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Author Topic: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain  (Read 40241 times)
N2SR
Member

Posts: 1207




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« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2016, 02:24:17 AM »

Oh come on, these days there are other technical ways to keep an amp from operating on 11m than limiting the gain.

Remember how some amps can't operate on 10m without showing your license in order to purchase the mod parts? Or how more modern amps will work on 10 without modification by using a counter to determine the frequency of operation?

I can't see what useful purpose the gain limitation rule fulfills, other than a 10db attenuator makes the input match look perfect.  Wink

73
Jim K6JH

Why should a licensed ham operator need to PAY MONEY for a kit or whatever is necessary to make his/her amplifier legally operate on amateur radio frequencies that he/she is authorized to operate?

I have no issue with sending a copy of your license at the time of purchase.   But when you charge money - on top of the price of the amplifier - that is a money grab.   I'm looking at you Ameritron.

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If no one is doing it that way, there is a probably a very good reason.
KS4TL
Member

Posts: 11




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« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2016, 04:13:36 AM »

Would like to see the FCC eliminate the 15dB limit, but also impose limits on odd-order IMD at rated power output for all amps.

Some owners of the nicer QRP rigs (KX3, Elad, etc.) would like to be able to use their little QRP rig barefoot when portable, but boost them up to several hundred watts when in the shack, eliminating the need for a separate 100 watt rig. A niche market, but a perfectly valid one, and one that should not be penalized because of the few surviving CBers.

Jeff N3JS (ex-KS4TL)
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N3QE
Member

Posts: 5585




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« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2016, 04:32:55 AM »

Related question: Do any of the MOSFET PA's use grounded gate configuration?

Of course, grounded gate JFETs are de rigueur for low IMD receive preamps.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 04:35:44 AM by N3QE » Logged
W1BR
Member

Posts: 4188




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« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2016, 06:33:23 AM »

Hams should be responsible for emissions, not the manufacturer. Any amp can be over driven, improperly loaded, etc.  Requiring certification exists because too few hams know or care about having a clean signal (I get good audio reports, etc.)  And the fact that the CB crowd abused the system for decades, and the hams paid the price.  Strange to see hundreds and hundreds of illegal CB amps still being sold, along with illegal FM and AM broadcast transmitters on sites like eBay, etc.  And the FCC turns a blind eye. Sad thing is the FCC is underfunded, many hams don't care, or don't have the technical expertise needed to solder a PL-259.

Pete
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W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2016, 06:57:07 AM »

Hams should be responsible for emissions, not the manufacturer. Any amp can be over driven, improperly loaded, etc.  Requiring certification exists because too few hams know or care about having a clean signal (I get good audio reports, etc.)  And the fact that the CB crowd abused the system for decades, and the hams paid the price.  Strange to see hundreds and hundreds of illegal CB amps still being sold, along with illegal FM and AM broadcast transmitters on sites like eBay, etc.  And the FCC turns a blind eye. Sad thing is the FCC is underfunded, many hams don't care, or don't have the technical expertise needed to solder a PL-259.

Pete

You have got to be kidding about Ham's being capable of keeping emmisions in check. Many of today's no code CB Extra class do not even know how to tune a amp and depend on plug and play rigs, amps and tuners to get on air. This places even greater responsibility on amp builders to try to keep emissions in check.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
ND6M
Member

Posts: 822




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« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2016, 07:26:07 AM »

Bottom Line:  The ONLY reason this idea has been invented is to make money for amp dealers.
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W8MQW
Member

Posts: 7




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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2016, 07:44:45 AM »

Below is a prototype letter to send to your Congressional representatives:

Please ask the FCC to rule favorably on RM-11767, a change to 97.317(a)(2).  The present rule is a barrier to the diffusion of modern technology into the amateur radio service. In brief, because of a decades-old fear of the misuse of high-power amateur radio amplifiers by outlaw citizen's band users, the FCC restricted the gain of amateur amplifiers to 15 dB. This fear is obviated by modern computer lockout.

Meanwhile, radio technology has suddenly moved into the digital realm such that far better (inexpensive) transceivers are now available with far superior spectral purity. The wide acceptance of this  new software-defined radio (SDR) technology is being blocked by rule 97.317(a)(2).

Moreover, the SDR revolution has enabled American manufacturers to regain dominance in amateur radio manufacture with concomitant spillover into commercial and military contracts. This technology should be promoted.

