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Author Topic: My Trane High Efficiency Furnace Causing Intereference  (Read 8718 times)
W4HCB
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« on: January 07, 2017, 10:08:29 AM »

 Undecided I just found that my furnace is the cause of all my noise on 20 meters. My S meter will be bumping on the bottom left side until my HF furnace lights up then it goes to about S-6.5 and my contact can no longer be understood. I'm using a homebrew  magnetic loop that is located about 6 inches off the ground closet to my home. I have been able to make numerous contacts into Europe prior to heating season.

Any help taming  this  Fire Eating Dragon would be appreciated.
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W1VT
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 10:51:18 AM »

https://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?action=printpage;topic=56620.0
 Cure for Trane XV90
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KC1BMD
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 11:50:24 AM »

Good luck trying to fix it.
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NK7Z
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 05:29:49 PM »

Before you fix it yourself, contact the people that keep your Heater/AC running...  Ask them to contact the manufacturer, in this case Trane,  and ask for an RFI kit.  More than likely Trane has run into this, and has a kit available for free.  They may even pay to have it installed.
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Thanks,
Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
KC1BMD
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2017, 12:28:12 PM »

I had my heating contractor install a kit for my furnace and it did not help. From what I can tell, it was installed according to Trane instructions.
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NK7Z
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2017, 01:53:15 PM »

I had my heating contractor install a kit for my furnace and it did not help. From what I can tell, it was installed according to Trane instructions.
I believe it is Trane's responsibility to fix this.  See if you can get them to push a bit more...  If that fails, then give Mike Gruber a call at the ARRL for direction.
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Thanks,
Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
WB4SPT
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 06:30:28 AM »

I had my heating contractor install a kit for my furnace and it did not help. From what I can tell, it was installed according to Trane instructions.

That kit is not completely effective.  It did contain a line filter (good) and shielded motor wire (OK); unfortunately, the cable beads address only the common mode radiation.  These VSD's have significant differential mode high frequency currents that these "over the cable" beads do not treat. 
Per post #2, I treated my Trane with a 31 mix bead on EACH of the motor phases. 

If you want, read this:  http://www.compliance-club.com/archive/old_archive/020112.htm
It helps a bit to explain the problem statement, although doesn't go far enough into the EMC filter type required at the motor side. 

My fixes worked.  My furnace is only 20 feet from the shack. Before the fixes, S9+, depending on the band, but basically, unacceptable.  After the fix, S1 on 40 and 20m. 
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KC1BMD
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 02:51:21 PM »

Just wanted to clarify: The Trane kit that was installed on my furnace was to cure interference caused by the draft inducer motor and not the blower motor. Your fix refers to the former and not the latter, correct?
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WB4SPT
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 04:13:52 PM »

I didn't have to touch the large, blower motor.   IT's the small guy that is trouble.  And, the closer to the PCB/controller is better for the chokes.  The culprit is not the motor, its the drive circuit. 
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W4HCB
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2017, 05:01:51 AM »

I called Trane customer service and they advised me to call local distributor. The local distributor tech observed the RFI by turning the furnace burner on and off. Reviewed Title 47 CFR Part 15 B and he agreed with me that the furnace was not in compliance. The tech spoke to his district contact and he agreed that Trane would pay for the KIT 14668 as my unit was under warranty however would not pay for the installation $190 as their furnace was not designed as a radiator.I called the district contact and asked that Trane pay for the installation because they were not in compliance with the CFR and he asked that I send him the CFR which I did along with several pages of product manuals that had the statement they the products (printer and TV) were in compliance with Title 47 CFR Part 15 b. Data sent several days ago no word back. I also told him that all their furnaces should be in compliance to be sold in the US. Also that I live in a four unit condo and what if someone else decides to upgrade their furnace.  Huh
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 05:05:10 AM by W4HCB » Logged
W4HCB
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2017, 06:08:09 AM »

This problem is much larger than just fixing my furnace so I have filled a formal complaint with the FCC.
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WB4SPT
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2017, 07:58:11 AM »

I applaud your effort.   There is the "white goods" exemption, however; that may have been in force when the furnace was made.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/kdb/forms/FTSSearchResultPage.cfm?switch=P&id=33062

I've always had an issue with this exemption, and think it basically stinks to allow designs to infiltrate the home "out of spec".  Its bad enough that the spec is not tight enough to ensure good receiver operation, but when you make an exemption, you are wide open to interference.  Millions of these devices are made; the product exposure is very high. 
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NK7Z
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2017, 09:12:07 AM »

I applaud your effort.   There is the "white goods" exemption, however; that may have been in force when the furnace was made.

