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Author Topic: Yaesu FTDX 101MP will challenge the Icom IC 7610  (Read 12681 times)
KT0DD
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Posts: 457




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« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2019, 07:56:53 AM »

As the owner of two side by side 7300's which I operate both at full 100 watt power simultaneously day in and day out, as long as you have some antenna separation and have brains enough to turn down the RF gain a bit, I will have you know they do not turn into "flaming balls of crap".  In fact they play very nicely with each other.

I almost didn't buy my first 7300 due to complaints of the dreaded Overload light coming on in the presence of strong signals.  But I went ahead and discovered that only Morons ran the preamps and had overload problem.  YES MORONS.  Anyone that is suffering with their 7300 doesn't have a clue how to operate the radio. I am very pleased with the performance of these radios, especially for the money they cost. Are there better radios out there?.  Yes, but price/performance ratio must be considered. Would I love to have a 7610, yes I would. Who wouldn't want some extra bit of performance? Does the new Yaesu deliver? We don't really know yet.



I can't believe that in 2019, so few know how to use their RF gain control. I learned from the old Ten Tec Orion II contesters, the trick of setting the volume at an acceptable level and then using the RF gain control for your audio/signal gain. I loved my old Ten Tec Orion II and in it's day it was the first of it's kind leader in the true SDR/Analog hybrid crowd. Of course the big three caught up and quickly passed Ten Tec while Ten Tec started dying it's slow and painful to watch demise. I sold my Orion II only because it was really way more radio than I needed and needed cash for other stuff, along with no more Ten Tec firmware updates to be had for it.

Rob Sherwood wrote a paper stating that most modern receivers have more than enough sensitivity (in some cases WAY more than is needed and harmful to selectivity.) He teaches that RF gain is not a signal losing adjustment compromise, but rather using it clears up some of the excess hash from too much sensitivity to give you a better signal to noise ratio for copying weaker in-the-noise signals. I have found this to be true especially on the Icom 7300.

I have never had problems with the OVF light coming on and had to force it to come on just to see it by using preamp 2 and RF gain wide open, a situation that I never do normally. The only time I use preamp 1 is on the bands above 17 meters and I have never had to use preamp 2 yet. Of course the majority of my operating is 75-17 meters and rarely are conditions there these days for 15-10 to peak my interest.

73. Todd - KT0DD
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 08:01:30 AM by KT0DD » Logged
K6BRN
Member

Posts: 1339




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« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2019, 09:49:17 AM »

Greg (NI8R):

Always a pleasure, Greg.  FB on the 7851.  The "best radio" is always very personal, and I love well-done analog radios even though my own work is in DSP systems.  You're making me wish I had one to play with!  Too bad we don't live close by (though I will be in Gambier OH later this year).  Then we could sit back, compare systems and have some fun appreciating fine electronics and other interests.

On the El Primero - FB as well.  Zenith has a 50th anniversary this year, don't they, with some spcial editions issued?  Or was it 2018?  Anyway - not the topic for this forum.  Email me and we can take this off-line.  My email on QRZ is good.

Best Regards,

Brian- K6BRN
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K6BRN
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Posts: 1339




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« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2019, 10:04:02 AM »

Todd (KT0DD):

Quote
I can't believe that in 2019, so few know how to use their RF gain control

Well said.  I feel the same way.  Some fellow ham club members were very surprised when I demonstrated an old Heathkit HR-1680 receiver next to an FTDX-3000 with DSP noise reduction.

The HR-1680 (which is solid-state, but very basic) had no problem pulling out weak signals with minimal noise, just by careful adjustment of RF gain, AF gain and the preselector.  NO noise reduction needed.

And with direct RF sampling radios (SDRs) it's really very similar.  As long as the ADC is noise loaded, weak signals will come through,  then subsequent filtering will reduce noise bandwidth to cover just the signal of interest, which will pop out from the background very nicely on most designs.  Some SDRs have a variable RF gain stage in front of the ADC (and AGC to go with it), while others have only attenuators.  Either way, reducing the input signal can help.