Please light a fire under the FCC. Thank you for your service to our State.
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W5WSS
Member

Posts: 2283




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« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2016, 11:01:24 AM »

Good thing when one needs to buy an FCC approved amplifier capable of 6-7KW that they are available here, you know loaf along at 1499 watts PEP....One wouldn't think of giving in to the temptation to turn it up to compete with the other guy that turned his up beyond legal limit...wink wink. Wink Hey ole man your 59+841. Shocked

73
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 11:03:37 AM by W5WSS » Logged
N3QE
Member

Posts: 5585




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« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2016, 11:15:24 AM »

Good thing when one needs to buy an FCC approved amplifier capable of 6-7KW that they are available here, you know loaf along at 1499 watts PEP....One wouldn't think of giving in to the temptation to turn it up to compete with the other guy that turned his up beyond legal limit...wink wink. Wink Hey ole man your 59+841. Shocked

Every time I look at my 3CX3000A7 I think how nice it'd be to have an exciter that could put out 450W.
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KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 5557




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« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2016, 11:50:04 AM »

Since this is only going to effect Gain and Not change the 1500 watt legal limit I suspect that the changes are to benefit radio manufactures with being able to make more 5 and 10 watt rigs and therefore reduce costs. As we have seen with the Icom 7300, no one wants the versions that output less than 100.watts.

Who Benefits:

The Radio manufactures will be more comfortably able to produce and market low powered rigs if amplifiers are available to bring them up to legal limit.  The amplifier companies also benefit of course.  It will become very frustrating very fast using 5 watts, so no doubt companies like Expert are hoping to cash in on making cheap simple 200-500 watt amplifiers as well as legal limit ones that play well with these cheaper low powered radios.

The Downside:
100 Watt rigs may become a premium item since SDR technology will cut a lot of costs and now being able to have 5-10 watts become more accepted as a standard they can cut costs even more.
Personally I find anything sub 100 watts to be less than ideal, especially when I might need to throw it in my car for emergency purposes.

Second issue is that since these are most likely solid state amps they will be building, one has to wonder about the IMD products.

Overall I am not in favor of such a move, it will no doubt flood the market with really cheap radios that are not very useful unless you love the frustration of being QRP all the time and secondly it's just a maneuver to boost amplifier sales by Expert SPE

73
Rob
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 12:25:30 PM by KD8MJR » Logged

“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)
KK4YDR
Member

Posts: 673




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« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2016, 01:00:51 PM »

Since this is only going to effect Gain and Not change the 1500 watt legal limit I suspect that the changes are to benefit radio manufactures with being able to make more 5 and 10 watt rigs and therefore reduce costs. As we have seen with the Icom 7300, no one wants the versions that output less than 100.watts.

Who Benefits:

The Radio manufactures will be more comfortably able to produce and market low powered rigs if amplifiers are available to bring them up to legal limit.  The amplifier companies also benefit of course.  It will become very frustrating very fast using 5 watts, so no doubt companies like Expert are hoping to cash in on making cheap simple 200-500 watt amplifiers as well as legal limit ones that play well with these cheaper low powered radios.

The Downside:
100 Watt rigs may become a premium item since SDR technology will cut a lot of costs and now being able to have 5-10 watts become more accepted as a standard they can cut costs even more.
Personally I find anything sub 100 watts to be less than ideal, especially when I might need to throw it in my car for emergency purposes.

Second issue is that since these are most likely solid state amps they will be building, one has to wonder about the IMD products.

Overall I am not in favor of such a move, it will no doubt flood the market with really cheap radios that are not very useful unless you love the frustration of being QRP all the time and secondly it's just a maneuver to boost amplifier sales by Expert SPE

73
Rob

Well now I would love to be able to hook my FT-817 into a nice big fat tube amp and get legal limit out of it. Or spend $600 on a 5 watt 7300 "like" rig and get legal limit out of the other end via a high gain amplifier. In the end it will enable more hams to enter the realm of HF adding to the activity and interesting people to talk to. I hear the same voices over and over as I frequent portions of the bands. New faces, new talents, new ideas, new discussions are always welcome. I am very sure if there was a high gain legit amplifier market you would see much larger sums of lower power rigs for sale. I would love to run my Flex 6300 at 5-10 watts out. It saves on wear and tear overall of my FlexRadio and puts the abuse in the tubes where they belong. But for now if nothing changes I am still satisfied with how things are.

