Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

donate to eham
   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Giving up on Linux  (Read 39473 times)
KD3WB
Member

Posts: 149




Ignore
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2016, 12:08:24 AM »

I avoided Linux for years, mainly because it seemed like the only way to install was to burn the iso to a CD.  All my computers are used, either hand-me-downs, gifts or just bought that way and I'm not sure if any of them even have a CD drive that can do that.  Once it became possible to create a bootable Linux USB stick, it was a whole different story.  I tried Chromixium, now Cub Linux and was extremely impressed at how easily it installed and recognized the hardware.  Interesting that Linux can recognize Windows partitions, but not vice versa.  Even GRUB is impressive.  I have a second USB stick that I was struggling to make bootable and once GRUB was in control, I tried to boot from the stick and GRUB apparently diagnosed the problem and fixed it.  Windows is still my main operating system, but it's nice to have an alternative.  I started out in DOS, so using a terminal in Linux is like second nature.

Ben
Logged
KD8TUT
Member

Posts: 522




Ignore
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2016, 12:29:50 AM »

Linux is a bad platform for non computer hams. If you are using Linux successfully (in any application) your level of computer competency is well ahead of the general public. Which was my point. But you apparently cannot read.

No non-technical person should ever install and/or maintain any OS, be it Linux, Windows, OSX, or even MS-DOS, any more than a non-mechanic should work on a car.

But that doesn't mean that the average person can't learn to use it and run his/her favorite applications on it.  Grandma certainly can use Linux if it's configured in a way that's familiar (read:  Similar to WinXP or 7).  Installation and maintenance should be left to her retired-engineer or IT friend or 12-year-old grandson. Grin

Well this is a valid opinion, thought I personally disagree because we have a difference in perception of what end users need to do with their computers.

Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance.

Computers in general have trended towards that goal since the Apple I. It's driven by the fact that the largest section of the marketplace is not capable (or willing?) to learn the complexities of computing.

Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.

But not grandma. You can set it up for grandma... she can surf the web and get her e-mail or run open office. But beyond that she's probably sol.

Of course it may be true that grandma is a very smart inquisitive person who will actually learn Linux. But she would be exceptional in that regard.

And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

I'm pretty sure grandma also would not be comfortable with configuring nfs in order to avoid samba.

These are simple things which you can accomplish under windows or macos with little worry. And it;s the tip of the iceberg.

Add in hardware compatibility/availablity for what consumers want to do... good luck with that too.

That being said, Linux is a very stable, powerful, and useful operating system- even for desktop use.

But to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Operating systems are tools. So are fanbois Tongue
Logged

Putting a Shatnerologist in a room full of ordinary people is like putting a velociraptor in a room full of wiener dogs.
NA4IT
Member

Posts: 194


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2016, 04:23:34 AM »

The original post stated a problem with running Ham Radio Deluxe on Linux. He's right there. However, there are many great piece of software for ham radio and Linux that DO compare to the Windoze stuff. The only thing I know of you can't do on Linux is WinStink (WINLINK). The Winlink folks just simply won't allow anyone to write a Linux client for it. They refuse to offer any help what so ever.
Logged
W2BLC
Member

Posts: 40




Ignore
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2016, 05:10:52 AM »

Using TurboTax online worries me from a security standpoint. It is already bad enough with E-File, online just adds more exposure. To say nothing of IRS getting hacked also.

Bill W2BLC
Logged
K7EXJ
Member

Posts: 875




Ignore
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2016, 11:42:21 AM »

Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance......
.....to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Post after post telling ham radio operators that they're too stupid to learn Linux... hams are "regular people" who are "non-savvy" when it comes to computers. And to imply otherwise is "religiosity".

So, essentially, you are hopeless if you want to try to learn what is, essentially, the computer version of amateur radio. Because Linux is so completely configurable - but so complicated - that you'd have to be as smart as KD8TUT to do it.

