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Author Topic: My Trane High Efficiency Furnace Causing Intereference  (Read 8722 times)
W9IQ
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2017, 09:53:29 AM »

I see that I just posted a reply similar to WB4SPT. We must have been typing at the same time...

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
WB4SPT
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Posts: 777




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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2017, 10:17:13 AM »

You can bet that Trane, and Whirlpool, and many others are enjoying not to have to comply.  NRE for EMC work, and the $20 or so per unit hardware is saved.  Now, for the 0.1% or so of the installs that complain, that rework kit is not much of a penalty.  Makes it around twenty cents spread over the total shipments.  Plus the occasional field service installs, if the owner elects to not install the fixes themselves. 

I wonder who lobbied for this change?
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W9IQ
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2017, 10:29:13 AM »

Quote
I wonder who lobbied for this change?

He asks rhetorically...

Another one that has come up on these forums are the solar panel optimizers (not the inverters) that seem to be an nice RFI source. Section 15.103(h) probably exempts most of those: "Digital devices in which both the highest frequency generated and the highest frequency used are less than 1.705 MHz and which do not operate from the AC power lines or contain provisions for operation while connected to the AC power lines."

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
NK7Z
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2017, 10:32:37 AM »

You would need to seek redress from the furnace manufacturer under tort law, not FCC regulations. Your attorney may advise you to file an interference complaint with the FCC with the hopes that the FCC will tell you that you are responsible to stop the operation of your furnace since it causing interference. This may help to establish that you are an aggrieved party.
Thanks Glenn,
That is as I interpreted is as well.  The offending device still must be corrected to not interfere with a licensed station.  The only real issue is the Amateur Operator needs to prove this to the operator, and the FCC if needed.  This is still a good rule from an RFI standpoint, we as Amateur Operators still have a way to make RFI generating devices go away, it is just more difficult, and things would be better of the FCC got in front of this issue.  Thanks for the interpretation...
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Thanks,
Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
NK7Z
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2017, 10:40:46 AM »

Now, I am going to go out on a limb here, and if you know me, you KNOW I detest RFI...  I can see why that ruleset is in place...  The makers of the devices would have to add RFI suppression to every device for the .1% of us it bothers...  That said, it should be a LOT simpler for us, as Amateur Operators, to get these sorts of problems corrected... 
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Thanks,
Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
AA4PB
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Posts: 15046




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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2017, 12:03:16 PM »

...The makers of the devices would have to add RFI suppression to every device for the .1% of us it bothers...  That said, it should be a LOT simpler for us, as Amateur Operators, to get these sorts of problems corrected... 

No, the makers of the devices would only have to develop a fix for their systems and supply the fix to the 1% of the units that cause a problem.

The operators of the device (homeowner) won't normally have a clue about RFI issues and neither will the company that installed the device. If someone does install some filters or otherwise modify the mfgs design then he voids the mfg warranty and is potentially liable for any future equipment failures. I went down this road with a car dealer who modified the carb. on my brand new car to fix a rough idle problem. He fixed the immediate problem but in the longer term the engine failed due to carbon build-up. The mfg wouldn't do anything under warranty because the dealer made an "unauthorized modification". The dealer and I eventually worked out a deal where I got a new model car at a huge discount.

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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
NK7Z
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2017, 12:18:36 PM »

...The makers of the devices would have to add RFI suppression to every device for the .1% of us it bothers...  That said, it should be a LOT simpler for us, as Amateur Operators, to get these sorts of problems corrected... 

No, the makers of the devices would only have to develop a fix for their systems and supply the fix to the 1% of the units that cause a problem.

The operators of the device (homeowner) won't normally have a clue about RFI issues and neither will the company that installed the device. If someone does install some filters or otherwise modify the mfgs design then he voids the mfg warranty and is potentially liable for any future equipment failures. I went down this road with a car dealer who modified the carb. on my brand new car to fix a rough idle problem. He fixed the immediate problem but in the longer term the engine failed due to carbon build-up. The mfg wouldn't do anything under warranty because the dealer made an "unauthorized modification". The dealer and I eventually worked out a deal where I got a new model car at a huge discount.