I would like to see the 1500 watt cap lifted and elevate it to 3000 watts but then we encounter issues like power deliver to such a power hog. Already my 240v line feeding my legal limit amplifier, adding in ineffeciencies is puling close to 2.5 KW from the pole to make 1500 watts out. A 3kw amplifier would exacerbate that problem further more either maxing out a 240 line current limit or requiring installation of a 400+ volt 3 phase line into the shack to power a 75lb transformer. I think 1500 watts is perfect as it stands and the direction of going to very high gain amplification is a great move ultimately.

Lastly, besides home brew stuff, even if the laws were changed to allow high gain amplification, it will be a decade or more before truly high gain amplifiers are commercially available. The amateur radio market moves almost impossibly slow with innovation due to the archaic and well "should have been expire" dinosaur laws.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 01:03:47 PM by KK4YDR » Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




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« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2016, 01:03:15 PM »

Bottom Line:  The ONLY reason this idea has been invented is to make money for amp dealers.

The root of all evil, PROFIT. Anything to make a extra buck. Gun industry has made a fortune off of gun crazy and there are only a few major players that own most of major brand guns and ammo production. What to make more money, pass or change a law restricting sales/profit on item in question...
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2016, 01:04:33 PM »

I would like to see the 1500 watt cap lifted and elevate it to 3000 watts

Why current cap has not stopped anyone from running more power if they want too....
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--------------------------------------
Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
KK4YDR
Member

Posts: 673




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2016, 01:06:40 PM »

Bottom Line:  The ONLY reason this idea has been invented is to make money for amp dealers.

The root of all evil, PROFIT. Anything to make a extra buck. Gun industry has made a fortune off of gun crazy and there are only a few major players that own most of major brand guns and ammo production. What to make more money, pass or change a law restricting sales/profit on item in question...

Agree and disagree - Profit is not the root of evil and profit provides jobs whether you like or not. Sure adding some new lines to say... Ameritron to add in some very high gain high power amplifiers might ask for high prices but they are probably going to hire 25 more people to build these devices. Some of them having 3 kids to feed, adding to the economy, etc... I hate the anti-profit making mentality of the left, not that you are, it is just there is so many companies who make profit but do so in a intelligent, responsible, and moral way with benefit to families and economies overall. Your blanket statement is well noted but none-the-less confounded generally speaking.

I would like to see the 1500 watt cap lifted and elevate it to 3000 watts

Why current cap has not stopped anyone from running more power if they want too....

Because some of us enjoy moral obligation, have moral fortitude, and believe in living by moral code. Those that don't probably lack necessary respect for those that do. Golden rule stuff man! Just like speed limits don't stop people from speeding, drinking prohibitions don't stop people from consuming, drug laws don't stop overdoses, and guns are responsible for killing, not the killer. It's call personal integrity, something that almost everyone absolutely lacks in some form or fashion and very few live by. When rule by law is overseen by the immoral government, those subject to immoral government become immoral themselves. The fix is fixing our government before we can fix the immoral people.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 01:11:09 PM by KK4YDR » Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2016, 01:13:30 PM »

Bottom Line:  The ONLY reason this idea has been invented is to make money for amp dealers.

The root of all evil, PROFIT. Anything to make a extra buck. Gun industry has made a fortune off of gun crazy and there are only a few major players that own most of major brand guns and ammo production. What to make more money, pass or change a law restricting sales/profit on item in question...

Agree and disagree - Profit is not the root of evil and profit provides jobs whether you like or not. Sure adding some new lines to say... Ameritron to add in some very high gain high power amplifiers might ask for high prices but they are probably going to hire 25 more people to build these devices. Some of them having 3 kids to feed, adding to the economy, etc... I hate the anti-profit making mentality of the left, not that you are, it is just there is so many companies who make profit but do so in a intelligent, responsible, and moral way with benefit to families and economies overall. Your blanket statement is well noted but none-the-less confounded generally speaking.

I would like to see the 1500 watt cap lifted and elevate it to 3000 watts

Why current cap has not stopped anyone from running more power if they want too....

Because some of us enjoy moral obligation, have moral fortitude, and believe in living by moral code. Those that don't probably lack necessary respect for those that do. Golden rule stuff man!

More often than not profit can also kill jobs as big companies reduce workforce to increase profit.

There was a time when I believe most Hams were fairly moral following rules but when the opened flood gates to new no code and CB extra class with easy tests there is less moral motivation by many of them because they did not have to work hard to get there and have more respect for it.
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--------------------------------------
Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
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