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Author Topic: Giving up on Linux  (Read 39061 times)
KD3WB
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Posts: 148




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« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2016, 04:34:06 PM »

I still wonder how many potential Linux users were discouraged by the CD burning issue.

Why would downloading an ISO and burning it to CDs (later, DVDs) discourage anyone? I've mostly done it that way for years, and so have countless others.

My point is that installing Linux was difficult before USB.  Windows 95 and 98 had a "setup.exe" executable and later versions used "winnt32.exe".  I've never even once booted any of my computers from a CD drive. 

Ben
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K5TED
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Posts: 228




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« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2016, 05:54:21 PM »

I still wonder how many potential Linux users were discouraged by the CD burning issue.

Why would downloading an ISO and burning it to CDs (later, DVDs) discourage anyone? I've mostly done it that way for years, and so have countless others.

My point is that installing Linux was difficult before USB.  Windows 95 and 98 had a "setup.exe" executable and later versions used "winnt32.exe".  I've never even once booted any of my computers from a CD drive. 

Ben

Booting from Linux hasn't been difficult from some time. I've used 'Puppy' Linux from a CD a number of times to have an environment with pre-loaded and configured ham apps. From a CD.

Knoppix Linux is an OLD method of booting to a Linux environment to fix things. All from CD.

I just last week built a couple of Ubuntu machines using a bootable installer from a USB stick, but it could have been as well from a DVD.

Is it my preference for everyday use? No. Is it easy to install? Yes.

If you ever inserted a Windows build CD in your drive and installed the OS, then you have 'booted' from a CD or DVD.
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K7EXJ
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Posts: 875




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« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2016, 10:00:21 PM »

My point is that installing Linux was difficult before USB.  Windows 95 and 98 had a "setup.exe" executable and later versions used "winnt32.exe".  I've never even once booted any of my computers from a CD drive. 

I bought complete SuSE installation sets before the 'net was fast enough to do a download. They came with 7 or 8 floppy disks and, later, CDs. Exactly like Windows installation disks. Put 'em into an appropriate drive, tell the BIOS to boot from that drive, and off you go. They would install typical workstations, servers, or barebones systems. And they would detect Windows and re-size your hard drive's partitions so you could dual boot.

Local computer shops gave away CDs with various installs of Linux.

Ubuntu would send you CDs and DVDs for the price of the disks

USB installs are relatively new.

If you had even once installed Windows prior to about 2010 you would have booted your computer off of a drive; floppy, CD or DVD. Often just to update the OS. Computers from Dell, Compaq and HP would come with installation disks.

Just like Linux. Except that, often, Linux was faster and more intuitive.

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73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
KC7KLZ
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Posts: 5




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« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2016, 01:49:17 PM »

Windows, Linux, OSX.... It is an interesting dilemma.  I think you need to look at what you want, need, and what headaches are you willing to put up with.  I was a Windows person for years.  About 5 years ago I found myself in a situation where I had a computer without an OS.  (Long story.)  At that time, I did not have the Do-Ray-MI to purchase a copy of Windows.  A friend of mine had been pestering me for some time to get a Linux box going.  I downloaded a copy of Ubuntu, and installed it.  During the process, I found that Google was my friend, and that with a little time an effort, I was able to get it going and do what I needed the computer to do. 

Last year, I ponied up the Do-Ray-MI and purchased a sweet laptop.  I have Windows 10 on it.  I thought about putting HRD on it, but I can't justify it to myself, spending the Do-Ray-MI on it. 

My point is if you want to work at it, you can get anything you want working.  I've had just as many headaches on my Windows 10 machine as I have on my Linux box.  I comes down to what headaches do you want to deal with.

'73

Eric Scott
VE7KLZ\ KC7KLZ   
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KD3WB
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Posts: 148




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« Reply #79 on: March 07, 2016, 02:32:32 PM »

My point is that installing Linux was difficult before USB.  Windows 95 and 98 had a "setup.exe" executable and later versions used "winnt32.exe".  I've never even once booted any of my computers from a CD drive. 

I bought complete SuSE installation sets before the 'net was fast enough to do a download. They came with 7 or 8 floppy disks and, later, CDs. Exactly like Windows installation disks. Put 'em into an appropriate drive, tell the BIOS to boot from that drive, and off you go. They would install typical workstations, servers, or barebones systems. And they would detect Windows and re-size your hard drive's partitions so you could dual boot.

