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Author Topic: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610  (Read 12801 times)
AC7CW
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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2018, 06:41:35 PM »

However, the FTDX101MP looks like it was beaten with the ugly stick and lost. Give me an Icom any day.

Peter DL8OV

Not ugly exactly, "aesthetically challenged" might be a nicer way to say it Smiley
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
KX2T
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2018, 08:30:05 PM »

Maybe a look at the Icom technical info series that dives into what does what on the 7610 plus an excellent review buy AB4OJ, Aam has some great technical info one which FPGA does what so unless you designed these radio do the research first.
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W6RZ
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2018, 10:33:56 PM »

Maybe a look at the Icom technical info series that dives into what does what on the 7610 plus an excellent review buy AB4OJ, Aam has some great technical info one which FPGA does what so unless you designed these radio do the research first.

Since you keep mentioning Adam, here's a post from him where he agrees with me about the functionality of the second FPGA,

https://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,120555.msg1076770.html#msg1076770
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KX2T
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« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2018, 05:29:55 AM »

I only stated what was on his site and nothing more, maybe if I was a self proclaimed expert like yourself I could sit down and design a better radio but alas I don't poses that knowledge just try and understand what more knowledgeable experts try and give to us masses of semi technical hams. In the words of one of your west coast buddies out there "Excuse Me"
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VK1XX
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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2019, 12:24:17 PM »

As a designer of commercial high end SDRs (with $1000 ADCs) , I can agree that the best overall performance currently is still an IF strip.

The IMD is very differently behaved in a ADC compared to conventional radio, and this is still not well understood by reviewers. 

While the close in IMD might be line ball between a direct sampler and IF receiver, all the in band material is equally challenging for the direct sampler.

In an pure direct sampling receiver, the IMD products are a fixed level below full scale. You choose your full scale input (beyond which all hell breaks loose)  and then settle for the noise floor due to IMD products.

While there are other spurs, of varying levels, the IMD is the principal offender. The more pricey ADCs require very close attention and skill of any analog circuitry ahead of the inputs. The result is a sum of both ADC IMD behaviour and analog behaviour. I suspect some of the art of good IF strip design is being lost in the modern design world due to a lack of skills.

I think Yaesu have done a good thing to combine high Q tunable front ends with direct sampling.

However from a marketing POV, I don't think they have read the market as well as Icom.

Put a direct sampling radio without sufficient front end selectivity  on a crowded multi-operator contest site, it will fall apart.

Glen English
VK1XX/AI6UM
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KX2T
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« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2019, 03:16:59 PM »

Well considering each ADC in a commercial RX is at a $1k per ADC maybe Icom will introduce a Hi End version of there 7861 but with SDR technology. You cannot say the Icom did not have there ear to what would work in selling nearly 30,000 7300 rigs and by now I am sure they might be at 10k in sales of there 7610 world wide. BTW Yaesu has not even come close to the 7300 numbers even with the entire FT101 line  years ago in which half of those radio's were sold to the CB crowd. Icom has taken proven technology with there front end design with there digi select used in the 7700 and 7851 which seem to work well enough for one of the largest winning contest station K3LR besides when you build a multi OP station you are installing much more into front end protection then just relying on what is in the radio. The huge difference here is what some hams form an opinion against real hard facts in already built and design stations. When you look at these station and there design you also must consider these are amateur stations almost design around a commercial environment.
Yaesu has a long way to go and until the new radio comes out it very well might be an analogue front end with the sdr section being what drive a sexy pan display but I hope not.
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VK1XX
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« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2019, 03:58:08 PM »

Yeah as an old 'yaesu man' I agree Yaesu are in the wilderness, and have been for years.  The FTDX1200 and 3000 are rather average performers in the RF dept.

I imagine that the IC7300 severely canabilized the midrange and high end  rigs of all the big three, Icom included.

 
Even the high end expensive ADCs still dont exceed much more the 96dB IMD3 or 100dB SFDR. Some will get to 105dB in some specific conditions...  The sample rate goes up on the $$$$ converters and not much more.  So the IF with 24bit IF converter is still king.  There's no other ADC family that will make 120dB distortion like the best analog radios do.

But the 95dB IMD3/ SFDR radios certainly are good enough for 99.9% of hams.  And that is where Yaesu missed the point. Icom took a bold leap probably well knowing that there would be situations where the IC7300 would die to a fiery ball of crap where the analog radio would just degrade gracefully. 99.9% of hams would never push it to that point, so they got a reasonable winner for low BOM cost. (and it has a nice user feel).

