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Author Topic: HARA Arena  (Read 3652 times)
W9PMZ
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« on: November 14, 2018, 04:18:27 AM »

There was an interesting story on the history of HARA Arena and its possible future last night on the channel 2 news.
Didn't know this, HARA came from Harold and Ralph Sampler, the owners. The first two letters of their first names.
Then there was the stroll down memory lane of the Dayton Gems, the concerts, the dog shows and a brief mention of the Hamvention.
For me I do remember the dog shows, went there as a scout, going to the Dayton Gems games, ice skating and the back parking lot was a popular place to learn to parallel park and master the clutch.
The story interviewed the new owner and he stated that they were evaluating how the building an be saved and reused.  No mention of for what though.   Perhaps it my reopen for a future Hamvention...
73,
Carl - W9PMZ
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W4KYR
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2018, 06:33:28 AM »

There was an interesting story on the history of HARA Arena and its possible future last night on the channel 2 news.
Didn't know this, HARA came from Harold and Ralph Sampler, the owners. The first two letters of their first names.
Then there was the stroll down memory lane of the Dayton Gems, the concerts, the dog shows and a brief mention of the Hamvention.
For me I do remember the dog shows, went there as a scout, going to the Dayton Gems games, ice skating and the back parking lot was a popular place to learn to parallel park and master the clutch.
The story interviewed the new owner and he stated that they were evaluating how the building an be saved and reused.  No mention of for what though.   Perhaps it my reopen for a future Hamvention...
73,
Carl - W9PMZ


New Life in Trotwood

https://www.wdtn.com/community/i-love-dayton/i-love-dayton-life-coming-back-to-hara-arena/1593793681
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W8JX
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2018, 08:48:07 AM »

I think for HARA site to have any future, it needs to be leveled and rebuilt from ground up including underground plumbing and sewage. To just "patch" fix it would not work long term. Question is if anyone is going to spend that money.
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N9FB
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2018, 06:29:53 AM »

I think for HARA site to have any future, it needs to be leveled and rebuilt from ground up including underground plumbing and sewage. To just "patch" fix it would not work long term. Question is if anyone is going to spend that money.

agreed

In 1960 Dayton was reasonably close to a several of the most populous cities in the United States:

Rank   City   State   Population[22]   Notes
1   New York   New York   7,781,984   First ever population drop for New York City.
2   Chicago   Illinois   3,550,404   First ever population drop for Chicago.
3   Los Angeles   California   2,479,015   Los Angeles overtakes Philadelphia to become the nation's third-largest city.
4   Philadelphia   Pennsylvania   2,002,512   After 60 years as the nation's third-largest city, Philadelphia drops to the fourth spot on the list.
5   Detroit   Michigan   1,670,144   First ever population drop for Detroit.
6   Baltimore   Maryland   939,024   First ever population drop for Baltimore.
7   Houston   Texas   938,219   First appearance in the top 10.
8   Cleveland   Ohio   876,050   
9   Washington   District of Columbia   783,956   First ever population drop for Washington.
10   St. Louis   Missouri   750,026   Last appearance in the top 10.

In 2010 Dayton is much less so:

2010
See also: 2010 United States Census § City rankings
Seven of the country's ten largest cities in 2010 were located in the Sun Belt region of the south and west, all of which have far lower population density than their earlier top-ranking counterparts. A different ranking is evident when considering U.S. metro area populations which count both city and suburban populations.

Rank   City   State   Population[3]   Notes
1   New York   New York   8,175,133   
2   Los Angeles   California   3,792,621   
3   Chicago   Illinois   2,695,598   
4   Houston   Texas   2,099,451   First (and to date, the only) city in Texas to surpass 2 million.
5   Philadelphia   Pennsylvania   1,526,006   First population gain since 1950.
6   Phoenix   Arizona   1,445,632   
7   San Antonio   Texas   1,327,407   San Antonio's rapid growth causes it to overtake Dallas as Texas' second-largest city.
8   San Diego   California   1,307,402   
9   Dallas   Texas   1,197,816   
10   San Jose   California   945,942   First appearance in the top 10.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_populous_cities_in_the_United_States_by_decade

i suspect including metro areas would change the rankings some, but if you are looking to build an arena to host events & national conventions (of all types) what exactly is Dayton's draw today  Huh
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VE3WGO
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2018, 07:55:31 AM »

The closer a site is to one of those huge cities, the more expensive the event has to be in order to pay expenses for facilities, etc, and the harder the driving is.

