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Author Topic: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?  (Read 5603 times)
W6EM
Member

Posts: 1941




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« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2018, 05:32:30 PM »

And what part 97 certifications does it lack?
- Glenn W9IQ
You have so framed your question to exclude the actual meaning of the Advisory, here is an actual cut from the advisory for clarity:

If a two-way VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported,
advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification.


So...  The UV5RV2 can be operated outside of the Amateur bands, check...  The UV5RV2 does not have certification from the FCC, check...  There is no certification for part 97 radios, so the UV5RV2 is not certified in any way, check...  

Draw your own conclusions..
Yes, draw your own accurate conclusions.  On May 21, 2012, the FCC's Office of Engineering and Technology issued a Type Acceptance for Part 90 application of the Baofeng UV-5R.  FCC ID is ZP5BF-5R

 Here is the link: https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=n%2BgY1ooaqEevhls5IkVd1g%3D%3D&fcc_id=ZP5BF-5R

  You can click on the actual photo of the ID label.  I wasn't able to link to it.

Now, why they agreed to a keyboard frequency entry for Part 90 use is debatable.  Then again, they've done the same thing with the Puxing line as well.

This whole issue is about cheap competition that the major manufacturers like Motorola Solutions, Vertex Standard and Kewood do not like.  Amateur Radio is caught in the crossfire.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 05:42:24 PM by W6EM » Logged
NK7Z
Member

Posts: 2525


WWW

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« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2018, 10:05:30 PM »

And what part 97 certifications does it lack?
- Glenn W9IQ
You have so framed your question to exclude the actual meaning of the Advisory, here is an actual cut from the advisory for clarity:

If a two-way VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported,
advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification.


So...  The UV5RV2 can be operated outside of the Amateur bands, check...  The UV5RV2 does not have certification from the FCC, check...  There is no certification for part 97 radios, so the UV5RV2 is not certified in any way, check...  

Draw your own conclusions..
Yes, draw your own accurate conclusions.  On May 21, 2012, the FCC's Office of Engineering and Technology issued a Type Acceptance for Part 90 application of the Baofeng UV-5R.  FCC ID is ZP5BF-5R

 Here is the link: https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=n%2BgY1ooaqEevhls5IkVd1g%3D%3D&fcc_id=ZP5BF-5R
Note-- my post mentions the UV5RV2, not the UV5R which your link goes to.
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Thanks,
Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
G3RZP
Member

Posts: 1326




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« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2018, 01:45:44 AM »

I wonder if FCC has the resources to go for Amazon etc in the courts for selling such radios......
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KG7CSS
Member

Posts: 126




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« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2018, 12:52:02 PM »

http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-fcc-discussing-issue-of-uncertified-imported-vhf-uhf-transceivers

The AARL is trying to deal with the wording of  the of the Enforcement Advisory.  I agree that while not  legal for others services, in regards to the experimental nature, should be legal for Ham Radio. We have a history  of repurpose  of radio tech like software defined radio applications. Worst what will this mean for experimenting  like making an APRS transceiver using an off the shelf  radios system  on a chip is that can be programmed wide range of frequencies  for other applications ? It should be my responsibility  to ensure  my firmware dose to transmit outside the ham bands. 
I been watching the issue and  have nothing but scorn for  the  let  mouths. Let get this straight you do speak for me  and keep your paws of my Baofeng.  What fools these  mortals be. You  say I can’t buy a cheap  Chinese radio but have to buy a more expensive  Chinese radio. Give be a break.

There are a few concerns,  one is the non amateur  use of the radios. We had to deal  with a fan con  buying baofengs but not aware they were using ham radio bands. Also Radio city an baofeng n fell into the easy money trap. They bought into cheep  radios and not taking account of  regulatory issues.  A simple solution is  importing the radio and change the firmware to only operate  in  the  ham radio bands. and maybe investing  in  ATE test equipment to  program and test the radio  before   putting on the us market.
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AA4PB
Member

Posts: 15067




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« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2018, 01:41:12 PM »

It's the same issue as with linear amplifiers. People were getting their hands on linear amplifiers intended for legal use on amateur radio and using them illegally on CB frequencies. The FCC solution was to require Certification of amplifiers in order to ensure they would not operate on CB frequencies. The result for hams - increased cost of linear amplifiers.

