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Author Topic: Bouvet 2017???  (Read 43131 times)
WO7R
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2017, 04:42:43 PM »

Quote
You need to Haul Generators, Tents, food and Gas to last for 2 weeks.

You might want to talk to last year's South Sandwich / South Georgia team.  They did exactly what you said was impossible (to do in a timely way) and in at one case, they hauled it all up -- and down -- a formidable cliff to boot.  I saw the presentation -- it did not take up an impossibly large amount of the team's time and yes, they were hauling generators and like things.  Still, it was a close run thing.  You could see video where one of the generators nearly disappeared into the ocean -- forever.

It was not easy, but that one, at least, could barely be done without a helicopter.  I think the issue at some of these places may be more that (these days) the authorities require the helo.  That was the case, according to what I read, at Deschero, for instance.  In the old days, it was done more like SSandwich was last year.

The other oncoming problem may be shelter.  The presenter was of the opinion that the "mountaineering" type tents they took -- lightweight and supposed to be very good for this -- were simply decimated by the incredibly high winds they experienced.  I don't know if anyone can get these or pass them around, but the Heard group managed to get some very, very good shelters for their DXpedition.  Whether other groups can obtain the same is questionable, but I can see this becoming part of the mission creep over time.  The SSandwich group suffered some real hardship.  It wouldn't have taken a lot more for that to turn into real danger.

It's easy to say "do it on the cheap."  But, the southern ocean stuff is where "cheap" can mean death.  Speaking for myself, nobody needs to die to activate these places.  If the cost goes up so they don't get blown off of these places or have to be helo-ed in, we should get off our cheapskate duffs and pay or man up and delete them from the list.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 04:47:51 PM by WO7R » Logged
N6PSE
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2017, 06:24:25 PM »

While we were at South Georgia, we decided that our next target of activation would be Bouvet. On the voyage back to Stanley, we had many discussions with Nigel Jolly, owner of the RV Braveheart about going to Bouvet and we were given a cost for the charter.

When we got home, I explored possible ways to get onto Bouvet and carry out a safe DXpedition without the benefit of a Helicopter, pilot and mechanic.

I had significant conversations with noted Film maker Jason Rodi and his mountaineering guide Aaron Halstead about their visit to Bouvet in 2012. They told me that accessing Bouvet was very difficult and immediately after landing they had to climb an ice cliff. They felt that it would be impossible to haul heavy generators, fuel cans etc up the face of the ice wall. I also met with Erling-LA6VM who had previously activated Bouvet. Erling felt that a helicopter was essential for a safe activation.

Given the costs associated with a helicopter, pilot and mechanic and our previous challenges is raising money to activate South Sandwich and South Georgia, we decided not to attempt to activate Bouvet. We are delighted that K0IR, K4UEE and LA6VM are leading the 3Y0Z effort.

Regarding our VP8STI/VP8SGI tents. These tents were selected as they were robust and light weight. We needed tents that two men could carry up the rocky face at Southern Thule Island.

This model is typically used at Base Camp-Mount Everest. They are suitable for high wind environments. Our challenge was that during each of the heavy storms that we experienced on each island, we experienced high winds and heavy snow fall that exceeded the capability of these tents. Considerable effort was used to clear the top and sides of these tents during the storms of snow. Using a 400 lb tent such as the Airbeam tents that were moved via an ATV were not an option for us. Statements that these particular tents were damaged or destroyed are untrue. We had two other latrine tents of the regular camping variety that were destroyed.

I believe that the 3Y0Z team has the best plan and capability to make a safe and productive DXpedition from Bouvet. There are many other rare and much needed entities that are in great need of activation and should be of focus to other teams.

73,

Paul N6PSE
Co-Leader, VP8STI/VP8SGI DXpeditions.

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3Z9DX
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2017, 08:36:59 AM »



If somebody can't climb that 100f long (45deg angle) snow patch  ....better stay at home and complaine about those who can climb and easy get even heavy equipment up there, using rescue board or even long snow sled.

I'm looking for 3 operators willing to join that trip. We have 2 weeks before boat departs from a the Cape Town.