That's what his argument boils down to. "Your not as smart as me so don't even try."

Quote
Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.....

.....And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

And it sounds to me that even KD8TUT has issues. (By the way, XP didn't have "homegroup" either). He has clearly not figured out the installation software that the rest of us Linux users find pretty simple. I mean, how hard is it to type "apt-get install fldigi"? So, if you can't do that, you are not as smart as he is.

Are there technical issues with Linux? Sure. There are technical issues with Windows, too. And Macs. Seems to me that if you can pass an FCC test and figure out antennas and bandwidth and digital modes and all you could at least do as well as KD8TUT.

And if, by some miracle, you are as smart as he is then learning Linux opens up a whole new world of computers including Raspberry Pi micro-computers with complete operating systems for under $70 that can be mated with WSPR accessories from TAPR for $29.

But, if you are a non-savvy sort of person you probably shouldn't even try.




« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 11:52:01 AM by K7EXJ » Logged

73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
W0BTU
Member

Posts: 2268


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2016, 01:15:57 PM »

... Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. ...

Yeah, it sure is. Just look at how unbelievably difficult it is to install this ham radio software in Linux:

http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/linux-mint-and-fldigi.501458/page-3#post-3707712

I'll bet that at least 50% of the people who had to go through that traumatizing experience suffered complete nervous breakdowns! ;-)

Logged

WW7KE
Member

Posts: 949




Ignore
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2016, 03:53:15 PM »

Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance.

Likely impossible, given that computing devices have to be 100% customizable for each user.  Besides, if somebody brings us a foolproof computer, somebody else will bring us a bigger and better fool. Grin

Quote
Computers in general have trended towards that goal since the Apple I. It's driven by the fact that the largest section of the marketplace is not capable (or willing?) to learn the complexities of computing.

There are two problems here.  (1) Most people are not willing to learn anything more than the basics, and (2) the economic ecosystem is set up so that it costs money to fix a broken PC (Geek Squad, etc., as well as a lot of overpaid consultants).  Many many people earn their living from the average person monkeying where they shouldn't be monkeying, as well as legitimate issues like broken hardware, failed upgrades, viruses (almost unheard of outside of Windows), etc.  Breakage is far more possible on a Windows system than on OSX or Linux.

And BTW, anyone who's smart enough to earn a ham ticket can become at least reasonably computer-savvy.  Linux isn't that difficult to learn.  Few need to be "gurus," but there's no reason not to learn the basic commands, GUIs, software, utilities, and the like.  If one can pass the Technician Class exam, one can learn a computer operating system.

Quote
Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.

Bologna.  The GUIs for Debian-based systems (Debian, Mint, & Ubuntu using apt-get) are almost foolproof.  I can't speak for RPM/yum because I haven't used Red Hat/CentOS/Fedora or SuSE in years, but I never had issues when I did use them.  The average person doesn't use Slackware, Arch, and the like, nor do they compile their own software, so those are a moot point in this conversation.

Quote
But not grandma. You can set it up for grandma... she can surf the web and get her e-mail or run open office. But beyond that she's probably sol.

That was kind of my point.  Somebody will have to maintain the PC for Grandma, regardless of the OS she's using.  But those of us in the Ham community should be capable of doing this ourselves.

Quote
Of course it may be true that grandma is a very smart inquisitive person who will actually learn Linux. But she would be exceptional in that regard.

I'm sure there are quite a few who have.  There are probably lots of grandmas who are smart enough to install anti-virus software in Windows, too.

Quote
And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

I'm pretty sure grandma also would not be comfortable with configuring nfs in order to avoid samba.

NFS is a piece of cake.  It's all I've ever used.  Tools exist to mount NFS shares on OSX.  AFAIK, only Win10 Ultimate supports it, and I can't find a 3rd party client yet for 10 Pro.  One article I read on a Microsoft site said that NFS was available in Win7 and Server 2008, but not since.  Oh, well -- I'll have to stick with Mint on my laptop.  Windows isn't up to the job. Wink

Quote
These are simple things which you can accomplish under windows or macos with little worry. And it;s the tip of the iceberg.