Now there is an issue with people getting their hands on VHF/UHF radios intended for legal use on amateur radio and using them illegally on commercial services where they don't meet technical requirements. The FCC solution is to require certification in order to ensure they meet requirements for all frequencies they will transmit on before it can be imported, sold, or used in the U.S. The result for hams - increased cost of VHF/UHF radios.
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
W6EM
Member

Posts: 1941




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« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2018, 06:49:30 PM »

The real reason is a seriously underfunded FCC with lacking enforcement.  Not enough fear out there, so people buy them and figure they can get away with using them without getting caught.

So we have to pay for the FCC's inability to enforce the Communications Act.

Then again, I bought a lot of high current MosFETs a while back, and the dealer asked me what I was going to do with them.  Never experienced that before.  Amazing world we live in.
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W9IQ
Member

Posts: 3563




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« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2018, 07:16:39 PM »

No doubt that is part of the formula, Lee. But I also think the FCC failed to recognize the rapidly changing technology and marketplace dynamics. A VHF/UHF radio is no longer a significant engineering feat - it is now a couple of chips. And the go to market channel is no longer high margin, protective franchised dealers - it is a website.

Had they foreseen this, they could have put the measures in place several years ago as things started to change. Instead they held onto their weak certification scheme. Now that the users of these cheap radios are starting to interfere with other services, and perhaps the incumbents are grousing, the FCC is compelled to act.

Unfortunately, they are dragging the amateurs into this without any regulations to back up their assertion.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 07:36:03 PM by W9IQ » Logged

- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
G3RZP
Member

Posts: 1326




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« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2018, 02:24:52 AM »

My admittedly little experience in dealing with the FCC professionally is that there aren't enough engineers and far too many lawyers! Added to which is interference in FCC activities from politicians.
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W9IQ
Member

Posts: 3563




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« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2018, 03:25:43 AM »

My admittedly little experience in dealing with the FCC professionally is that there aren't enough engineers and far too many lawyers! Added to which is interference in FCC activities from politicians.

I couldn't agree more, Peter.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
JAZZMAN
Member

Posts: 0




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« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2018, 02:04:26 PM »

That would be silly. Any homebrew rig or kit is capable of transmitting outside the amateur bands and is not certified by the FCC. If the article was true then it could not go on air.

Peter DL8OV

Good point
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VE3WGO
Member

Posts: 451




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« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2018, 09:39:44 AM »

if these cheap radios that refuse to get certification interfere with public safety bands, how would you feel if:

1. your house was burning and the fire department could not hear the address clearly on their mobile channels to respond to you quickly
2. you had a health incident and the paramedics or ambulance could not hear your address clearly on their mobile channels to respond to you quickly
3. your car broke down on a road a night and the towing company could not hear the dispatcher clearly on their mobile channels to respond to your problem at all.

Answers: you would wish that the first responderers were able to help you faster.  You would never know that it was interference to their systems that reduced your resulting quality of life.

Keep the public safety bands clear.  Many of them are not on 800 MHz trunked systems (yet), and won't be until your taxes go up even higher to pay for the transition.  They depend on clear channels.  Uncertified equipment with known emissions problems is not the way to go.

Sure, FCC may have not foreseen the future well enough, but nobody anticipated a group of ham radio transceiver manufacturers with seemingly almost nefarious moral judgement to do such sloppy design with transceiver chips for marginally designed and tested radios that so blatantly skirted the rules either.  

I see many comments on this and other threads saying "well, hams can build their own equipment and nobody checks that, so why the clamp down on cheap imported radios?".  The answer is that your homebrewed equipment DOES have to meet out of band emissions too, and your station needs to have the means to check that.  No free lunch.

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AD8CC
Member

Posts: 25




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« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2018, 01:48:07 PM »

I really don't like this, and it shouldn't stand.  The Commission should not be dictating in any way with what gear a Radio Amateur may or may not otherwise legally transmit with on an Amateur band.  That, to me is one of the central pillars of Amateur radio. 

