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Author Topic: Kenwood TS-890  (Read 62499 times)
KX2T
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Posts: 1103




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« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2018, 06:53:57 AM »

After this weekends Dayton Icom drove a stake threw there competitions hart at allowing dealers whatever show rebates in there cost to lower the show selling prices around $3k and that has way more then the 7600 dual watch, its two separate front ends, digi select  RX sections with very low phase noise specs, great dynamic range and on par decent blocking specs.
Electraft has been hit soo hard since the sales of Icoms 7300 world wide has been over 20,000 of just that one model they do comparo's on there site with the 7300 being below $1200 and the basic no frills K3s being $3k plus, now the K3s is a chart topper but ham's just don't want to pay over $3k for a basic radio.
Flex should have stayed in the black box SDR radio area cause they are still having problems with the displays in there M models although they didn't have that seen at Dayton but we will see as there next production rolls out there doors.
I sometimes wonder how in touch these Japanese companies are with there marketing and product development departments, Icom seem to have there ears on the floor of this market but Yaesu and Kenwood seem WTF, like lost in space. Hams are not as stead fast to be brand loyalty as they once were, yes some are but today's smart buyers do allot more research into there purchases. Ham's are just now finding out that Flex doesn't give any real info on there radio's, no real detailed block diagrams or schematics yest the big three are still doing this, the Flex secret black box syndrome is wearing thin and what if they go belly up try getting these small company products fix.
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W8JX
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Posts: 13268




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« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2018, 06:00:14 PM »

Totally agree with W6UV.  Panadapters are a must have when chasing DX.  Also good for contesting. 

I guess its amazing that anyone ever DXed or contested for decades without them huh. I guess there was better operators back then that did not need help aids that many do today. 
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--------------------------------------
Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
N0YXB
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Posts: 1558




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« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2018, 06:20:18 PM »

Totally agree with W6UV.  Panadapters are a must have when chasing DX.  Also good for contesting. 

I guess its amazing that anyone ever DXed or contested for decades without them huh. I guess there was better operators back then that did not need help aids that many do today. 

I know, and while we're at it we should give up GPS and go back to dead reckoning. And hopefully our Air Force can get rid of jets, because prop pilots have to be better, etc...  Smiley
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KA4DPO
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Posts: 1320




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« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2018, 09:17:24 PM »

Totally agree with W6UV.  Panadapters are a must have when chasing DX.  Also good for contesting. 

I guess its amazing that anyone ever DXed or contested for decades without them huh. I guess there was better operators back then that did not need help aids that many do today. 

To this day I just don't know how I did it with Drake and Collins rigs, analog dials, and no spectrum scope.   I had to tune and listen it was agony I tell you. Grin 
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KA5DOB
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Posts: 8




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« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2018, 03:47:57 AM »

Sherwood should test and list this radio in September when it's price and availability are announced. I sure wanting one just knowing it has the latest technology receiver.
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W6UV
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Posts: 1092




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« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2018, 05:56:13 AM »

Totally agree with W6UV.  Panadapters are a must have when chasing DX.  Also good for contesting. 

I guess its amazing that anyone ever DXed or contested for decades without them huh. I guess there was better operators back then that did not need help aids that many do today. 

Hey, let’s go back to AM and spark because who needs newfangled stuff like SSB and CW, right?
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K7JQ
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Posts: 1313




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« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2018, 06:02:18 AM »

Totally agree with W6UV.  Panadapters are a must have when chasing DX.  Also good for contesting. 

I guess its amazing that anyone ever DXed or contested for decades without them huh. I guess there was better operators back then that did not need help aids that many do today. 

In my day, we didn't need no fancy speck-trim scopes or compu-tares. We dx'd and contestered with crystal diode and cat's whisker ray-dee-o's. That's the way it was, and we liked it!  Grin
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KA4DPO
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Posts: 1320




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« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2018, 08:17:32 AM »

Spectrum scopes are nice to have but they are simply not essential for most operating and most hams, like me are casual operators.  I no longer chase paper or contest and the only reason I need a scope is for RTTY and Digital modes which I seldom work anymore.  I can snag DX any time I want too and I don't need a scope to do it.  To my way of thinking, if you need a spectrum scope to work DX you are not a very skilled operator. 

There are four or five Flex owners on here who seem to be mighty upset.  These are exactly the same kinds of responses I saw when the IC-7300 came out.  What are you all so afraid of?  Is it that this radios receiver performance might be top gun?  Wow wee, that would really but hurt the Flexerators wouldn't it. Cheesy Cry
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VK3MEG
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Posts: 951




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« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2018, 09:32:42 AM »

nice to hear the interview with the  ts 890 designer its like an improved ts 870 so similar to 590 and 990  only 1 rx should be a solid radio not my style though
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K7JQ
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Posts: 1313




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« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2018, 09:35:04 AM »

Spectrum scopes are nice to have but they are simply not essential for most operating and most hams, like me are casual operators.  I no longer chase paper or contest and the only reason I need a scope is for RTTY and Digital modes which I seldom work anymore.  I can snag DX any time I want too and I don't need a scope to do it.  To my way of thinking, if you need a spectrum scope to work DX you are not a very skilled operator. 