I still wouldn't trust Windows with anything requiring security.  Even though I turned off every "phone-home feature" I could find on my Win10 Pro laptop, I still see activity going back to either Microsoft or elsewhere.  I use Mint 17.3 on that machine 99% of the time, mainly for that reason.

Quote
Add in hardware compatibility/availablity for what consumers want to do... good luck with that too.

There are very few devices that Linux doesn't have a kernel module (driver) for anymore.  The BSDs are another story, but I understand they're getting better.  The touchscreen on my laptop doesn't work under Mint, but I don't care about that and never tried to find a driver for it.

Quote
That being said, Linux is a very stable, powerful, and useful operating system- even for desktop use.

"Even" for desktop use?  Again, it all depends on the application software one needs/wants to use.  I've used Linux on my desktops since 1998, back in the bad old days of the 2.0 kernel, dial-up internet, and 800x600 graphics.  I make sure that all software I use is cross-platform, including being available on OS X for my Mac.  But some specialized software isn't, and never will be, such as AutoCAD, QuickBooks, and TurboTax.  For those, you use Windows.  That's the way it goes.

Quote
But to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Windows isn't "tailored for non savvy computer people."  It's tailored to maximize revenue for Microsoft.  Microsoft is a for-profit business that is beholden to its stockholders, traded on a stock exchange.  And that's fine as far as it goes, but user-friendliness, reliability, and security are not Job One.  Profitability is.  

Linux distributions don't help themselves in that the companies that own them are completely clueless when it comes to marketing their products.

Quote
Operating systems are tools. So are fanbois Tongue

Pot, meet kettle, dude.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 04:55:32 PM by WW7KE » Logged

He speaks fluent PSK31, in FT8...  One QSO with him earns you 5BDXCC...  His Wouff Hong has two Wouffs... Hiram Percy Maxim called HIM "The Old Man..."  He is... The Most Interesting Ham In The World!
K5PHW
Member

Posts: 106




Ignore
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2016, 04:01:02 PM »

 I thought MCIBTY died long ago.
Logged
W0BTU
Member

Posts: 2268


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2016, 04:04:40 PM »

I thought MCIBTY died long ago. 

That was before paid M$ shills.  Grin
Logged

WW7KE
Member

Posts: 949




Ignore
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2016, 04:50:37 PM »

I avoided Linux for years, mainly because it seemed like the only way to install was to burn the iso to a CD.

Unetbootin will not only download and burn Linux distros to a USB drive, but will also burn an ISO image you downloaded earlier.  Works on Windows, Mac, and Linux.

http://unetbootin.github.io/

I do keep a portable DVD/CD drive around, though.  I still have a lot of music CDs to rip.  None of my current machines have a DVD drive built in.

Logged

He speaks fluent PSK31, in FT8...  One QSO with him earns you 5BDXCC...  His Wouff Hong has two Wouffs... Hiram Percy Maxim called HIM "The Old Man..."  He is... The Most Interesting Ham In The World!
KD8TUT
Member

Posts: 522




Ignore
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2016, 05:38:20 PM »

Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance......
.....to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Post after post telling ham radio operators that they're too stupid to learn Linux... hams are "regular people" who are "non-savvy" when it comes to computers. And to imply otherwise is "religiosity".

So, essentially, you are hopeless if you want to try to learn what is, essentially, the computer version of amateur radio. Because Linux is so completely configurable - but so complicated - that you'd have to be as smart as KD8TUT to do it.

That's what his argument boils down to. "Your not as smart as me so don't even try."

Quote
Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.....

