches are operating (snmp) and the like. It also tells me what the routers are doing. If my bandwidth starts climbing then I start to wonder if one of the Windows computers had become a member of a botnet. And that means a trip to the plant with a network analyzer to find out what's up.

So I think that MS took the quick and dirty cheap route. Rather than doing a complete re-write of the APIs and a totally new kernel, MS did what they've been doing since 1993 and just compiled some new code into the same old NT kernel. And since that really doesn't add any value to the business tool that the computers are supposed to be there for, what's the point of upgrading?

So to scare us into upgrading we get the marketing propaganda that new hardware won't support Windows 7 and annoying pop-ups and bombastic posts from "experts" who tell us that the world will end if we don't all upgrade on MS's schedule. Well that didn't work with ME and it didn't work with Vista and it didn't work with either of the 8's. MS backed down on all of those and eventually came up with an acceptable substitute. With ME that acceptable substitute was XP and with Vista it was Windows 7.

So far they've struck out finding an acceptable substitute for the 8's.

But since MS has announced that Windows 10 is the "last Windows operating system" then maybe they're biting the bullet and developing something that won't allow 3 million machines in a world-wide botnet (which is what we've got now).

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73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
K7EXJ
Member

Posts: 875




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2016, 07:34:35 AM »

I don't know about the wider view, but as far as the delivery of machines goes you have it exactly 180 degrees out of phase.

Machines are delivered with Windows 10 and set to be backwards compatible with installint Windows 7. That's what my clients are asking me to do.

None of them is asking me to install Windows 10.

In the "wider view", large companies with IT departments do not care what is installed on the desktops and laptops that they buy. Their only concern is whether the hardware will support the software. When they get in a load of machines, they immediately wipe them out and put their own software configuration.

It may be that, the users are running systems that are a bit behind the latest releases. But the IT department will be working with the latest releases, making sure it handles all their needs. When they are satisfied, they can push the new installation across the local network.

This is done by notifying the user of their scheduled upgrade. The users is told to leave the computer powered up and connected to the network, on a particular date. When they get in the next day, they have a new OS. Nothing is lost because, the bulk of their data is on networked drives. There are, of course, exceptions and delays based on the users needs. They wouldn't want to interrupt a build or analysis that was in progress.
[/quote]

Yes... you are absolutely right. But that is an example of an organization big enough to have an IT staff. My clients aren't at that scale. What I get is a liaison person who deals with the day-to-day issues of the organization. They configure VOIP phones, move desktops, check for malware, change backup drives, etc.

Any changes to the system like the vpn, routers, managed switches, servers, Exchange, and the like is when they call me in. Or for any outages.

So I deal with smaller organizations... up to a couple of hundred users, often spread out in offices around the county. But there are quite a few of those in any geographical area; and they are even more sensitive to the costs involved in changing from Windows 7.


 
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73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
K5TED
Member

Posts: 229




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2016, 08:20:40 AM »

Craig we must be dealing with companies that think a lot differently about things than the ones w5ted is dealing with!  My company thinks about security as priority one, and any Data going out that cannot be defined and classified 100% safe by us is something that is not even considered as an option.

I was also wondering were he is getting these new machines with Win7 from. We have just been getting Win 10 and then downgrading like you.

73
Rob

While Ted claimed to be buying new machines with Windows 7 on them and then upgrading to Windows 8, none of his examples offered up as some sort of evidence that hs's a real IT guy represented that. His examples were almost all of older Windows 8 and above machines which he simply upgraded to Windows 10. It doesn't take any IT skills to do that, just press the button on the pop-up and next thing you know you're running Win10. In fact they were examples of the sorts of machines people would give to their nephew Bobby to work on "because Bobby is really good with computers."

But his examples are valuable in the security sense because he clearly made the point that they kept on running the same applications after the upgrade to W10.

Throughout this thread, until Ted skewed it with his claims to being an IT expert and that we don't have his "wider view", has been my contention (supported by links to developers) that Windows 10 is not a radically new operating system but simply yet another build of the NT kernel. And the evidence for this is that applications which ran on old builds of the NT kernel still run on Windows 10.

