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Author Topic: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain  (Read 40499 times)
W1BR
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Posts: 4196




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« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2016, 12:45:02 PM »

Well, another thread on a reasonable topic has dissolved into the realm of useless.  I did get a chuckle or two from the IMD comments.  It's always interesting to see this bandied about now.  Ten years or so ago, probably 5% of hams knew what this was and what it truly means.  Now we have hundreds of newly-minted Google PhDs who can't wait to type those three letters in a post.

The 15dB limit has no direct correlation to IMD performance.  And as another poster noted, there is really no technical reason for this rule to continue to exist.  But, why should facts get in the way of an opportunity to express our personal biases?  Rock on dudes.


Yes, the "IMD police", who for YEARS have never given a callsign, or even basic information as to qualifications, but yet we are to accept as gospel everything they post about IMD.   

73,

John

John. I will always give my callsign. I may be old, and opinionated... but I always stand behind my opinions. Right or wrong.  Peter
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K6AER
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Posts: 5745




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« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2016, 02:44:40 PM »

Dragging this back to the original post, the general run of the mill commercial amplifiers have over 20 dB of gain.

There is nothing to keep a ham adding a driver amp to get his QRP radio output to 1.5 KW.

I personally like the idea of the lower power QRP radios being to get to a 200 watt output with a $500 amplifier. Much better for stability to keep the heat out of the radio. The infamous HLA-300V has a attenuator pad up front to meet the 15 dB requirement. Although I suspect this was also added for VSWR smoothing.

I have been around this hobby for a while.

I remember the noise when SSB was allowed on HF.
They took 11 meter from us.
No minimum age limit for hams.
Repeaters went from AM to FM.
Output power was raised to 1500 watt PEP.
Digital repeaters were allowed.
Code speed was reduced to 5 WPM then none at all.

Some how we survived.

As the sunspot cycle gets lower I suspect more amplifiers are in the typical station mix.
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W1BR
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Posts: 4196




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« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2016, 08:10:33 AM »


I have been around this hobby for a while.
 
Repeaters went from AM to FM.
 
Some how we survived.

 

Wow.  There are not many of us left who remember the K6MYK legacy.  At one time my machine had more stations running modified Gooney Birds (with direct FM modulation mods) than those using converted FM gear. I had even gave some serious thought to adding a second AM RX on another frequency.

Pete
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QRP4U2
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Posts: 262




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« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2016, 08:26:42 AM »

Quote from: KK4YDR

Agree and disagree - Profit is not the root of evil and profit provides jobs whether you like or not. Sure adding some new lines to say... Ameritron to add in some very high gain high power amplifiers might ask for high prices but they are probably going to hire 25 more people to build these devices. Some of them having 3 kids to feed, adding to the economy, etc... I hate the anti-profit making mentality of the left, not that you are, it is just there is so many companies who make profit but do so in a intelligent, responsible, and moral way with benefit to families and economies overall. Your blanket statement is well noted but none-the-less confounded generally speaking.


Quote from: KK4YDR
Because some of us enjoy moral obligation, have moral fortitude, and believe in living by moral code. Those that don't probably lack necessary respect for those that do. Golden rule stuff man! Just like speed limits don't stop people from speeding, drinking prohibitions don't stop people from consuming, drug laws don't stop overdoses, and guns are responsible for killing, not the killer. It's call personal integrity, something that almost everyone absolutely lacks in some form or fashion and very few live by. When rule by law is overseen by the immoral government, those subject to immoral government become immoral themselves. The fix is fixing our government before we can fix the immoral people.

Thumbs up on those statements.

I would like to see the US get in line with our Canadian neighbors and increase the PEP figure to 2.2kW  or thereabouts.

Phil - AC0OB
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AC0OB - A Place Where Thermionic Emitters Rule!
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Besides, when you're a Ham, you experiment with and improve boat anchors - that's what you do!. Smiley
W9IQ
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Posts: 3555




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« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2016, 02:04:31 PM »

Clayton,

The proposal does not increase the legal limit. It simply removes the gain restriction. Today a 5 watt signal can be amplified to a limit of ~ 160 watts by a commercial amplifier. If this restriction is removed, then a commercial amp could have more gain allowing a QRP radio to go to 600 or even 1500 watts in one hop for example.