It's one thing to require certain specifications from commercial manufacturers and sellers of gear, and quite another to require an Amateur operator to purchase/own specifically manufactured gear to operate on the air with.  It's ludicrous.

My home-brewed equipment, to correct the above poster, is not required to meet any sort of out of band emissions, whatsoever.  Until I choose to operate it, it is nothing but a benign pile of dead circuits on a workbench.  I am required, me personally, to ensure that my station does not transmit out of band.  Nothing I own or build, regardless of where it is capable to transmit on the spectrum, intentionally or unintentionally, is (nor ever should be) regulated or banned or illegal, and it is solely up to me, the operator to ensure spectral purity and non-interference of my own station.  This latest action suggests otherwise, that the Commission will now decide what gear, specifically, the Radio Amateur may use on the Amateur bands.  Not so amateur anymore, is it?

This may be a haphazard ploy to ban Chinese handhelds (most likely instigated by manufacturers of more expensive non-Chinese handlelds, who are quite used to controlling the market)  but it's got the potential to set a precedent that none of us want to see to it's fullest. 


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AA4PB
Member

Posts: 15067




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« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2018, 02:28:45 PM »

" it's got the potential to set a precedent that none of us want to see to it's fullest."

The precedent was set back when the FCC started requiring Certification of linear amplifiers used for amateur radio.
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
W9FIB
Member

Posts: 2531




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« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2018, 08:59:43 PM »

I really don't like this, and it shouldn't stand. 

Well I bet you don't homebrew handhelds, and it does need to be regulated due to the sale to non-hams...just like HF amp manufactures were required to have to take out 10 M so non hams wouldn't buy them for the 11 M band. A minor headache in its worst form. And hams had to do a little work. Poor babies...

As a retired firefighter, I really don't want just anybody to be able to transmit on the fire channels as well as any government or commercial channels. Can you imagine 2 people inadvertently talking on the fire dispatch repeater input making it unusable?

So hams have to work a little, like prove they are a ham if a regulation like that is passed, to get these Chinese pieces of junk. (Personally don't have one. My 20 year old Icom dual band HT works fine.) Probably better off with no one using them, rather than anyone using them. Too much interference potential to justify hams having them without any limits or restrictions.
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73, Stan
Wisdom is knowledge you gain after you know it all.
AD8CC
Member

Posts: 25




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« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2018, 02:02:32 AM »

No I haven't home-brewed a handheld.  I don't even use handhelds, but that's not my point.  I don't care if the FCC bans the import of these radios, or if they don't.  The problem here is that the wording of the enforcement advisory states that:

"If a two-way VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported, advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification."
(emphasis added)

So if you have a piece of gear that is even capable of operating out of band, you are prohibited by this wording from using it, even otherwise totally legally within an amateur band, even if operated by a licensed Amateur.  This is similar to stating that if you build an HF amplifier that can be made to operate on 11 meters, that you may not legally operate it on 10 meters, (or 20, 40, 80, etc.)   Show me a transistor that is engineered to amplify a 28MHz signal but nulls out at 27MHz.  

If it said "manufacture for commercial sale" maybe there would not be this issue, but it says "operate."  The Radio Amateur may now not legally operate an amateur station, on an amateur band, in an amateur mode, if his gear can be made to operate out of an amateur frequency band.  

I am willing to bet that your 20-year old Icom can easily be made to transmit on any VHF frequency with the addition of 2 less-than-10 cent diodes, and that anyone with a soldering iron and a google search could have it done in 15 minutes.  It is definitely 'capable' of out of band operation.  Therefore you are now banned from "operating"with it on 2 meters, so let me know when you cease operations and turn it in to the government.

This is the equivalent of the government banning certain firearms you may have had legally in your home for years, on the flimsy excuse that someone else may possibly use the same model of firearm to commit a crime, would you simply nod your head and hand them in, or destroy them?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 02:11:32 AM by AD8CC » Logged
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