I've never bought an operating system and I don't own a Windows installation disk.

Quote

Local computer shops gave away CDs with various installs of Linux.

I've never been to a computer shop, other than having a friend who ran one.

Quote

Ubuntu would send you CDs and DVDs for the price of the disks

Sounds gracious.  Wonder why someone didn't just write a small Windows executable that would download and install the OS.

Quote
USB installs are relatively new.

The ultimate irony is that Microsoft actually helped me with this.  I found out about the Windows 10 preview, and one way to do it was to put it on a USB stick and boot from it.  I eventually realized that my computer is too old for it, but I also realized that I could do the same with Linux.  The only reason I picked Chromixium is that I was already using Google's Chrome browser.

Quote
If you had even once installed Windows prior to about 2010 you would have booted your computer off of a drive; floppy, CD or DVD. Often just to update the OS. Computers from Dell, Compaq and HP would come with installation disks.

Never a CD or DVD, but plenty of floppies, including 5 1/4 inch ones.  And I've installed Windows plenty of times.  My point is that there was always a "setup.exe" or "winnt32.exe" to run, and I didn't have to download an iso file and burn it to a CD.

Quote
Just like Linux. Except that, often, Linux was faster and more intuitive.

The Chromixium install was easier and faster than most, if not all, of my Windows installs.   

Ben
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KOP
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Posts: 342




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« Reply #80 on: March 07, 2016, 04:28:57 PM »

First I have to admit a bias .

OS: Linux 3.13.0-58-generic/i686 - Distro: Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS - CPU: 4 x Intel Xeon (3000.000 MHz) - Processes: 217 - Uptime: 6d 22h 24m - Users: 2 - Load Average: 2.57 - Memory Usage: 2425.04MB/16191.26MB (14.98%) - Disk Usage: 400.57GB/1838.80GB (21.78%)

I am not your average anything let alone average computer user .
I operate a small cluster , several "workstations" not to be confused with "desktops". I have several machines loaded with up to 32g of memory and 8 cores @ 3000mhz plus .

I also use several Panasonic Toughbooks
Hostname: kop-CF-30CQQACBM - OS: Linux 3.11.0-12-generic/i686 - Distro: Linux Mint 16 Petra - CPU: 2 x Intel Core Duo (1600.000 MHz) - Processes: 167 - Uptime: 16h 35m - Users: 3 - Load Average: 0.45 - Memory Usage: 670.86MB/992.74MB (67.58%) - Disk Usage: 4.09GB/72.73GB (5.62%)

The Toughbooks often have a choice of up to 8 virtual machines and in some cases multiple boot options .

Even I can't get completely away from M$ . I have had to use dual boot and virtual machines to use the few proprietary M$ tools I can't emulate with Wine or make work in *nix . If I had my way I'd never see let alone use another M$ product for the rest of my days . My bias has nothing to do with the obvious reasons the general public has for avoidance of M$ products such as cost of license and OS or the apparent monopoly . It has to do with invasive technologies included with the OS that ignore personal privacy based on a misplaced "it's for the users own good" .

I had a difficult time moving to *nix as it was done all at once and with minimal command line experience . Over the last 17 years I've gradually learned to live with my decision . I won't debate what is best for the OP , the previous post or anyone that cares to read this . I'll just say get your head out of the sand and actually examine what your operating system is sending home to mother . Just quit being sheeple and get a clue .

~kop  
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 09:52:17 AM by KOP » Logged

I considered a microwave oven magnetron and a 4' dish as a drone-killer. The ERP would be on the order of a hundred thousand watts or so. ~anon

November 28, 2018, 09:16:04 AM
K7EXJ
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Posts: 875




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« Reply #81 on: March 08, 2016, 09:11:07 AM »

I had a difficult time moving to *nix as it was done all at once and with minimal command line experience . Over the last 17 years I've gradually learned to live with my decision . I won't debate what is best for the OP , the previous post or anyone that cares to read this . I'll just say get your head out of the sand and actually examine what your operating is sending home to mother . Just quit being sheeple and get a clue .

~kop  

Unix was my first operating system and I was pretty much "thrown to the wolves" when I started working at Exxon as a Radio Officer. Exxon's ships at the time (late 1970s) used a Unix system with terminals for the RO, the Captain, Ch. Mate, Ch. Engr, and engine room. The officer in charge of the system was the Radio Officer. All done from the command line with the root password the same for all ships. No Internet and a huge set of manuals.