But a 3 hour drive (~150 mile radius) from Dayton includes over 15 million people....  http://www.statsamerica.org/radius/big.aspx

...not a bad statistic at all.

73, Ed
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N9FB
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2018, 09:39:09 AM »

if you are building an Arena, is it people or large organizations and corporations that you want to be in reasonable proximity to?  Also, night life, accommodations and other nearby entertainment attractions may be important too... where would you rank Dayton in that kind of equation?

and even for ham radio alone, what percentage of US and Canadian hams are within 150 miles of Dayton in 2018 vs 1964?
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W8JX
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2018, 05:08:30 AM »

The landscape has changed since HARA was first built. I think it would be a bad investment to rebuild on current site, If someone is willing to put up money it should be on new ground in a different location. HARA started spiraling down over 25 years ago when they converted some on land to a golf course and reinvested nothing back into HARA complex itself. Word was for many years owners knew it was dying and were taking all the "profit" to support their life styles while it lasted. The end result is it fell behind the times and in needed repairs and updates. You buy HARA now you are basically buying land as the buildings are of little value due to their condition. Plus last I heard the whole HARA complex is still on a single 6 inch sewer line that dates to 60's when first built that collapsed and backed up into flea market several years ago. They fixed the part that collapsed in golf course but never upgraded and replaced the line.
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VE3WGO
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2018, 06:24:03 AM »

on the goggle map it looks like it is surrounded by business and low-rise residential areas.  Probably some developer will buy it, level it, and build yet another housing development.  But it will take a while...  looks like that area is still low density.  Maybe 20 years?

73, Ed
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N2SR
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2018, 09:08:56 AM »

and even for ham radio alone, what percentage of US and Canadian hams are within 150 miles of Dayton in 2018 vs 1964?


It's not about how many hams are within 150 miles of the area. 

It's: how many hams are within a days driving distance from the area.   

Answer: a lot. 
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W8JX
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2018, 11:35:35 AM »

on the goggle map it looks like it is surrounded by business and low-rise residential areas.  Probably some developer will buy it, level it, and build yet another housing development.  But it will take a while...  looks like that area is still low density.  Maybe 20 years?

73, Ed

I agree that if land was cleaned up it would likely be worth more for future housing than a event center
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N2EY
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2018, 12:50:27 PM »

and even for ham radio alone, what percentage of US and Canadian hams are within 150 miles of Dayton in 2018 vs 1964?


It's not about how many hams are within 150 miles of the area.  

It's: how many hams are within a days driving distance from the area.  

Answer: a lot.  


Yes! And even more if the distance is extended to 1-1/2 to 2 days' drive, for those willing to get a hotel room along the way. Probably most hams east of the Rockies.

Here's the bigger issue:

What would the facility be used for the other 51 weeks of the year? As big as Hamvention is, or could be, I doubt it's big enough to even begin to sustain any venue for a whole year.

And as the Xenia site is improved, it may become a non-issue. In fact it's probably a non-issue already.

73 de Jim, N2EY

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N2SR
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2018, 01:50:26 PM »

and even for ham radio alone, what percentage of US and Canadian hams are within 150 miles of Dayton in 2018 vs 1964?


It's not about how many hams are within 150 miles of the area.  

It's: how many hams are within a days driving distance from the area.  

Answer: a lot.  


Yes! And even more if the distance is extended to 1-1/2 to 2 days' drive, for those willing to get a hotel room along the way. Probably most hams east of the Rockies.

Here's the bigger issue:

What would the facility be used for the other 51 weeks of the year? As big as Hamvention is, or could be, I doubt it's big enough to even begin to sustain any venue for a whole year.