.....And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

And it sounds to me that even KD8TUT has issues. (By the way, XP didn't have "homegroup" either). He has clearly not figured out the installation software that the rest of us Linux users find pretty simple. I mean, how hard is it to type "apt-get install fldigi"? So, if you can't do that, you are not as smart as he is.

Are there technical issues with Linux? Sure. There are technical issues with Windows, too. And Macs. Seems to me that if you can pass an FCC test and figure out antennas and bandwidth and digital modes and all you could at least do as well as KD8TUT.

And if, by some miracle, you are as smart as he is then learning Linux opens up a whole new world of computers including Raspberry Pi micro-computers with complete operating systems for under $70 that can be mated with WSPR accessories from TAPR for $29.

But, if you are a non-savvy sort of person you probably shouldn't even try.


Your commentary is pretty useless, misses the point, or is just a troll. I get it.

I've actually written and contributed open source code, which you might actually be running.

It's a very enjoyable feeling to know that.

Be well.
Logged

Putting a Shatnerologist in a room full of ordinary people is like putting a velociraptor in a room full of wiener dogs.
KD8TUT
Member

Posts: 522




Ignore
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2016, 05:39:28 PM »

Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance.

Likely impossible, given that computing devices have to be 100% customizable for each user.  Besides, if somebody brings us a foolproof computer, somebody else will bring us a bigger and better fool. Grin

Quote
Computers in general have trended towards that goal since the Apple I. It's driven by the fact that the largest section of the marketplace is not capable (or willing?) to learn the complexities of computing.

There are two problems here.  (1) Most people are not willing to learn anything more than the basics, and (2) the economic ecosystem is set up so that it costs money to fix a broken PC (Geek Squad, etc., as well as a lot of overpaid consultants).  Many many people earn their living from the average person monkeying where they shouldn't be monkeying, as well as legitimate issues like broken hardware, failed upgrades, viruses (almost unheard of outside of Windows), etc.  Breakage is far more possible on a Windows system than on OSX or Linux.

And BTW, anyone who's smart enough to earn a ham ticket can become at least reasonably computer-savvy.  Linux isn't that difficult to learn.  Few need to be "gurus," but there's no reason not to learn the basic commands, GUIs, software, utilities, and the like.  If one can pass the Technician Class exam, one can learn a computer operating system.

Quote
Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.

Bologna.  The GUIs for Debian-based systems (Debian, Mint, & Ubuntu using apt-get) are almost foolproof.  I can't speak for RPM/yum because I haven't used Red Hat/CentOS/Fedora or SuSE in years, but I never had issues when I did use them.  The average person doesn't use Slackware, Arch, and the like, nor do they compile their own software, so those are a moot point in this conversation.

Quote
But not grandma. You can set it up for grandma... she can surf the web and get her e-mail or run open office. But beyond that she's probably sol.

That was kind of my point.  Somebody will have to maintain the PC for Grandma, regardless of the OS she's using.  But those of us in the Ham community should be capable of doing this ourselves.

Quote
Of course it may be true that grandma is a very smart inquisitive person who will actually learn Linux. But she would be exceptional in that regard.

I'm sure there are quite a few who have.  There are probably lots of grandmas who are smart enough to install anti-virus software in Windows, too.

Quote
And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

I'm pretty sure grandma also would not be comfortable with configuring nfs in order to avoid samba.

NFS is a piece of cake.  It's all I've ever used.  Tools exist to mount NFS shares on OSX.  AFAIK, only Win10 Ultimate supports it, and I can't find a 3rd party client yet for 10 Pro.  One article I read on a Microsoft site said that NFS was available in Win7 and Server 2008, but not since.  Oh, well -- I'll have to stick with Mint on my laptop.  Windows isn't up to the job. Wink

Quote
These are simple things which you can accomplish under windows or macos with little worry. And it;s the tip of the iceberg.

I still wouldn't trust Windows with anything requiring security.  Even though I turned off every "phone-home feature" I could find on my Win10 Pro laptop, I still see activity going back to either Microsoft or elsewhere.  I use Mint 17.3 on that machine 99% of the time, mainly for that reason.