But 1500 watts remains the legal limit.
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
AA4HA
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Posts: 2630




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« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2016, 03:58:24 PM »

--- "Many of today's no code CB Extra class do not even know how to tune a amp and depend on plug and play rigs, amps and tuners to get on air. ---

I did not know that just in the learning of Morse code would equip every radio amateur with the magical ability to tune a tube based amplifier.

Sorry, I am a "no code extra", it must make me dumb or something. Or will you pull a Trump-ism and just say it is because I am a woman?
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Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama
AA4HA
Member

Posts: 2630




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« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2016, 04:00:55 PM »

The proposal does not increase the legal limit. It simply removes the gain restriction. Today a 5 watt signal can be amplified to a limit of ~ 160 watts by a commercial amplifier. If this restriction is removed, then a commercial amp could have more gain allowing a QRP radio to go to 600 or even 1500 watts in one hop for example.
Now that would be a cool feature; a tiny microprocessor with sensing circuitry. When you exceed 1501 watts or modulate outside of the emissions mask it immediately blows the finals out.

 Cheesy   Problem Solved!
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Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama
WA7PRC
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Posts: 2331


WWW

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« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2016, 04:55:54 PM »

I did not know that just in the learning of Morse code would equip every radio amateur with the magical ability to tune a tube based amplifier.

Sorry, I am a "no code extra", it must make me dumb or something. Or will you pull a Trump-ism and just say it is because I am a woman?
I would NEVER say that to Tisha (at least, not without a BIG head start).  Wink
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VA7OJ
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Posts: 43


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« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2016, 12:26:15 AM »

Quote
I think Canada has it right 2250 watts output regardless of mode, PEP, whatever! If you are not licensed for such output on a given frequency, you go to prison, simple as that.


Hi Matt,

Actually the Canadian power limits for Advanced licensees are:

(i) 2.25 kW peak envelope power for transmitters that produce any type of single sideband
emission, or

(ii) 750 W carrier power for transmitters that produce any other type of emission.

Basic and Basic with Honours licensees have power limits which are 6 dB lower.

Here is the link to the relevant Industry Canada document (RBR-4):

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01226.html

73, Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ
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W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




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« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2016, 05:35:32 AM »

I did not know that just in the learning of Morse code would equip every radio amateur with the magical ability to tune a tube based amplifier.

I disagree, back then test was harder and code meant you just could not sit down and take a multiple guess test that you can see questions before hand from a pool. You had to work at it with time on air and using equipment with it and gained experiance

Sorry, I am a "no code extra", it must make me dumb or something.

A no code CB/Extra is nearly as easy to get as a old CB ticket. Most would not be Extra's under old rules. Pretty soon there will be just one ticket that will be mail order with no "test" and CB will be officially reborn. I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it. Today Extra means nothing really because it is so easy to get.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W1QJ
Member

Posts: 2984




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« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2016, 05:48:53 AM »

TBT....Back in 1967 when I was first licensed I belonged to the local radio club.  In the entire membership there was only one lone Amateur Extra ham.  When he walked into the room you would think the "KING" entered.  When all else failed he would be called upon for the final word.  He indeed was the most knowledgeable.  He was very well respected.  Needless to say the same club now has more members with most being the "new style" Extras.  No such person exists any longer. 
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W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




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« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2016, 06:08:13 AM »

TBT....Back in 1967 when I was first licensed I belonged to the local radio club.  In the entire membership there was only one lone Amateur Extra ham.  When he walked into the room you would think the "KING" entered.  When all else failed he would be called upon for the final word.  He indeed was the most knowledgeable.  He was very well respected.  Needless to say the same club now has more members with most being the "new style" Extras.  No such person exists any longer.  

I remember those days too. They are gone now. It is all about profit. They lobbied hard to relax requirements in order to boost sales and profits for those building equipment for hobby without any concern to what it might do to ham radio long term. Sad day for ham radio. When I listen to bands today vs 20 or more years ago you can hear the difference too.