So there is not going to be any high end ICOM come out with a expeensive ADC , 'cause they dont exist with 7851 style performance... At least not for a while.


-glen


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N8FVJ
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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2019, 06:57:18 AM »


I doubt the Yaesu will have a better receiver vs the IC-7610, but we shall see. Unless contesting, most newer transceivers gets the task done with bands not being crowded now a days during normal operation. 15 years ago 75 meters at night was crowded 'wall to wall'.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 07:00:32 AM by N8FVJ » Logged
KX2T
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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2019, 08:00:04 AM »

If Icom came out with an SDR replacement for the 7851 it would be like stabbing themselves in the foot, they have there statment radio and its one of the finest superhets around with better DSP technology than the Kenwood 890s, the NB and NR circuits in the Icom were and still are far superior against the kenwood radio's but in front end they finally came out with a K3s killer, I do believe kenwoods CEO wanted at least this.
With the 7300 they placed an above average for its price range band pass filter network and for those who really still read the friggin manual an adjustable RF gain control which if use properly will not turn the radio into a pile of crap withing the presence of strong signal. After all the radio without pre amp is almost the same as most other radio's with the Pre Amp one engaged so you have an overabundance of sensitivity combined with DSP filtering with adjacent channel selectivity topping 110db in a radio that cost right around a kilobuck. Not to mention the appealing easy UI of the radio, touch screen display, clean TX which sound great with a host of other features plus it was the first 100w SDR with knobs besides the Elad which was like a qrp rig.
The 7610 raised the bar and gave the contesters a radio like the new Flex rigs but with a more conventional feel, believe me I have used the 7300 at my home in contest and except for the times I wanted to bop between two bands an see what is happening real time for SSB the 7300 does very well but going to a larger multi op station I would feel much more confident with the 7610 for both phone and CW, both radio's have done very well in wall to wall conditions.
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VK1XX
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2019, 02:07:13 PM »

(7851) I can't see how they could build a better receiver that would be worth the money and the redesign. They could maybe simplify it - stay with existing 1st conversion analgo setup and go high end digital IF from there, and make it cheaper... but for no gain from the manufacturer. they're not going to sell more 10 grand radios that way , and I doubtt hey'd even reduce the BOM cost.

There *might* be some room to improve LO purity and thus adjacent channel performance a little. But I just don't see it happening . What we are seeing is the difference in performance  between the top end and low end shrinking. I agree the 7300 is a fine radio in all respects.

Manufacturers IMO should concentrate on reducing transmitted 3rd and 5th and 7th  order IMD....

These days its fairly low hanging fruit.

glen
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K0UA
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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2019, 05:41:21 AM »

 As the owner of two side by side 7300's which I operate both at full 100 watt power simultaneously day in and day out, as long as you have some antenna separation and have brains enough to turn down the RF gain a bit, I will have you know they do not turn into "flaming balls of crap".  In fact they play very nicely with each other.

I almost didn't buy my first 7300 due to complaints of the dreaded Overload light coming on in the presence of strong signals.  But I went ahead and discovered that only Morons ran the preamps and had overload problem.  YES MORONS.  Anyone that is suffering with their 7300 doesn't have a clue how to operate the radio. I am very pleased with the performance of these radios, especially for the money they cost. Are there better radios out there?.  Yes, but price/performance ratio must be considered. Would I love to have a 7610, yes I would. Who wouldn't want some extra bit of performance? Does the new Yaesu deliver? We don't really know yet.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 05:46:31 AM by K0UA » Logged

73  James K0UA
ARRL Missouri Technical Specialist
KX2T
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2019, 09:12:04 AM »

Wow that is a nice post but very harsh but gets to the point! The front end in the 7300 is really just as good as any superhet I have owned before it like the 590S and the FTDX3000 and as long as you DON"T TURN ON THE PRE AMP STAGES which you really dont need to do at HF cause the actual sensitivity is very good without its is good to go. Many who buy that radio never open the manual which cover the judicial us of the RF gain control and once that is mastered they really start to find out how good the 7300 is but  because of things like YouTube video's by some EU station and a VK station when these video is watched they have the pre amp on and the overload light will start to tun on in the presence of strong signals, this is were you discover who is the MORONS and who did RTFM.
Too the last poster the 7610 is better in some ways but to be honest I miss my little 7300, that dam radio was soo easy to use I could operated it with my eye's closed or almost asleep, its a wonderful example of a company who started at the lower price point first and build up from there, IMO Yaesu is doing it ass backwards and this new rig has yet to be proven so by the time Yaesu has there new battleship in the market I would place strong bets that Icom will have a newer SDR radio with Knobs that will destroy the Yaesu, again I used to be a Yaesu Fan Boy.
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K0UA
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« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2019, 07:19:41 AM »