In the tube days, Heathkit used to recommend setting AF gain to 12 o'clock and controlling volume with the RF gain, on many radios.  It worked.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN
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HB9PJT
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Posts: 415


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« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2019, 04:24:55 PM »

The RF gain of the IC-7300 actually is a adjustable attenuator which does decrease the sensitivity. It is NOT an RF gain.

73, Peter - HB9PJT

As the owner of two side by side 7300's which I operate both at full 100 watt power simultaneously day in and day out, as long as you have some antenna separation and have brains enough to turn down the RF gain a bit, I will have you know they do not turn into "flaming balls of crap".  In fact they play very nicely with each other.

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KX2T
Member

Posts: 1103




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« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2019, 04:40:58 PM »

Todd, nice pair of 7300's, yes the RF gain control is your friend as it has always been in many designs today and yesterday but some just don't know how to use it. Here on the east coast when running either my 7300 or now the 7610 I always back off on the RF gain control on 40 and below or with the 7610 just add some attenuation, even on 20 meters when it gets crowded and conditions get better.
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KX2T
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Posts: 1103




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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2019, 01:30:29 PM »

I hear the FTDX101D is now type accepted from the FCC but not the MP version yet so everyone hold your wallets open!
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KX2T
Member

Posts: 1103




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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2019, 01:33:24 PM »

Todd, I had seen another ham who had two 7300's with two array solutions band pass filtering networks plus station automation with two different amps, a really slick SO2R setup and still about the same investment as one 7610.
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AC7CW
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Posts: 1355




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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2019, 12:50:08 PM »

Most modern radios have menu systems that produce headaches.  The signals of interest have often moved on by the time we get to the menu adjustment that would have improved reception on the desired signal.

The very best solution will be for fully programmable menus that can be configured *easily* to the user's own preferences, and placed on "quick-keys" on a touch screen or soft keys adjacent to the screen if the user prefers that.

The manufacturers who evolve to that user interface will be the ones who get the most market share, IMHO.  The present crop of menu driven radios is so bad compared to their knobbed ancestors that it makes me wonder how hams can stand using them.


Agree 100%. I hate going through menus while operating. Having a few knobs and switches assigned to whatever I like and where i like them would be great. I could understand and live with the menu thingy if I only had to use it ONCE.... menus pull attention away from operating way more than knobs and switches.
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
K7JQ
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Posts: 1304




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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2019, 05:35:52 PM »

After having many radios with tons of hard buttons and knobs over my 60 years in ham radio, I found that with the clutter on some of the radio's face, that was almost as confusing as accessing menus that are mostly set-and-forget.

Enter my current radio, the Icom IC-7300. I originally bought it as a backup to my (now sold) IC-7600, but found myself using the 7300 95% of the time, even for my operating preference, contesting. Surprised the heck out of me! I found that the hard buttons and knobs on the uncluttered 7300 face are all I really need for operating fast and on the fly. The FUNCTION button and MULTI knob easily get you to quick, intuitive areas to change lesser used operating parameters, like power, mic gain, key speed, compression level,etc. The MENU button easily leads you to mostly set-and-forget functions. And the performance rivals radios that cost three times and more. Again, really surprised me. IMO, more knobs and buttons don't necessarily equate to ease of operation and overall performance. YMMV.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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IK0TIX
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Posts: 32




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« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2019, 01:04:48 AM »

http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

and now, what you do
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KX2T
Member

Posts: 1103




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« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2019, 07:00:50 AM »

The 7300 to me was the most simple easy to use radio I have ever owned bar none, its performance per dollar value was extremely high plus for most operating I found it more than good enough, the 7610 was some ice cream on the cake but if I had to down grade cause I just could not afford the big box radio I would have another 7300. It is simply amazing how many hams are reluctant to use the RF gain control, maybe cause there are a bunch of newer hams that came from 11 meters that nobody ever showed them how to use that control or they just want to see the S meter wiggle and reducing the gain in most radio's reduces that wiggling effect. I also think that is why there are soo many from the 11 meter crowd that like the Flex rigs cause the way they sample there S meter is way different than most any other rig out there except for maybe the Anan. I learned the use of the RF gain control more than 50 year ago cause most of the receivers I used back then didn't have very good front ends so that was an easy way to make an average RX for that day work around strong stations without distortion but today it must be all about the wiggle effect.
Yes the numbers are starting to come out  on the FTDX101D , yes in some area's they are better and if you want bot RX sections to have all the filtering plus VC RF tuning filters its gonna cost more bucks so there will always be something better but its for a higher price so you have to ask yourself if this is something you really need or just want. The one thing I would like to see if this hybrid Supehet/SDR has any more noise as far as internal RX noise then a SDR only radio, even the best superhets seen nosier than true SDR radio platforms and also how good there noise mitigation controls work as well, this is one are it seems the Icom does an excellent job and this comes from a former Yaesu Fan Boy!
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N8FVJ
Member

