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Author Topic: New English?  (Read 14648 times)
W9IQ
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Posts: 3552




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« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2018, 03:58:34 PM »

Then there are the people on eHam who know better but cannot be bothered or are too arrogant to use proper grammar. A recent sample:

"Id like to see..."

"Ive had to..."

"I dont want..."

Sad.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
WZ7U
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« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2018, 04:42:22 PM »

For the contractions, or the missing apostrophe?
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N6QWP
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« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2018, 04:56:57 PM »

Is all this for real?  Asking questions and seeking informative answers is what this forum is all about.  If the question is explicit enough to explain what is being asked, what does it matter if the grammar is entirely correct....or not?

The gents on this forum are being asked for valued information that they have gained over their ham experience (usually be those of us that are very much less informed).  "I resemble that remark".

How about just offering the many aspects of what you have learned and passing it along to those of us who seek your advise.....without the attitude of "If you aren't one of us.....then you don't deserve our time"?

Come on guys.....we all acknowledge the superior knowledge that you have acquired through vast experiences and educational pursuits and achievements ....and appreciate that which you can pass along.....that is why we come here to this forum.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 05:17:24 PM by N6QWP » Logged
W9IQ
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« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2018, 05:23:41 PM »

Of course it is "for real". I have Chinese and Japanese colleagues that exhibit better English grammar.

This doesn't stop me from offering advice. And note that this discussion is on the Miscellaneous Forum. Perhaps some will take note and work to improve their grammar. We can only hope.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
W9IQ
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« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2018, 05:26:34 PM »

Quote
For the contractions, or the missing apostrophe?

Well, without the apostrophes, they are not contractions - they are spelling errors.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
WZ7U
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« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2018, 05:34:08 PM »

D'oh! Corrected yet again. Thanks Glenn.  Wink
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K8AXW
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« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2018, 05:46:01 PM »

To me it's all about communication!  Doesn't the same philosophy apply to CW and SSB communications?  Does one DARE make a mistake using CW?

I ran across this same BS in Germany.  MANY times I could not communicate with Germans using my GI German.....(which for those unfamiliar with the term, the sentence structure is incorrect with GI German.  With proper German, the horse is thrown over the fence to the hay)  Why? Because  the German I used was incorrect and they pretended....or preferred....not to understand what I was trying to say.

I am quite sure that in many cases here on eHam, English is the second language.  I am also quite sure many do not have the skills to write proper English.  I don't.  If you prefer to look down your noses at me because of this, please move on.  

These forums are to help fellow hams.  Not teach English! I'm sure the MISC forum is for ham radio subjects that does not conveniently fit into any other eHam forum.



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A Pessimist is Never Disappointed!
N6QWP
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« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2018, 05:50:27 PM »

I suppose the older we get, in some minds, there is a desperate need to validate our existence and exhibit our accomplishments, so that we can feel worthy of "still being here"?  

I, personally, don't think the value of our existence is determined by what "other people think", but I do accept that premise being important to others.
 
All that aside, I beseech the most learned of us, to please pass along your valued knowledge without being so harsh about those who are less proficient with the english language.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 06:05:45 PM by N6QWP » Logged
W9IQ
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« Reply #83 on: January 13, 2018, 06:11:31 PM »

Quote
Does one DARE make a mistake using CW

A casual mistake is not the subject - we all make those. It is consistently, if not deliberately, poor grammar that is the topic. My prior example is clearly an example of deliberately poor grammar/spelling by the author's own admission.

The same happens in professional circles. If an engineer that works for me uses nomenclature such as mhz, RMS power, etc., they will be summarily corrected. The typical defense is "you know what I mean" or "others use that term". That is as valid as suggesting "you know what they meant" on this this site. Of course we can decode their meaning but that does not validate poor grammar - the topic of this thread.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 06:24:55 PM by W9IQ » Logged

- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
KC8KTN
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Posts: 1930


WWW

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« Reply #84 on: January 13, 2018, 06:15:24 PM »

Yeah
What they said. Or yeah what they wrote.Great ideas CORRECTION#4 WOWHave a Joyous DAY.Try to learn.God Bless
..End of TRANSMISSION.
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N6QWP
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« Reply #85 on: January 13, 2018, 06:55:13 PM »

What do inquiring minds care, in their pursuit of knowledge, about absolute correct grammar?

Information is what is sought......not an English lesson.

Reminds me of an old obsolete English professor (who I obviously cut classes on).  While it might make nice fluent literature, when you get down to the "resistors and capacitors" of a modification or solution, all that matters is what works.
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WZ7U
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« Reply #86 on: January 13, 2018, 07:24:40 PM »

Yeah
What they said. Or yeah what they wrote.Great ideas CORRECTION#4 WOWHave a Joyous DAY.Try to learn.God Bless
..End of TRANSMISSION.