But after using an operating system that could have mulitple people logged on doing multiple things at the same time I was introduced to MSDOS by one of the crew who brought aboard a Compaq "luggable". I wasn't all that impressed. However since Unix at home costs in the thousands of dollars for just the license to the OS, I bought a PC and used MSDOS. And while MSDOS worked pretty well, I was used to multiuser/multiprocessing operating systems and was very disappointed in DOS because, if you needed something from one app to use in the app you had on line, you had to save the one on line, quite it, start the other app, get the data you needed, make a note, quit THAT app, and restart the first app and get to where you had been to put it in. That was a real PITA.

Then I discovered Desqview!

Aboard a ship I could have an old Zenith Z100 laptop with Desqview operating with MSDOS and could run a weather fax application, an app for notes, and a spreadsheet (Lotus 123) all at the same time. And copy data from one app to another.

Even so, nothing, however, beat Unix. I tried Minix and bught a copy of Coherant and even found a cheap set of disks for Xenix (sold, ironically enough, by Microsoft) at a used computer place in Bellevue. I installed Xenix at a local business with ten terminals for their sales staff loaded with a database application. They used that system until they went out of business 15 years later.

But when Linux Torvalds released Linux I knew, once I tried it, that it would be the choice for me. The first "distro" I tried was Yggdrasil followed by Slackware and then SuSE. By the time they had released v1.13 I was already installing Linux as email servers, web servers and routers at schools and businesses in the area and being admin at an early ISP (1995).

So no one HAS to have "computer savvy" to start with Linux. It's like everything else in ham radio. Most of the time you learn it yourself.

Between Linux and CW I have made a lot of money. Most Linux professionals are self-taught because few Universities teach it to any depth (with some notable exceptions). But if you are competent with Linux - and especially Centos/RHEL, you can pull down salaries in the six figures.

Without a college degree.
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73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
AC7CW
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Posts: 1332




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« Reply #82 on: March 08, 2016, 12:46:23 PM »

I remember when I first heard of Linux. Engineers were working on it. They had access to very expensive CAD software packages that ran on UNIX at their workplace. They wanted a system to run said software at home and that motivated them.

I'm not infected with OS religion that much, I've worked with UNIX until my fingers knew what to type but I couldn't explain to anybody else without typing! [true story]. I had a Radio Shack Model 4 that ran on what, I can't recall, it did have a fantastic version of Basic. That Basic was so good that I dug through the source code for a clue as to who wrote it and found "Microsoft". I recall thinking "what a clever name for some software developers" but didn't think to buy the stock when they went public. I had some kind of an experimenters computer that programmed in a sort of an assembly language, can't recall the name of it though. I had to use DOS when pc's became the workplace standard in engineering labs, then Win 3.1 and so on and actually, the last OS I was introduced to was Linux.

For something of limited focus and high security [as in financial] i'd go with Linux but my programming environment doesn't natively run on it. They have promised for two years and put it off another year again... This software was useless due to problems with fonts when running on WINE. Thus is the neverending disappointment of the world of Linux where much is promised and not enough of use is delivered, not to mention the tedious work of typing so much stuff and all the while trying to get help from the zillion introvert experts on the forums that have no intention of helping anybody while displaying great pretense to do so...

For web surfing and document production, I'm leaning towards a touchscreen Win10 machine. I have a Win7 laptop for that currently, and a wonderful 10" Samsung tablet too. I've got the love/hate thing going with touchscreens via tablet and iPhone but a touchscreen-keyboard combo might make me happy, real happy actually.

I like Apple for a phone. I was an Android user for a few years, it's good, maybe, not great by a long shot. Anybody with $25 can sell software and nobody checks how it works or how it interacts with other software. Some of it works until you really need it of course...

Apple doesn't have a touchscreen computer so far, right? They seem to be developing an automobile, maybe they see their computer business dwindling...

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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
W0BTU
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« Reply #83 on: March 08, 2016, 12:55:43 PM »

... when I started working at Exxon as a Radio Officer. ...

Thanks for sharing this experience! It brought back many good memories. I loved Desqview.

I knew an Exxon radio officer (Vern?) who worked on the Exxon Valdez and the Exxon Mediterranean oil tankers in the '90s. He was a ham, but I forget his call.
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K7EXJ
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Posts: 875




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« Reply #84 on: March 08, 2016, 01:23:57 PM »

... when I started working at Exxon as a Radio Officer. ...