I think we are saying the same thing...  Take a look at my previous post...  Good point about an unauthorized modification.  I never modify anything that can be fixed by the maker for the reasons you outlined...  Too bad the entire RFI issue is so far out of control, it will take years to fix this...
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Thanks,
Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
W4HCB
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Posts: 30




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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2017, 02:28:02 PM »

Thanks for all of the information and advise. This website is the greatest.

It appears that my furnace is Exempt from part 15 rules. So what does one do? I sent the chairman of the FCC an email expressing my feelings on the exemption and Trane being able to make a profit by selling a fix.
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W4HCB
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2017, 04:26:58 PM »

Many thanks for all of the information obtained from people in this site on my RFI problem. Your the greatest!

It appears that my furnace may be Exempt from the requirements of part 15 for reasonable protection against harmful interference.

So what does one do? Well I sent an email to the FCC Chairman expressing my  concerns with the exception to the rules and asked why Trane should be allowed  to profit for selling a fix the problem they caused.
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W4HCB
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Posts: 30




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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2017, 03:16:38 AM »

My reply from the FCC Chairman. No help from them.

Dear Mr. Butler,

Your complaint provides valuable information and is shared among FCC bureaus and offices to spot trends and practices that warrant investigation and enforcement action. If the FCC needs more information about your complaint, we will contact you directly.

Each year, the Enforcement Bureau takes hundreds of actions on behalf of consumers that result in tens of millions of dollars in penalties. These actions encourage companies and individuals to abide by the law and reduce future misconduct.

Thank you for your help in furthering the FCC's mission on behalf of consumers.





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W4HCB
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« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2017, 03:48:58 AM »

Trane installed the KIT14668 that made no difference in the RFI. The kit was on the correct path to correct the problem by replacing the inducer harness with a shielded cable, an EMI filter for the AC power, and two ferrite clamp on for the t stat leads.

The source of the RFI is the Variable Speed Inducer that's feed with a three phase square wave. The RFI covers the broadcast band to at least to the TV bands. The Trane technician is going to add a 10 mfd cap to the low voltage supply tomorrow that I don't think will help.

A friend cured his RFI using  numerous Ferrite beads mostly on the three phase motor leads and the Trane Kit.
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W4HCB
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Posts: 30




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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2017, 04:20:46 AM »

Trane came out yesterday and rerouted a cable and moved some ferrite beads and this removed about 95% of the RFI.
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KC1BMD
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Posts: 959




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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2017, 06:51:29 AM »

Trane came out yesterday and rerouted a cable and moved some ferrite beads and this removed about 95% of the RFI.

W4HCB: I didn't think that "Trane" came out for anything and that service was only provided by local HVAC contractors. Could you please clarify if it was an employee of "Trane" and do you have a contact/phone number? Can you provide details about specifically what changes they made, what cable they rerouted and how? Did he add a capacitor as you mentioned previously (this is not part of any Trane instructions and I wonder on what basis he did that - e.g. some update to the instructions perhaps)? Do you have any pics of that area in your furnace? I have the same issue (i.e. KIT14668 installed by heating contractor but noise from fan inducer control circuitry still present).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 07:02:07 AM by KC1BMD » Logged
W4HCB
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Posts: 30




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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2017, 08:48:46 AM »

I'm sorry it was the service manager of the installer. The added capacitor didn't do anything. He made a hole to the right side of the inducer and routed the shielded harness through to the board underneath. Removed the two ferrite bead from the t stat wire and put them one close to the inducer one the other one near the board. The shielded harness should not run  parallel other wires as it radiates noise. I also tied up some other where's to keep them away from the shielded harness. I plan to buy some more snap on ferrites to put back on the t stat wires and put more on the inducer wires and more on the shielded harness. I found that a portable AM radio was useful in finding where the RFI was coming from. If PM me your email address I will send you a detailed information that another ham sent me that cured his problem.
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KC1BMD
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« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2017, 09:14:10 AM »

Thanks, PM sent.
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