Wow that is a nice post but very harsh but gets to the point! The front end in the 7300 is really just as good as any superhet I have owned before it like the 590S and the FTDX3000 and as long as you DON"T TURN ON THE PRE AMP STAGES which you really dont need to do at HF cause the actual sensitivity is very good without its is good to go. Many who buy that radio never open the manual which cover the judicial us of the RF gain control and once that is mastered they really start to find out how good the 7300 is but  because of things like YouTube video's by some EU station and a VK station when these video is watched they have the pre amp on and the overload light will start to tun on in the presence of strong signals, this is were you discover who is the MORONS and who did RTFM.
Too the last poster the 7610 is better in some ways but to be honest I miss my little 7300, that dam radio was soo easy to use I could operated it with my eye's closed or almost asleep, its a wonderful example of a company who started at the lower price point first and build up from there, IMO Yaesu is doing it ass backwards and this new rig has yet to be proven so by the time Yaesu has there new battleship in the market I would place strong bets that Icom will have a newer SDR radio with Knobs that will destroy the Yaesu, again I used to be a Yaesu Fan Boy.

Yes, I may have been a bit harsh in my previous comments. But I do tire of the comments about receiver overload from unknowing, unwitting people who post reviews.  How about that? Less harsh? Smiley Yes the operating system of the 7300 is near intuitive( at least by my way of thinking)  and day to day operation is a joy. It would seem that those in charge with making the MMI (Man, Machine Interface) design at ICOM easy to use,  have their "stuff" together.
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73  James K0UA
ARRL Missouri Technical Specialist
HB9PJT
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« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2019, 06:26:35 AM »

Glen, thank you for all the interesting information. I would be interested to know what resolution and sampling rate these $1000 ADC's have. Thank you very much.

73, Peter - HB9PJT

As a designer of commercial high end SDRs (with $1000 ADCs) , I can agree that the best overall performance currently is still an IF strip.
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VK1XX
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« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2019, 12:11:53 PM »

yes and IC7300s with a transverter is a joy to use on VHF. But direct sampling on VHF is not so great as I will show below....so I wonder if the IC9700 will be any good.

The $1000 ADCs are items like 4 Gbps dual channel, 12 bit. Mainly used for oscilloscopes and fats digitizing, also small scale cellular base stations .

But the two tone performance (IMD) and SFDR (spurs that appear 'randomly' depending on what else is in the ADC) still top out  at 90 to 100dB below full scale. See everywhere everything is referenced to full scale. In a pure analog receiver, many things are referenced to the minimum discernable signal.

That's why the hybrid analog front end/digital narrow band IF using 24 bit audio style converters making 120dB IMD /SFDR still rules the roost. But you have a hell of a job making the analog front end that good. You end up with a 7851....

Again it is about setting the full scale of your radio. With 90dB SDFR/IMD, If the radio is set at a full scale of say 0dBm, in most cases, on 80meters, the noise level on your dipole will be ~ -90dBm, so no problem.....

The performance on weak signal VHF is not so great.

 If the full scale level is set at -30dBm, which actually might be a bit marginal because you can point your beams at stuff , the lowest usable level will be say 90dB below that. : -120dBm. That's where the spurs, the grass, the IMD will end up.

Remember from my first post - the IMD levels are all a fixed level below full scale regardless of the input level !

So if there are two OPs up the road and they are both -100 in your receiver, the IMD will still be -120dBm per the above case . terrible !!!

Oversampling means that is not the noise floor, the noise floor is more too do with the SNR and ratio of the ADC sampling rate to the final information rate. For SSB, a 122 MSps converter will yield an output SNR of about 111dB below full scale.
So, again, if the full scale is -30, the noise floor in a SSB bandwidth will be -30-111 = -141dBm. which is OK.

We satisfy SNR requirements, but if two OPs are next door on 144.15 and 144.2 that will throw -120dBm signal intermods on 144.1, 144.2

That's the limit of direct sampling VHF work...

did that make sense ?



 




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