Thanks for sharing this experience! It brought back many good memories. I loved Desqview.

I knew an Exxon radio officer (Vern?) who worked on the Exxon Valdez and the Exxon Mediterranean oil tankers in the '90s. He was a ham, but I forget his call.

I was never on the Exxon Valdez... but after the infamous Bligh Reef incident they renamed it to the Exxon Mediterranean. Tongue

I was working for Chevron when we lightered off the Valdez on one of its last trips to Alaska.

My favorite ship for Exxon was the Exxon Lexington. A beautifu, very fast, tanker on the Valdez, AK to Houston, TX run via the Panama Canal. Built in 1955 the Lex was originally crewed by 55 people. When I was on her it was crewed by only 22. This is one of the (many) reasons for the Valdez incident on Bligh Reef.

I was also a mate and CH. Mate for some foreign flag drill ships back in the 80s. And an ASK/DP watchstander.

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73s de K7EXJ
Craig Smiley
W0BTU
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« Reply #85 on: March 08, 2016, 01:36:47 PM »

 after the infamous Bligh Reef incident they renamed it to the Exxon Mediterranean. Tongue

I thought that was something that Exxon didn't want anyone to know. ;-)

I was told the story of what actually happened, and it was NOT what the mainstream media reported. Joe (the captain) was NOT drinking until AFTER a defective Sperry Rand autopilot (is that the right term?) caused the oil spill.

It's a long story. But I need to get back to work now.

(DISCLAIMER: I was not a witness to any of these events as described here. What I said above may not be accurate.)
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AF7EC
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« Reply #86 on: March 08, 2016, 07:37:14 PM »

I will lend my voice to this thread.  I will try to not get overzealous.

Windows is great for a lot of perfectly understandable reasons.  People who don't like to tinker with their computers, people who want stuff to 'just work', people who use what their employers put in front of them...they all use Windows.

Use what you like, but don't bash anyone over the head trying to make them convert...no one likes to be told what to do and why they're wrong because they use Windows, or Linux, or Mac, or Irix or Solaris and so-on.

I personally enjoy Linux and wish I could convert all of my customers over to it, but the reality is, there are just some apps that aren't well-represented on the Linux side, despite the good efforts of dedicated Linux developers.  Yes, there are hundreds and thousands of Linux apps for some tasks, but trying each one out can be frustrating.  I can download a promising-looking app from the Debian repos, only for it to crash, not appear on the screen or otherwise be defective.  YMMV.

Linux is interesting to me because I can bolt what *I* want onto it and not what some company wants.  I have full freedom to download an existing app's source-code and change it to meet my needs (which I've done on a few occasions).  I don't have to pay a monthly subscription for support, nor do I have to pay license fees.  The sword can cut both ways, however.  There are some key apps I use on Linux that have some pretty nasty bugs.  I'm a decent programmer, but often I just don't have the time or energy to dive into someone else's code to fix the bug.  This is where paid support would come in handy.  Of course, there are companies that provide support, but it's mostly them taking your money and giving little help in return.  Such is life these days.

Operating systems can be as personal as a person's taste in wine, food, furniture or cars.  Some people are forced to use Windows at work and find Macs at home relaxing, or vice-versa.  To me, Linux and FreeBSD are relaxing when I have to support dozens of my Windows-using customers each day.  A customer will ask for my help in doing something on Windows, and when I help them, I sometimes shake my head and go "Why in the world did Microsoft do this like that?".  Then again, with the systemd encroachment on today's Linux systems, I often find myself shaking my head at that, too.

Use what you want, if you're given the choice.  Try not to judge or jeer others for using something that you personally don't care for.  If you're like me, you'll appreciate the amount of customization and configuration you can do with Linux.  I run my business on it.  Debian for my workstation, Raspian for my local file server, FreeBSD for my alternate desktop and an Ubuntu server instance with a cloud provider for web, e-mail, calendaring, etc.  It all works the way I want, without license fees, mostly without problems.  If there *are* problems, they are usually fixed fairly quickly, or I go and write my own software.

Windows rocks!
Linux rocks!
FreeBSD rocks!
Mac (erm) is Mac! :-P
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An imperfect being created by a perfect God Cheesy
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