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/kdb/forms/FTSSearchResultPage.cfm?switch=P&id=33062

I've always had an issue with this exemption, and think it basically stinks to allow designs to infiltrate the home "out of spec".  Its bad enough that the spec is not tight enough to ensure good receiver operation, but when you make an exemption, you are wide open to interference.  Millions of these devices are made; the product exposure is very high. 
I'm not sure how to interpret this sentence, which seems to give hams the upper hand in this sort of issue:

"The appliance remains subject to the requirements in Section 15.5 requiring the device not cause harmful interference, and Section 15.29 regarding inspection by the Commission."

The above is from 15.103, Exempt Appliances, Household Appliances, FCC web site.  If this means what it sounds like, then none of the other text matters if the device causes interference...  Hopefully someone that is a Lawyer is watching this thread, and will chime in on the interpretation of this.
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Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
WB4SPT
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2017, 09:37:42 AM »

Seems to call for a transfer of responsibility FROM manufacturer TO appliance operator:  subpart (b) of interest here:

§ 15.5 General conditions of operation.
(a) Persons operating intentional or unintentional radiators shall not be deemed to have any vested or recognizable right to continued use of any given frequency by virtue of prior registration or certification of equipment, or, for power line carrier systems, on the basis of prior notification of use pursuant to § 90.35(g) of this chapter.

(b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator, by industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental radiator.

(c) The operator of a radio frequency device shall be required to cease operating the device upon notification by a Commission representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected.

(d) Intentional radiators that produce Class B emissions (damped wave) are prohibited.

That puts the OWNER of the Trane furnace on notice that THEY are not allowed to cause harmful interference.  Meanwhile, Trane is off the hook.   Huh

Definition:  Harmful interference. Any emission, radiation or induction that endangers the functioning of a radio navigation service or of other safety services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radiocommunications service operating in accordance with this chapter.
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W9IQ
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2017, 09:52:06 AM »

Dave,


Section 15.1(c) states "Unless specifically exempted, the operation or marketing of an intentional or unintentional radiator that is not in compliance with the administrative and technical provisions in this part...".

The exemptions are contained in section 15.103. Section 15.103(d) lists the following exemption from emissions compliance  "A digital device utilized exclusively in an appliance, e.g., microwave oven, dishwasher, clothes dryer, air conditioner (central or window), etc.". Clearly a household furnace falls within this exemption. This means the furnace manufacture can market the furnace without subjecting it to emissions testing.

To your question - if the furnace, in this case, is causing interference, part 15.103 also specifies what must happen:

"The operator of the exempted device shall be required to stop operating the device upon a finding by the Commission or its representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected."

Similar language is incorporated in part 15.5:

(a) Persons operating intentional or unintentional radiators shall not be deemed to have any vested or recognizable right to continued use of any given frequency by virtue of prior registration or certification of equipment, or, for power line carrier systems, on the basis of prior notification of use pursuant to § 90.35(g) of this chapter.
(b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator, by industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental radiator.
(c) The operator of a radio frequency device shall be required to cease operating the device upon notification by a Commission representative that the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected.


Note that the onus is on you as the operator of the exempted device to cease operation. It does not place the burden on the device manufacturer. This may make you rethink about filing an interference claim with the FCC for an exempted, non-intentional radiator that you own (operate).

You would need to seek redress from the furnace manufacturer under tort law, not FCC regulations. Your attorney may advise you to file an interference complaint with the FCC with the hopes that the FCC will tell you that you are responsible to stop the operation of your furnace since it causing interference. This may help to establish that you are an aggrieved party.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
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