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Author Topic: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.  (Read 3961 times)
KA4DPO
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Posts: 1317




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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2019, 07:25:30 AM »

James (KV2T):

FB regarding use of RF gain.  An almost forgotten skill.

With the old Heathkit HR-1680, I'm able to use the RF gain control, AF gain and preselector in combination to pull in just about anything the FTDX-3000 can hear, and completely avoid ear fatigue.  I've had to actually demonstrate this, because a lot of newer hams just don't believe it. Part of this "easy listening" is because the HR-1680 does not seem to have much high frequency (3000-3500 Hz) distortion or signal processing chain noise in its RX.  My old TS-440S (which otherwise is a great rig) is pretty harsh in this respect as is my R75 receiver.  Easy to get ear fatigue.  So I use a CLRdsp unit to tame these radios (or the built-in DSP noise reduction in the R75, which is just so-so)

The FTDX-3000, -1200 and FT-991 on the other hand just have very good sound quality with regard to ear fatigue, noise reduction on or off.  The noise reduction DOES help with random channel noise, and this helps reduce ear fatigue, but this is over and above the out-of-the box pleasing sound of the receiver.  Kind of like my old HW-101.  Had a VFO that liked to "walk around" the dial a bit (lots of drift) but VERY easy to listen to, otherwise.

Brian - K6BRN

I don't think the FT-3000 is even going to be in the same league as the FTDX-101D.  The new rig is supposed to be a replacement for the FT-5000 and the 3000 does not come anywhere close to that radio in performance.  The FT-3000 is an OK radio, but not a great radio, too many issues with birdies and other nuisances in the design not to mention Yaesu's legendary PIA menu system.
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KX2T
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Posts: 1068




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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2019, 10:37:00 AM »

I am sorry you feel that way on the 3000, I had owned that radio for three years, the only birdies it had was the beep sound changing functions nothing on the receiver side on any of the HF bands or HF spectrum at all so please stop trying to BS your fan club here cause your discrediting yourself with making blank statements like that. I had compared the FTDX5000 to my 3000, yes the 5K was better but not by all that much, it could handle a stronger signal off 2Khz away better than the 3K could but then came along the 7300 Icom and that little beast could go toe to toe with the 5K even on CW.
 If you are talking about lab numbers the radio to best is the 890S and Yaesu has nothing to show for what this radio can do, they have not even shown a working rig yet at any of the shows so its still a pretty prototype markup till they have the real goods and then its got to prove itself which they have been know to BS the ham public before with outrageous RX specs.
This comes from an X Yaesu Fan Boy, the Kenwood is a very excellent superhet which is challenging Icom's statement rig the IC7851 but if you want the best superhet with the most advanced DSP engineering the Icom still is ahead of the Kenwood, for some reasons hams's I know who own both say that the Icom does do there NB and ND circuits better than the Kenwood but that comes at a hefty price. But for the price of admission at the $3K mark the 7610 hold very excellent value and everything work well.
Yaesu has a long hard road so I hope they get it right this time.
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KA4DPO
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Posts: 1317




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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2019, 12:38:09 PM »

I am sorry you feel that way on the 3000, I had owned that radio for three years, the only birdies it had was the beep sound changing functions nothing on the receiver side on any of the HF bands or HF spectrum at all so please stop trying to BS your fan club here cause your discrediting yourself with making blank statements like that. I had compared the FTDX5000 to my 3000, yes the 5K was better but not by all that much, it could handle a stronger signal off 2Khz away better than the 3K could but then came along the 7300 Icom and that little beast could go toe to toe with the 5K even on CW.
 If you are talking about lab numbers the radio to best is the 890S and Yaesu has nothing to show for what this radio can do, they have not even shown a working rig yet at any of the shows so its still a pretty prototype markup till they have the real goods and then its got to prove itself which they have been know to BS the ham public before with outrageous RX specs.
This comes from an X Yaesu Fan Boy, the Kenwood is a very excellent superhet which is challenging Icom's statement rig the IC7851 but if you want the best superhet with the most advanced DSP engineering the Icom still is ahead of the Kenwood, for some reasons hams's I know who own both say that the Icom does do there NB and ND circuits better than the Kenwood but that comes at a hefty price. But for the price of admission at the $3K mark the 7610 hold very excellent value and everything work well.
Yaesu has a long hard road so I hope they get it right this time.

The FT-3000 has been shown to have a spurious signal in the display, ostensibly an artifact from the DSP, Yaesu is aware of it.  I'm not making this up, it has been reported on several reflectors.  As for a fan club, I'm not aware that I have one.

All I said was that the new FT-101D is suppose to be the top of the line, state of the art, Hybrid SDR radio.  So if it is better than the FT-5000, it will be way better than the FT-3000, at a hefty price of course, but the FT-5000 wasn't cheap when it came out.

So I see you have an IC-7610, good choice, better than the FT-3000,  and the high frequency crud from the DSP can easily be tamed by using the pass band tuning to roll off the high end a bit. 

By the way, the close spaced dynamic range is the last spec I look at.  You sure seem to be overly sensitive.
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NI8R
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Posts: 323




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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2019, 02:50:49 PM »

Hi to all. Just an observation I've observed by all the various 'fan boys' in the last 55 years as a ham.....
I brought back a new Icom 756PRO from Tokyo, the week it was announced.
Once home and working, I commented somewhere (maybe even here on eHam, it's been a LONG time), how impressed I was with the performance of the Icom's receiver.