Agreed, spectrum scopes are not "essential" for casual operating/ragchewing. Nor for chasing DX. Just go to any web cluster to see where the DXpedition or your ATNO is located. Does take out some of the fun of the "hunt" though. A scope may be useful to see the station being worked in a split frequency operation.

But for contesting, a scope/waterfall is a very useful tool, especially if you're working search and pounce. You can see at a glance the band limits of the action, and on a less crowded band fast tune or click directly to a signal blip...saves a lot of time and increases qso rates. Also easier to find an open space to run/call CQ. If you're operating all-band, a quick flip to another band lets you see at a glance if there's any action there to switch bands. Especially in this down cycle where, for instance, you're on 20M and you want to see if 15M or 10M shows any openings to grab multipliers. Again, saves time in not having to tune around blindly. Top (skilled) world-class contest operators agree on this.

It's all just a matter of individual operating preferences. A tradionalist will generally shun the newer technological tools, and others will embrace them. Using a spectrum scope doesn't mean you're not a skilled operator. No right or wrong ways or answers. Just buy and operate the radio you like best, and enjoy the hobby.

73, Bob K7JQ
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KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 1320




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« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2018, 03:09:36 PM »

Spectrum scopes are nice to have but they are simply not essential for most operating and most hams, like me are casual operators.  I no longer chase paper or contest and the only reason I need a scope is for RTTY and Digital modes which I seldom work anymore.  I can snag DX any time I want too and I don't need a scope to do it.  To my way of thinking, if you need a spectrum scope to work DX you are not a very skilled operator. 

Agreed, spectrum scopes are not "essential" for casual operating/ragchewing. Nor for chasing DX. Just go to any web cluster to see where the DXpedition or your ATNO is located. Does take out some of the fun of the "hunt" though. A scope may be useful to see the station being worked in a split frequency operation.

But for contesting, a scope/waterfall is a very useful tool, especially if you're working search and pounce. You can see at a glance the band limits of the action, and on a less crowded band fast tune or click directly to a signal blip...saves a lot of time and increases qso rates. Also easier to find an open space to run/call CQ. If you're operating all-band, a quick flip to another band lets you see at a glance if there's any action there to switch bands. Especially in this down cycle where, for instance, you're on 20M and you want to see if 15M or 10M shows any openings to grab multipliers. Again, saves time in not having to tune around blindly. Top (skilled) world-class contest operators agree on this.

It's all just a matter of individual operating preferences. A tradionalist will generally shun the newer technological tools, and others will embrace them. Using a spectrum scope doesn't mean you're not a skilled operator. No right or wrong ways or answers. Just buy and operate the radio you like best, and enjoy the hobby.

73, Bob K7JQ

Bob, Don't call me a traditionalist.  If that was the case I would happily just use my old Drake B-Line.  I have an IC-7600 that I bought new almost 5 years ago, before that I had an IC-746Pro, still have both rigs.  I understand the lure of eye candy but there does come a time when operator skill and experience will eclipse that and it has always been thus.  I agree it is a matter of individual preference and my preference is the quality of the receiver front end.  That determines everything that happens from the antenna to the headphones/speaker.  I don't need to see DX, I need to be able to hear them.
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K7JQ
Member

Posts: 1313




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« Reply #71 on: May 25, 2018, 04:29:51 PM »




Agreed, spectrum scopes are not "essential" for casual operating/ragchewing. Nor for chasing DX. Just go to any web cluster to see where the DXpedition or your ATNO is located. Does take out some of the fun of the "hunt" though. A scope may be useful to see the station being worked in a split frequency operation.

But for contesting, a scope/waterfall is a very useful tool, especially if you're working search and pounce. You can see at a glance the band limits of the action, and on a less crowded band fast tune or click directly to a signal blip...saves a lot of time and increases qso rates. Also easier to find an open space to run/call CQ. If you're operating all-band, a quick flip to another band lets you see at a glance if there's any action there to switch bands. Especially in this down cycle where, for instance, you're on 20M and you want to see if 15M or 10M shows any openings to grab multipliers. Again, saves time in not having to tune around blindly. Top (skilled) world-class contest operators agree on this.

It's all just a matter of individual operating preferences. A tradionalist will generally shun the newer technological tools, and others will embrace them. Using a spectrum scope doesn't mean you're not a skilled operator. No right or wrong ways or answers. Just buy and operate the radio you like best, and enjoy the hobby.