 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 06:50:57 AM by W8JX » Logged

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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W3PH
Member

Posts: 144




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« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2016, 08:05:56 AM »

When I listen to bands today vs 20 or more years ago you can hear the difference too.

You can even hear it on CW - I'm shocked & amazed at the number of people who intentionally QRM dxpeditions - that never used to happen on CW.

I got my extra in (wheeze) 1965.  As I recall you a) had to be general or advanced for at least 2 years, b) be able to copy 20 WPM on paper, c) draw schematics (can't remember of what, but a pentode was involved) and d) do it at an FCC office. 

Oh well.  This is off-topic for this thread, but you're right. 
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W1BR
Member

Posts: 4196




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« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2016, 08:56:32 AM »

What is sad is that hams are straddled by obsolete laws that were intended to mitigate illegal CB operations... and yet, you can find scores of illegal CB amps being sold on the open market--even on eBay, Amazon... at truck stops, etc.  And, a quick Google search brings up scores of sites that are supplying illegal products for the CB market.

So, who has been hurt?  Only hams! The FCC doesn't enforce the law. You can also buy scores of illegal FM and AM broadcast transmitters on eBay, and the FCC doesn't bat an eye.  Complain to eBay, and they play dumb. I attempted to sell a popular ham rig that could be used on CB illegally, and mentioned in my ad that the CB was disabled... it was reported and my auction was pulled. Yet, I have reported numerous auctions for much more blatant violations, and eBay never takes action. 

Who really cares how much gain an amplifier has?  We should be concerned about IMD (linearity issues) and not gain!  Idiots can use two amplifiers in cascade... and CB loons do!  The laws do NOT preclude a ham from owning, or home brewing, an amplifier that exceeds the current gain ratings.

The current FCC method for regulating PEP power is at best a joke!  AM operators are forced to keep their carrier power at 1/4th maximum PEP?  Was this on purpose, or a result of laws that were not thought out?

Many of the current ham regulations need to be rewritten. And whatever laws remaining on the books need to be enforced. So far the illegal amplifier manufacturers are skirting the law, and as much as some of you fools might hate MFJ--they have played by the rules and produce legal products. That adds to their bottom line.

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W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




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« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2016, 09:07:00 AM »

What is sad is that hams are straddled by obsolete laws that were intended to mitigate illegal CB operations... and yet, you can find scores of illegal CB amps being sold on the open market--even on eBay, Amazon... at truck stops, etc.  And, a quick Google search brings up scores of sites that are supplying illegal products for the CB market.

So, who has been hurt?  Only hams! The FCC doesn't enforce the law. You can also buy scores of illegal FM and AM broadcast transmitters on eBay, and the FCC doesn't bat an eye.  Complain to eBay, and they play dumb. I attempted to sell a popular ham rig that could be used on CB illegally, and mentioned in my ad that the CB was disabled... it was reported and my auction was pulled. Yet, I have reported numerous auctions for much more blatant violations, and eBay never takes action. 

Who really cares how much gain an amplifier has?  We should be concerned about IMD (linearity issues) and not gain!  Idiots can use two amplifiers in cascade... and CB loons do!  The laws do NOT preclude a ham from owning, or home brewing, an amplifier that exceeds the current gain ratings.

The current FCC method for regulating PEP power is at best a joke!  AM operators are forced to keep their carrier power at 1/4th maximum PEP?  Was this on purpose, or a result of laws that were not thought out?

Many of the current ham regulations need to be rewritten. And whatever laws remaining on the books need to be enforced. So far the illegal amplifier manufacturers are skirting the law, and as much as some of you fools might hate MFJ--they have played by the rules and produce legal products. That adds to their bottom line.



CB has moved to ham bands today and brought some QRM with it. THey do not need to again rewrite rules, they need to throw new rules and revert to old because changing it is what messed it all up. As far as FCC's teeth to enforce, the GOP congress defunded them for enforcement long ago. They believe is a self regulated free for all.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
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