Who wants to join ''life trip'' ?

here is a ''camp'' place

 

and overal view  on landing spot



So... brave BOYS !  who want to join ?



« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 08:42:11 AM by 3Z9DX » Logged
N2RJ
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2017, 08:50:12 AM »

Quote
It was not easy, but that one, at least, could barely be done without a helicopter.  I think the issue at some of these places may be more that (these days) the authorities require the helo.  That was the case, according to what I read, at Deschero, for instance.  In the old days, it was done more like SSandwich was last year.


It was Navassa and I believe it was the team's judgment call since the old ladder was gone.
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N0UN
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2017, 08:50:28 AM »


If somebody can't climb that 100f long (45deg angle) snow patch  ....better stay at home and complaine about those who can climb and easy get even heavy equipment up there, using rescue board or even long snow sled.

I'm looking for 3 operators willing to join that trip. We have 2 weeks before boat departs from a the Cape Town.

Who wants to join ''life trip'' ?


C'mon Rebel.  Don't you know it is much easier to sit in nice warm shacks, smoke cigarettes and belittle DXpeditioneers efforts to go to places like Bouvet, Heard, S Sandwich, S Georgia, Crouzet, etc.?

You better listen to all the Monday Morning Quarterbacks 'round these parts because they'll tell you how to do it.  Even if you don't ask.

There's only a handful - maybe 50 or so DXpeditioneers that I intently listen to their words.  Their words carry meaning and weight.  They've done it.  All the rest (including myself) are nothing more than background static.

Good luck in all you endeavors!

N0UN
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W6GX
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2017, 09:01:52 AM »

So... brave BOYS !  who want to join ?

It doesn't look too challenging to me.  Count me out Grin

73,
Jonathan W6GX
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 09:05:58 AM by W6GX » Logged
3Z9DX
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2017, 10:09:57 AM »

So... brave BOYS !  who want to join ?

It doesn't look too challenging to me.  Count me out Grin

73,
Jonathan W6GX

becouse is not that hard  like 90% of hams think
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AE5X
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2017, 11:13:25 AM »

But, the southern ocean stuff is where "cheap" can mean death.  Speaking for myself, nobody needs to die to activate these places.

Why do we so easily associate the combination of risk and ham radio as something completely adverse to our sensibilities? With so many claiming ham radio to be a "sport" isn't it in keeping with other sports that some would accept that we have a risky component to our sport?

Scuba diving can be relaxing and beautiful in the Caribbean. Or it can take place in a dangerously dark cave 200 feet down - and for what? Ham radio is a hobby for most of us, but for some, it is a sport. Casual motorcycle riding vs. motorcycle racing, etc.

Let's man up and either quit calling this hobby a sport or let's treat it like a sport and let those so inclined assume risk without preaching to them.

John AE5X
http://ae5x.blogspot.com
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3Z9DX
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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2017, 11:24:56 AM »

and here is the point you have to deal with ! is it that scary for you?

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N0UN
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2017, 11:30:13 AM »

But, the southern ocean stuff is where "cheap" can mean death.  Speaking for myself, nobody needs to die to activate these places.

Why do we so easily associate the combination of risk and ham radio as something completely adverse to our sensibilities? With so many claiming ham radio to be a "sport" isn't it in keeping with other sports that some would accept that we have a risky component to our sport?

Scuba diving can be relaxing and beautiful in the Caribbean. Or it can take place in a dangerously dark cave 200 feet down - and for what? Ham radio is a hobby for most of us, but for some, it is a sport. Casual motorcycle riding vs. motorcycle racing, etc.

Let's man up and either quit calling this hobby a sport or let's treat it like a sport and let those so inclined assume risk without preaching to them.

John AE5X
http://ae5x.blogspot.com


Hear, hear!

N0UN
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KB2FCV
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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2017, 11:49:07 AM »


So... brave BOYS !  who want to join ?


Someday I wish I could! Too many family & work obligations for me at this time, otherwise I would sign up in a heartbeat! Until then, I have the utmost respect and admiration to all the hams that make the sacrifices of time, energy & money to put these rare places on the air for us to work.
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SM5GLC
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2017, 04:29:53 PM »

Is this a ham-version of Scott vs Amundsen??