No correction involved. None needed. Save it for something that really needs it, or you're just wasting it. YMMV, WTTC Captain CB
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W7ASA
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« Reply #87 on: January 13, 2018, 07:43:46 PM »

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VK6HP
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« Reply #88 on: January 13, 2018, 08:13:06 PM »

The ability to think clearly and present ideas clearly is closely coupled with good grammar, spelling and style.  I guess this is not surprising since a major reason for writing those high school and college papers is not just to practice English grammar but to formulate and present ideas coherently. So, while it's tempting to say the spelling and grammar don't matter, the reality is that there's a very tight correlation of those things with clear thinking and cogent argument presentation.

I worked as a professional editor for a dozen years. Back then, I learned new things about the English language every day and continue to learn every day now.

One thing I find wonderful about the spread of personal electronic "devices" and the Internet is the renaissance of writing as an activity. Not so long ago, the art of letter-writing was fading and had been replaced largely by the telephone.

I am not surprised that the writing we see on a forum like this one, or in the comments sections of newspaper websites, or in emails, sometimes has poor spelling and grammar. In the "old days" we saw a much smaller volume of writing, and when we did, it had often gone through some kind of filter -- a proofreader, a secretary, a gatekeeper of some kind.

I for one rejoice in the resurgence of the written word, even in its truncated "texting" or "Twitter" form!

As for me, I still have a box of letter-writing paper and a real fountain pen, and sometimes write actual letters to people, with stamps on them!

I'm genuinely interested in this point of view, partly because I write quite a bit professionally, have edited several books and journal special editions with contributions from international engineering writers, and supervised a number of graduate students. I can't really see the value in churning out large amounts of poor quality, uncorrected text.  Sure, it's metaphorically "pen to paper" but to me it has no more value than jotting down lots of shopping lists. By all means get people interested in writing, but there has to be a mechanism for improvement. Constructive criticism is one such mechanism.

Based on my experience in both industry and academia, I observe that the capacity to formulate and codify ideas, and to write and present well is an inestimable advantage to an individual.  It's a gift like no other in terms of what parents' can give, or arrange to be given, to their children.  Colleges and universities, and even some employers, can and do run remedial writing classes but, by that stage, it's often too late.  That's not to say I won't spend a lot of time helping a keen student, especially one for whom English is a second language, put together a thesis or paper.  But I can tell you, the 25th draft of anything gets damned wearing for all concerned. And, on the other side of the fence, it's never fun returning what might, just possibly, be a decent journal paper to an author - if only the reviewer could understand what was being said or the ideas flowed logically.

The pay-off for writing well is greater than ever.  The average standard of writing in industry and academia is so low that one really doesn't have to be that good to capitalize substantially on modest abilities.  I've seen this in, for example, expressions of interest or preliminary submissions in large technical bidding processes.  Probably-OK bids from companies who ought to know better end up on the floor, simply because the standard of composition, disclosure and overall presentation is so poor that no-one feels like wading through the mess and, effectively, doing the company's job for them. A better composed document would most likely have made the cut.

I don't think this is an area for delicate snowflakes: if you're deficient, do something about it, as we do in other areas of life.  Good engineers, in general, are hard reviewers, whatever the situation.  Even for papers that have gone on to win awards, I've received some blistering first reviews, some of which were no doubt justified.  Style and presentation are rarely excluded from these commentaries and you'll never die wondering what an IEEE reviewer (for example) thinks of your English.  While the same absolute standards are not applicable on a a site such as this one, it's important to realize that good writers work hard at the basics and are understandably judgmental about the more ridiculously slap-dash compositions.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 08:28:51 PM by VK6HP » Logged
WA2ISE
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Posts: 1294




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« Reply #89 on: January 13, 2018, 08:35:27 PM »

Back in "grammar" school, we spent lots of time making schematic diagrams of sentences.  Like

 teacher  |  spanked   | Johnny
-------------+-------------------------------
  \The     |

Oh, and they talked about past perfect participles, pejorative tense and all sorts of arcane stuff.  We never actually wrote about anything other than grammatical test patterns...  As that wasn't on the standardized tests we took every year.  Anyway, I figured I'd get a job at a book publisher, newspaper or magazine making diagrams of the sentences in the articles.  Why they'd need that done I couldn't figure, but as they told us that school was to prepare us for working life as adults, well, maybe they would pay me to do this...   Cheesy  


 
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