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Author Topic: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain  (Read 40465 times)
KD8MJR
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Posts: 5557




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« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2016, 03:44:45 PM »

I hate doing the thinking for other companies but in this case to save Expert a lot of hassle I suggest they just do a Mod to their circuit design.  Since they make SS Amps, almost all SS amps I have ever seen have at least 3db of attenuation at the input.  Why not just make the Attenuation Resistors into a module that can be plugged out and replaced with a non attenuating module?  They might need to rework the board and add some extra contact Pins on the input board and the modules so that the Amps CPU realizes which module is in place, but I see no reason why this cannot work.

Since most countries do not have the same limitations as the USA with the FCC, they would only be able to sell amps with Zero attenuation modules outside the USA, but dealers in other countries would be stocked with spares.
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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)
NK7Z
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« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2016, 06:42:11 PM »

... Many of today's no code CB Extra class do not even know how to tune a amp and depend on plug and play rigs, amps and tuners to get on air.

(deliberate sarcasm here); "yea, we no-code extras are to blame for everything".

Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA... the no-code extra

RANT MODE ON

I'm pretty sure that there exists a large, undisciplined cadre of "no-code extras", all with their QRP rigs strapped to their backs, shortened whip antennas being wielded like machetes, just waiting to get their hands on a KW level amp, so like the Walking Dead, they can wander the streets in hordes, looking for Old Timer hams in order to kill and eat them.  Much like a hive mind, these "No-Code-Extras" will behave as one entity, tune their amps, and take over 20 Meters, yelling UP UP UP every time someone accidentally transmits on the DX stations frequency...  Oh wait, that has already happened on 20, and it is not the no-code-extras doing it...  So never mind...

Honestly, the term "No code extra" ought to be stricken from the Amateur Radios vocabulary, and anyone using it whipped.  It is the fastest way to make an enemy of a new person in the hobby.  It does absolutely nothing but make the person saying it feel better about themselves, and demonstrates how utterly stupid someone can be once those words leave their mouth...

If you think another ham needs help in understanding how some item works, then help them for Gods sake, don't call them names like an eight year old, just help them...  How hard can this be...  Legislating inter-stage gain because you fear the hordes of Walking Dead No-Code-Extras will take over-- is-- well, just silly...

RANT MODE OFF
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 06:44:53 PM by NK7Z » Logged

Thanks,
Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
N7EKU
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Posts: 1045




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« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2016, 10:24:25 PM »

Hi,

I think the main issue against this proposal, would be the use of such an amp on homebrewed, or qrp kit equipment.  I've seem many many kits with pretty poorly designed final amplifiers.  They tend to have problems with stability, poor biasing schemes, broadband transformer problems, etc.  While using these at their current few watts output may not be a big problem, what happens when you hook them up to a high gain, hundreds of watts or kilowatt output amplifier?

The advantage to lower level output on kits and homebrew, is that issues in the design -- anywhere from the mic amp to the final amplifier -- probably will not cause a lot of problems to other users on the bands, but once such a signal is boosted to hundreds of watts, then what?  Is their CW keying shaped properly?  Is the SSB carrier sufficiently suppressed?  Is the BFO set correctly and the filter shaped properly so that the bandwidth is not excessive?

Sure, running an Elecraft or Icom/Kenwood/Yaesu QRP rig should be fine due to the extensive testing and development of the rig, but this extensive testing and professional development (and proper alignment/adjustment) often doesn't exist in the qrp kit world where complete rigs are coming out of China for a few bucks, etc.

On the whole I would be against this proposal as I feel it would be really opening up a can of worms :-/

73,


Mark.



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Mark -- N7EKU/VE3
KK4YDR
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Posts: 673




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« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2016, 12:38:35 AM »

Sigh the age old argument of "No code" hams caused global meltdown, the birth of Al Gore, and the rise of the 3rd Reich.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 12:48:34 AM by KK4YDR » Logged
W4JCK
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Posts: 150




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« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2016, 01:24:04 AM »

Well, another thread on a reasonable topic has dissolved into the realm of useless.  I did get a chuckle or two from the IMD comments.  It's always interesting to see this bandied about now.  Ten years or so ago, probably 5% of hams knew what this was and what it truly means.  Now we have hundreds of newly-minted Google PhDs who can't wait to type those three letters in a post.

The 15dB limit has no direct correlation to IMD performance.  And as another poster noted, there is really no technical reason for this rule to continue to exist.  But, why should facts get in the way of an opportunity to express our personal biases?  Rock on dudes.
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W1BR
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Posts: 4196




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« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2016, 06:50:01 AM »

... Many of today's no code CB Extra class do not even know how to tune a amp and depend on plug and play rigs, amps and tuners to get on air.

(deliberate sarcasm here); "yea, we no-code extras are to blame for everything".

Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA... the no-code extra

Class of license,  tenure, or CW ability doesn't mean much these days. And, it probably never did. There are tech class licensees that hold PhD degrees in electronic engineering, and there are old fart hams who've been licensed for eons who don't know a resistor from a capacitor.  At one time a ham license assumed that the holder was expected to have some degree of technical ability... the hobby is no longer a purely technical pursuit. But, I fear the backlash is the continuance of FCC regulations which assume that hams are no longer capable of running their equipment legally.  Hams are unique in that we can home-brew equipment and place it on the air; and the government assumes we understand the regulations and abide by them.  Add to this the fact that the FCC was not able to regulate illegal Free Bander or CB issues without imposing unneeded regulations that screwed over ham radio manufacturers, and forced hams to pay higher prices for type accepted equipment. We still have radios being sold with severe ALC overshoot problems, etc.  And  the illegal manufacturing, and sales of equipment for CB and even for use on the commercial AM and FM broadcast bands continues to be ignored by the FCC.  Why have laws that are not being enforced?  Hams and legal manufacturers pay the price, and problems that could be easily addressed (ALC overshoot, etc.) are ignored. The only reason the 15 dB gain limitation was made into law was because of illegal amplifiers being sold CB operators. The laws are not being enforced, and the CB craze is pretty much dead.  Same for the regulations regarding receivers that can tune frequencies used for the old analog cellular frequencies. Another antiquated law that is just as useless.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 06:56:09 AM by K1ZJH » Logged
KK4YDR
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Posts: 673




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« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2016, 09:39:18 AM »

I just get tired of people thinking that the FCC makes law. They do not. The congress does. But even the FCC thinks they make law.
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KK5DR
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« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2016, 11:01:00 AM »

The FCC "rules" have not limited the number of power amplifiers being used on CB, never have.
I dare say there are more large amps on CB than there are in use on all the ham bands combined.
The rules make very little technical sense today.
Time for the FCC to live in the "real world", make and actually enforce the rules.
There it is, the true problem, enforcement.
I'm tried of hearing the whine that the FCC doesn't have money to spend on enforcement.
It's easy, congress needs to make the FCC a self supporting agency. Money they collect in forfeitures would not go into the general fund for congress to piss away on porkulus spending. Instead, it goes into FCC budget. The agency would them be motivated to enforce rules on ALL radio services, not just ham radio.
It's unlikely to ever happen, so debating it is pointless.
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KD8MJR
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« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2016, 12:04:15 PM »

The 15dB limit has no direct correlation to IMD performance.  And as another poster noted, there is really no technical reason for this rule to continue to exist.  But, why should facts get in the way of an opportunity to express our personal biases?  Rock on dudes.

Thats partly true.  The problem is that if one looks to the future and uses the past as a reference then it's easy to imagine that lower powered cheaper SDR transceivers are most likely going to have IMD products that might be horrible but acceptable at 5-10 watts.  What happens when those are fed into a Solid state Amp that brings it up to 1500 Watts?

73s
Rob
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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)
N9AOP
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Posts: 1174




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« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2016, 12:42:10 PM »

Tisha,
I don't have a clue why so many want to blame the no-code extras.  If you read all the editorials written by W2NSD/1 you will know that it was that nasty old ARRL and its incentive licensing that caused firms like Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, Collins and Drake to fold up.
Art

Ten Tec probably folded because it sold it's assets to Larry the Liquidator (RKR).
Art
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NO9E
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Posts: 888




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« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2016, 01:33:33 PM »

Guys,
15m is empty but when you call CQ, DX are coming in at 59. Call CQ and discuss this issue.
The rule 15db does not make much sense nowadays, but like any rule, it is rationalized.

My 1.3k-fa is coming in 2 weeks. KX3 will be driving it. A 25 lb complete KW with antenna switching and tuner. IMD3 only -30db, but -50db if Elecraft decides to add forward correction.

Ignacy, NO9E
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W5JON
Member

Posts: 373




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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2016, 06:48:54 PM »

Well, another thread on a reasonable topic has dissolved into the realm of useless.  I did get a chuckle or two from the IMD comments.  It's always interesting to see this bandied about now.  Ten years or so ago, probably 5% of hams knew what this was and what it truly means.  Now we have hundreds of newly-minted Google PhDs who can't wait to type those three letters in a post.

The 15dB limit has no direct correlation to IMD performance.  And as another poster noted, there is really no technical reason for this rule to continue to exist.  But, why should facts get in the way of an opportunity to express our personal biases?  Rock on dudes.


Yes, the "IMD police", who for YEARS have never given a callsign, or even basic information as to qualifications, but yet we are to accept as gospel everything they post about IMD.   

73,

John
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KOP
Member

Posts: 346




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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2016, 08:57:48 PM »

Tisha,
 
A 4CX5000 has 300 volts of grid bias, and you have a  ~100W PEP exciter. Eb=300 Pd=80 (to have headroom for variables).
Eb² / 2Pd = Rg     so  300^2/ 160 =   562 ohms for Rg.

We both know where it comes from :-) w8ji.com for those not familiar .
I've been rolling my own with some success for years . I just couldn't bring myself to introduce another input/output variable with an additional gain stage
just to drive a GG ceramic with the requisite 100W necessary for full input .
I'm sure the station in a box contingent will appreciate the idea as much as the petitioning manufacturer .

I just don't see the issue . Then again I am a no code extra …


~kop
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I considered a microwave oven magnetron and a 4' dish as a drone-killer. The ERP would be on the order of a hundred thousand watts or so. ~anon

November 28, 2018, 09:16:04 AM
N2SR
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Posts: 1208




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« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2016, 02:44:19 AM »

Sigh the age old argument of "No code" hams caused global meltdown, the birth of Al Gore, and the rise of the 3rd Reich.

Godwin's Law is now in effect.

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If no one is doing it that way, there is a probably a very good reason.
NK7Z
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Posts: 2525


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« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2016, 05:02:30 AM »

Sigh the age old argument of "No code" hams caused global meltdown, the birth of Al Gore, and the rise of the 3rd Reich.

Godwin's Law is now in effect.
I didn't catch that, else I would have called it...  I was wondering when the Nazi would be involved in the discussion...
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Thanks,
Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
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