And as the Xenia site is improved, it may become a non-issue. In fact it's probably a non-issue already.

73 de Jim, N2EY



Agreed!   I was there this past year (missed 2017 because of work).   While it's a work in progress, the smell is far, far better (especially in the bathrooms!) then the dingy, "let's watch another ceiling tile fall down," bombed cratered flea market, hara arena. 

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N9FB
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2018, 03:38:37 PM »

Quote from: VE3WGO
a 3 hour drive (~150 mile radius) from Dayton includes over 15 million people....

Quote from: N9KX
even for ham radio alone, what percentage of US and Canadian hams are within 150 miles of Dayton in 2018 vs 1964?

Quote from: N2SR
It's not about how many hams are within 150 miles of the area. 
It's: how many hams are within a days driving distance from the area.   
Answer: a lot. 

the context was in whether it would be worthwhile for an entrepreneur to rebuild HARA Arena in Dayton.
In 1964 Dayton was an accessible drive to a far greater percentage of the US population and hams.  So in choosing a site to host a national ham convention, a different location would probably be more value added today for the would-be investor(s).  Of course the site would not make most of its money from hams and the non-ham events too would probably be better situated at a site other than Dayton. To show my math here: in addition to how close in distance the site is for the greatest percentage of the CONUS, accommodations, night life and other local attractions should be a factor and i am doubting Dayton competes well with other potential locations in these areas too. (right?)

As for reality and Xenia -- i think it is a good practical alternative to anything else that has been proposed so far. 
But, if you had all the money in the world to build a new site for a massive national ham convention -- and a local ham club equipped to make the thing happen -- where would you locate it and why?
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W8JX
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2018, 06:55:23 PM »

As for reality and Xenia -- i think it is a good practical alternative to anything else that has been proposed so far. 

In what alternate reality is that? It is like worst possible location around here. It was by far the cheapest though which is driving force for DARA.
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N2SR
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2018, 05:18:58 AM »


the context was in whether it would be worthwhile for an entrepreneur to rebuild HARA Arena in Dayton.
In 1964 Dayton was an accessible drive to a far greater percentage of the US population and hams.  So in choosing a site to host a national ham convention, a different location would probably be more value added today for the would-be investor(s).  Of course the site would not make most of its money from hams and the non-ham events too would probably be better situated at a site other than Dayton. To show my math here: in addition to how close in distance the site is for the greatest percentage of the CONUS, accommodations, night life and other local attractions should be a factor and i am doubting Dayton competes well with other potential locations in these areas too. (right?)

As for reality and Xenia -- i think it is a good practical alternative to anything else that has been proposed so far. 
But, if you had all the money in the world to build a new site for a massive national ham convention -- and a local ham club equipped to make the thing happen -- where would you locate it and why?

The simple answer is, NO.  As N2EY pointed out, what would you do with a building that large the other 51 weekends out of the year?   Dayton already has a convention center, in downtown, and because of the uniqueness of the hamvention, would not really accommodate the hamvention that well.   

IIRC, the Dayton hamfest was not "chosen" as the national ham convention at the start.  It started off as a local hamfest, then became a regional hamfest, and as it became larger and larger, it started attracting more and more people.   Eventually it became ONE OF the national conventions designated by the ARRL.   Then, back maybe 10+ years ago, the ARRL threw some money at dara and designated it as the National Amateur Radio Convention.  That occurred when the ARRL "took over" a large portion of the one of the exhibit halls at hara. 

There is more than accommodations, night life, and other local attractions that bring attendees to the area.   If the vendors do not show up, then the attendees won't show up, and it starts to circle the drain.   While many hams will bring their non-ham spouses, most do not.   That being said, there really isn't much for non-hams to do.  The food in the area is generally pretty good.   Accommodations are generally good, though you have to be careful about some hotels.   

You could move it to NYC, and then expect to pay $50 and up for tickets.  You could move it to Las Vegas, and then expect to pay $50 and up for tickets.  You will also draw less of a crowd to LV, especially from the East Coast, and vice-versa for the West Coast (if it were in NYC).   



So where do YOU want it?   Indianapolis?   
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