Posts: 900




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« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2019, 10:01:29 AM »

FTdx-101 is listed on Sherwood Engineering receiver comparison list. It is the top performing receiver and superior to the IC-7610. But either receiver high performance, it does not matter much.
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KA1CNK
Member

Posts: 13




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« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2019, 10:05:43 AM »

Now Elecraft has the k4 in the works that has direct sampling SDR and optional superhet recievers. New thing to debate.
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N6YFM
Member

Posts: 831




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« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2019, 12:14:30 PM »

As the owner of two side by side 7300's which I operate both at full 100 watt power simultaneously day in and day out, as long as you have some antenna separation and have brains enough to turn down the RF gain a bit, I will have you know they do not turn into "flaming balls of crap".  In fact they play very nicely with each other.

I almost didn't buy my first 7300 due to complaints of the dreaded Overload light coming on in the presence of strong signals.  But I went ahead and discovered that only Morons ran the preamps and had overload problem.  YES MORONS.  Anyone that is suffering with their 7300 doesn't have a clue how to operate the radio. I am very pleased with the performance of these radios, especially for the money they cost. Are there better radios out there?.  Yes, but price/performance ratio must be considered. Would I love to have a 7610, yes I would. Who wouldn't want some extra bit of performance? Does the new Yaesu deliver? We don't really know yet.



Wait, what?   You are surprised?
Don't worry, there is an endless supply of "Moron" and "Stupid".   (Some of it hangs out here too...)
[Editor's note:  If I could just figure out how to harvest "Stupid", I would have more money
than Bill Gates ]

I also have an Icom 7300, have used it in Field Day environments, and had no trouble.

You are simply noticing a true fact about the general public;

- Only about 5% think.
- Another 15% would like to think that they think.
- The rest would rather be dead than think.
- Better than 75% have never opened the user manual.
- Half of all hams could not explain verbally when to use pre-amps or RF gain,
    and how that affects the input to an SDR's ADC chip.

The sad truth is that most of the public has been rendered into "Appliance Operators" in
the 100 years since most of our economy left the farm, and likely can't even change
their own car tire if needed.

But alas, DON'T COMPLAIN.   Those fools who know nothing and get tired of the OVF light
will sell you that amazing, high performing Icom 7300 for a super discount since they
"think" (s.i.c.) that it is no good.  :-)  :-)

Cheers,

Neal
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N6YFM
Member

Posts: 831




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« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2019, 12:30:34 PM »

Todd, I had seen another ham who had two 7300's with two array solutions band pass filtering networks plus station automation with two different amps, a really slick SO2R setup and still about the same investment as one 7610.

I'll call B.S. on the total price being equal to a 7610.
I use Array Solutions Filters.  The 6 band filtering banks range from $650 to $975 each.
The cheapest of TWO Amplifiers will set you back another $2,000.
Add some minimal switching/automation that you mention, another $400 on the low end.
So let's see;
                                                                  TOTAL
2x   7300                                                     $2000
2x   Band Pass Filter six-pack unit                  $1300
2x   Amplifier, low cost (AL-80b used)             $2000
1x   Automation, control, switching                 $400
                                                                ========
                                                                   $5,700

Now, with Icom 7610;

1x   Icom 7600                                             $3000
1x   Amplifier, low cost (AL-80b used)             $1000
                                                                ========
                                                                   $4,000

And far less desk space, cabling, etc.
Just sayin'
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