I thought one of the main reason for telling the world about an upcoming expedition is to avoid clashes!
Rather than having two major expeditions go to the same place in a short period of time, to me it makes more sense to pick a spot has NOT
been announced for an upcoming expedition. Especially if the announced do seem be able to pull it through.

But what do I know?  Huh
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WO7R
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2017, 06:09:33 PM »

Quote
Why do we so easily associate the combination of risk and ham radio as something completely adverse to our sensibilities? With so many claiming ham radio to be a "sport" isn't it in keeping with other sports that some would accept that we have a risky component to our sport?

How bravely you bear risks for other people.

Look, we begin to forget at our peril how arbitrary all of this is.  There was never really any "plan" for DXCC and what did and did not qualify.  Look at the original statement.  Look at how the list has changed over the years.

The current contents of the DXCC list aren't some sacred item handed down according to well-understood principles.  What we have is a long journey, with many rule changes, and a heck of a lot of grandfathering.  Today's rules say this.  Tomorrow, they may say that.  We may change them tomorrow for reasons not currently obvious.  We may creatively interpret them to allow this or that that we disallow today.  Kosovo is an interesting test of all of this.

In the end, that list is ratified by nothing except history.  Except for our own inertia, we can change it tomorrow if we like. We usually don't.  And when we don't, we create demand that otherwise would not be there for particular god-forsaken places (as opposed to other god-forsaken places).

Meanwhile, there are some very risky places that we don't go to because it is in an island group with safer choise or too close to the continent or some such and therefore not on the list.  Even South Sandwich has riskier choices than the island usually picked.

IOTA sometimes activates Snake Island, which I personally find insane (read up on it sometime).  But, it is not a DXCC target so far as I know and I hope it never becomes one.  Yet, change the rules a little here, a little there, and we start arguing and even lobbying for people to go to an island full of deadly snakes and no anti-toxin.

There's no particular reason DXCC locations need to be high risk.  There's even less need for our own cheapness to incentivize people to cut corners.

This isn't mountain climbing.  It's a bunch of guys (mostly guys) of mostly below average physique sitting on various rocks playing radio.  It's fun.  It need not be particularly dangerous.  Especially if we, the non-participants, can make it less so with a little extra money.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 06:12:54 PM by WO7R » Logged
WO7R
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2017, 06:57:35 PM »

Quote
Statements that these particular tents were damaged or destroyed are untrue.

Well, I was not there, so I dare not contradict you.  And, it appears that I did so unknowingly.  The tents sure looked pretty bad after some of those windstorms, so I presumed at least some of them were destroyed.  I guess I just misremembered what I was told.

Moving on, the point was hardly to criticize your choices on a particular expedition.  You achieved what at least one of us armchair generals didn't think could be done on the very place we are discussing.

My point was, rather, that I perceive a marked tendency, either from the authorities or from experts like yourselves, to generally upgrade the requirements to go to these places over time.  Whether from an abundance of caution or better technology, only someone like you can really tell me.

But, I would rather hear what you and Dom have to say on the subject than to have those of us who sit home safe and warm as we cheer on people other than ourselves to take who knows what risks.  That shouldn't be our call at all, other than perhaps to urge more caution.  And, we should organize ourselves, overall, especially those of us who don't actually go, to make activating these god forsaken places as safe as reasonably possible.  Which means, in my case, ponying up a little money at least and suggesting that in extremis, maybe the current list isn't so sacred after all in this or that case after due consideration.

I was very glad to see Kingman go, for instance.  As I heard it anyway, the authorities seemed firmly against us ever going again, claiming that they themselves don't like to be there due to sundry risks.  That seems worth some thought on our side of it.  If the "pros" aren't keen, why should we be so keen?
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AE5X
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« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2017, 04:31:41 AM »

Don't call us, we'll call you:
http://k38dom0.wixsite.com/rebeldxgroup/new-dxpeditions-ideas

or:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3KeiPjbgcE

John AE5X
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