73, Bob K7JQ

Bob, Don't call me a traditionalist.  If that was the case I would happily just use my old Drake B-Line.  I have an IC-7600 that I bought new almost 5 years ago, before that I had an IC-746Pro, still have both rigs.  I understand the lure of eye candy but there does come a time when operator skill and experience will eclipse that and it has always been thus.  I agree it is a matter of individual preference and my preference is the quality of the receiver front end.  That determines everything that happens from the antenna to the headphones/speaker.  I don't need to see DX, I need to be able to hear them.

John, you missed my point. I didn't call you a traditionalist, but you stated that you are a casual operator and don't need a spectrum scope for that and the occasional DXing. I agreed. The majority of my post was pointing out the advantages of using a scope in contests. Even the most skilled and experienced operators are always looking for new tools to hone their skills for better scores. Like going from hand-written paper logs to advanced computer logging. Likewise spectrum scopes...more than just eye candy. BTW, everybody's preference is the quality of the receiver front end. Can't hear 'em, can't work 'em. Enjoy the holiday weekend.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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ZENKI
Member

Posts: 1648




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« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2018, 02:29:51 PM »

And  H mode mixer design was further explored by PA3AKE.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~martein/pa3ake/hmode/index.html

It really demonstrated that a up conversion radio could perform equally as good as a down conversion radio if the right quality filters and parts were used in the design.

the TS-890s receiver front-end appears to be using a so-called "H-mode" mixer that gives fabulous performance.  QEX had a few articles over the years about this one.  It's no doubt a significant reason for the stellar receiver specs that the Kenwood hamvention advertising picture is reporting.  So one can hope that the images and phantom signals will get taken out by the new design.

73, Ed
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ZENKI
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Posts: 1648




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« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2018, 02:37:54 PM »

While the figures are terrific, it all becomes meaningless when you have a radios with keyclicks and IMD splatter thats  70 to 80 db worst at the same signal spacing that lays waste to your so called excellent receiver engineering.

 Maybe one day  all the critics of transmitter performance will wake up to this simple fact that receiver performance while important has to match transmitter performance at the same signal levels  especially when the signal strength is strong and close.

But we do have the "super golden ear" hams who can magically use their favorite  new ham brand toy who can somehow magically make this IMD and key clicks  go away. Their favorite radio brand can somehow improve another hams transmitter because they such good black box drivers..  I might have to go back to engineering school to learn how I can do that.

The new Kenwood would be a brilliant radio if the transmitter IMD performance was such that IMD suppression at 5khz was at least 50db down and anything beyond 5khz greater than 50db using a real voice. Commercial SSB  HF radios could easily achieve such levels of performance without even using pre-distortion or cartesian feedback for IMD improvement. Kenwood can design clean radio PA's with excellent IMD performance if hams demand such performance.

While hams continue to buy radios with IMD performance thats not better than a  truck stop CB radio nothing is going to change. Same goes for the radios that are still being sold with ALC splatter and keyclick faults.

Theres more than enough radios on  the top of Sherwoods list to keep all brand worshipers happy. Its just a shame that all of them are at the bottom of the transmitter performance table chart and still in the stuck on the "crap performance" table chart and have not moved for 10 years. If  Sherwood sorted that same table by transmitter performance maybe then hams would understand the issue better and then start whining to the manufacturers.

Kenwood's TS-890S poster says (found it with Google on QRZ and hamlife .jp :

3rd order IMD ... 110 dB
RMDR ... 112 dB
Blocking DR ... 150 dB

and all of these are specified for 2 kHz spacing, at 14.1 MHz, CW, 500 Hz BW, Preamp off...  standard testing settings for Sherwood.

That puts it at the top of Sherwood's list.

73, Ed
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 02:51:41 PM by ZENKI » Logged
VE3WGO
Member

Posts: 451




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« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2018, 08:56:40 PM »

....The new Kenwood would be a brilliant radio if the transmitter IMD performance was such that IMD suppression at 5khz was at least 50db down and anything beyond 5khz greater than 50db using a real voice. Commercial SSB  HF radios could easily achieve such levels of performance without even using pre-distortion or cartesian feedback for IMD improvement. Kenwood can design clean radio PA's with excellent IMD performance if hams demand such performance.

......
[/quote]

Yes, the key words that were missing in your post, were "and pay for", as in "... excellent IMD performance if hams demand and pay for such performance."

Because Zenki, achieving and maintaining -50 dBc intermod products without digital predistortion (DPD) and peak clipping/filtering, isn't very likely in a 100W wideband PA.  And DPD isn't cheap.  And it's protected by a mountain of IPR (ie, Patents, of which I have several granted.. look me up in the uspto if you don't believe me).  Navigating the linearization technology minefield is treacherous at best.

73, Ed
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