This has security implications. Because if Windows 10 runs applications from Windows 7 then the APIs must be the same. And malware written to those APIs will run just as well as on Windows 10 as they would on Windows 7.

If Windows 7 apps run on Windows 10 then Windows 7 malware will also run on Windows 10.

MS could have made a more secure operating system. Instead they added code that monitors the OS in real time and sends back telemetry data to MS telling them how it's performing and whether the OS has been exploited.

The downside to this is that if they are simply comparing one hash with another hash stored in a database back in Redmond, then they won't be any more effective at stopping new exploits than any off-the-shelf anti-virus. In other words, they'll only find malware that they already know about.

A better way of doing this would be to examine the operating system itself and determine if it is performing correctly. This would be a more difficult achievement and it would require a lot of data being sent back to MS. And since no one but MS knows just what that data is, we tend to worry.

But that data transfer also brings up other issues for large organizations. Almost every IT system monitors bandwidth. If there is a big spike in incoming or outgoing bandwidth then that gets our attention. I have Nagios watching several systems with a monitor right next to my living room chair (and at my ham station, and my work desk) which tells me things like whether the email servers are still running (a telnet to port 25), whether web servers are still running (an html request), whether network switches are operating (snmp) and the like. It also tells me what the routers are doing. If my bandwidth starts climbing then I start to wonder if one of the Windows computers had become a member of a botnet. And that means a trip to the plant with a network analyzer to find out what's up.

So I think that MS took the quick and dirty cheap route. Rather than doing a complete re-write of the APIs and a totally new kernel, MS did what they've been doing since 1993 and just compiled some new code into the same old NT kernel. And since that really doesn't add any value to the business tool that the computers are supposed to be there for, what's the point of upgrading?

So to scare us into upgrading we get the marketing propaganda that new hardware won't support Windows 7 and annoying pop-ups and bombastic posts from "experts" who tell us that the world will end if we don't all upgrade on MS's schedule. Well that didn't work with ME and it didn't work with Vista and it didn't work with either of the 8's. MS backed down on all of those and eventually came up with an acceptable substitute. With ME that acceptable substitute was XP and with Vista it was Windows 7.

So far they've struck out finding an acceptable substitute for the 8's.

But since MS has announced that Windows 10 is the "last Windows operating system" then maybe they're biting the bullet and developing something that won't allow 3 million machines in a world-wide botnet (which is what we've got now).



Blatherskite.

I'm just going to address one of your comments, which will qualify the relevance of anything else you followed up with in the context of my comments.

"Ted claimed to be buying new machines with Windows 7 on them and then upgrading to Windows 8, none of his examples offered up as some sort of evidence that hs's a real IT guy represented that."

1. I did not claim to upgrade to Win 8. This topic is about Win 10

2. Pretty sure without looking back that nowhere did I purport or refer to myself as a "Real IT Guy". You claim to be. We'll see..

3. Use your internet search function pull up some of these current manufacturer part numbers: (Rob, you're welcome in advance. Sorry you guys haven't been able to streamline your deployments. Can't imagine how much valuable employer time you've wasted buying Win 10 PC's only to blow them away and put Win 7 on. Maybe this will help.)


P4K05UT#ABA  (the specific latest model I cited that comes with Win7)

P5V57UT#ABA

J6D92UT#ABA

J6D78UT#ABA

462-8698  

HEG5R50UT

G5R50UT#ABA

462-8698

463-5454

What "downgrade" means:

Windows 7 Professional (available through downgrade rights from Windows 10 Pro):

This system is preinstalled with Windows 7 Professional software and also comes with a license and media for Windows 10 Pro software. You may only use one version of the Windows software at a time. Switching between versions will require you to uninstall one version and install the other version. You must back up all data (files, photos, etc.) before uninstalling and installing operating systems to avoid loss of your data.
 
 
http://h71016.www7.hp.com/html/7_8d.html


« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 08:23:06 AM by K5TED » Logged
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