Quote
Add in hardware compatibility/availablity for what consumers want to do... good luck with that too.

There are very few devices that Linux doesn't have a kernel module (driver) for anymore.  The BSDs are another story, but I understand they're getting better.  The touchscreen on my laptop doesn't work under Mint, but I don't care about that and never tried to find a driver for it.

Quote
That being said, Linux is a very stable, powerful, and useful operating system- even for desktop use.

"Even" for desktop use?  Again, it all depends on the application software one needs/wants to use.  I've used Linux on my desktops since 1998, back in the bad old days of the 2.0 kernel, dial-up internet, and 800x600 graphics.  I make sure that all software I use is cross-platform, including being available on OS X for my Mac.  But some specialized software isn't, and never will be, such as AutoCAD, QuickBooks, and TurboTax.  For those, you use Windows.  That's the way it goes.

Quote
But to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Windows isn't "tailored for non savvy computer people."  It's tailored to maximize revenue for Microsoft.  Microsoft is a for-profit business that is beholden to its stockholders, traded on a stock exchange.  And that's fine as far as it goes, but user-friendliness, reliability, and security are not Job One.  Profitability is.  

Linux distributions don't help themselves in that the companies that own them are completely clueless when it comes to marketing their products.

Quote
Operating systems are tools. So are fanbois Tongue

Pot, meet kettle, dude.

Sheer argument for argument's sake. Whatever.
Logged

Putting a Shatnerologist in a room full of ordinary people is like putting a velociraptor in a room full of wiener dogs.
KD8TUT
Member

Posts: 522




Ignore
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2016, 05:42:17 PM »

... Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. ...

Yeah, it sure is. Just look at how unbelievably difficult it is to install this ham radio software in Linux:

http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/linux-mint-and-fldigi.501458/page-3#post-3707712

I'll bet that at least 50% of the people who had to go through that traumatizing experience suffered complete nervous breakdowns! ;-)



Or you could have interpreted my posts correctly in that people who were able to use Linux effectively were exceptional compared to the general public. This group includes hams that are computer savvy.

But no... you'd rather take stuff out of context and try to make a cheap shot stick.

Zero respect for that.
Logged

Putting a Shatnerologist in a room full of ordinary people is like putting a velociraptor in a room full of wiener dogs.
WW7KE
Member

Posts: 949




Ignore
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2016, 05:55:15 PM »

Sheer argument for argument's sake. Whatever.

Lighten up, Francis!

I mean, WTF?  Is W8JX on vacation and you're taking his place as eHam's resident Microsoft apologist for a couple of weeks?

Oh, and BTW, where am I wrong?  I'm not looking for an argument.  Anything you think I erred on, please let me know.
Logged

He speaks fluent PSK31, in FT8...  One QSO with him earns you 5BDXCC...  His Wouff Hong has two Wouffs... Hiram Percy Maxim called HIM "The Old Man..."  He is... The Most Interesting Ham In The World!
KD8TUT
Member

Posts: 522




Ignore
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2016, 06:07:08 PM »

Sheer argument for argument's sake. Whatever.

Lighten up, Francis!

I mean, WTF?  Is W8JX on vacation and you're taking his place as eHam's resident Microsoft apologist for a couple of weeks?

Oh, and BTW, where am I wrong?  I'm not looking for an argument.  Anything you think I erred on, please let me know.

I hate Microsoft. Almost everything serious I run is Linux... Christ!!

Where did you get the idea I liked Microsoft?

That's not the point. The point is that taking a ham and giving him Linux is a bad idea if that ham is not computer savvy.

That's it. Linux demands a higher level of competency.
Logged

Putting a Shatnerologist in a room full of ordinary people is like putting a velociraptor in a room full of wiener dogs.
Pages: Prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!