I only had about 5 receivers to compare it to at the time, a couple of Drake TRs, R4-B, a R4-C and a recently refurbished 75A-4, and others.

I took a bunch of abuse from the TT fans because the Icom had a "fish finder".

When the TT Orion was announced, the TT guys now proclaimed it was the best invention since the wheel.

I only own one TT, (thank goodness) and would never consider another.  Smiley
To each their own. Enjoy.

ron
N4UE

I asked a question to the tentec user group on yahoo, the answers were blistering. it was related to what other radio would bring them joy other than the tentec model used as the daily. to sum it up , they all wear white t shirts, drive ford escorts color white and eat vanilla ice cream. Nothing by any other brand
or to heck with you. Sold my omni vII immediately.

Greg NI8r
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KX2T
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Posts: 1068




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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2019, 04:38:43 PM »

Clearly unless you have 10 acres in the country with stacked mono band yagi's 3 elements on 40 plus a 4 square on 80 and a pair of phased verticals on 160 all these radio are a huge waste of time if all you have to use is a multiband doublet or OCF dipole cause having all this receiver performance is become mental masturbation in ones own mind, even the radio in which I use is way overkill for my station but I use the two RX sections and the digi select when a local ham gets on down the block.
I never had seen a spur in the display on the 3000 and owned it between  2013 to 2017, never heard a spur in its receiver so just maybe some of these hams who report issues have maybe not did a good RF sniffing around there QTH to find other sources of RFI from WallWart PS, LED lighting with dimmer switches or other sources of birdies coming from circuits in washing machines, dryers and all sorts of things in there home. A good way to check that is bring your car battery inside and run your radio off 12VDC then shut your main service down, I would bet that most of the crap comes from something in the homes but this might be way to technical for some to understand.
We will see if Yaesu can pull the rabbit out of the hat but clearly its taking a really long time to do so besides there radios including the 5000 have had ALC issues since the beginning, they are very sensitive and even if they are slight over driven create lots of IMD on the transmit side so I hope there new radio has been fixed in this regard.
The only thing I find with the Icom newer SDR rigs is they have full audio bandwidth on the receivers audio amp, its is not rolled off like the audio on the 3000 and the 5000 rigs I have used so you have great upper audio range so either runnig the RX EQ at a negative number or use the NR which still maintains a good overall audio response and has no digital audio artifacts unless servery set way too high is an easy way to tame the full bandwidth. They also have lots of sensitivity more so than many radio's on the market without using any pre amp stages.  
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K6BRN
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Posts: 1293




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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2019, 07:23:53 PM »

Hi John:

Quote
The FT-3000 has been shown to have a spurious signal in the display, ostensibly an artifact from the DSP, Yaesu is aware of it.  I'm not making this up, it has been reported on several reflectors.  As for a fan club, I'm not aware that I have one

I'm sitting here laughing so hard my chest hurts!  The FTDX-3000 has a spur, you say?  really?  Just ONE?  That's pretty good.  Most radios, including SDRs have more than a few.  It's all about how much trouble they cause, which is pretty much ZERO on the FTDX-3000.

You've never used an FTDX-3000, have you?  So you really have no clue at all.  You are mostly reading random opinions from forums, going with the flow and making the rest up (firing for effect?)  Always better to think for yourself, BTW.

Is the Yaesu FTDX-3000 a "great radio"?  That's purely subjective.  I like it.  It is a very capable radio that's alot of fun to use, and other than the menu system designed by committee, has very few bad habits, a great receiver and can take a beating on TX without crapping out.  It performs very well and is fun to use.  Lot's of I/O, built-in sound card, etc., etc.

So.. here's what some actual owners say:

FTDX-3000, 4.7/5.0, 159 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/10736

IC-7610, 4.7/5, 72 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/13607

IC-7300, 4.8/5, 311 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/12742

All good radios, all liked by their owners for a host of different reasons.  So... what does "great" mean to you?

Brian - K6BRN

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KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 1317




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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2019, 09:05:55 PM »

Hi John:

Quote
The FT-3000 has been shown to have a spurious signal in the display, ostensibly an artifact from the DSP, Yaesu is aware of it.  I'm not making this up, it has been reported on several reflectors.  As for a fan club, I'm not aware that I have one

I'm sitting here laughing so hard my chest hurts!  The FTDX-3000 has a spur, you say?  really?  Just ONE?  That's pretty good.  Most radios, including SDRs have more than a few.  It's all about how much trouble they cause, which is pretty much ZERO on the FTDX-3000.

You've never used an FTDX-3000, have you?  So you really have no clue at all.  You are mostly reading random opinions from forums, going with the flow and making the rest up (firing for effect?)  Always better to think for yourself, BTW.

Is the Yaesu FTDX-3000 a "great radio"?  That's purely subjective.  I like it.  It is a very capable radio that's alot of fun to use, and other than the menu system designed by committee, has very few bad habits, a great receiver and can take a beating on TX without crapping out.  It performs very well and is fun to use.  Lot's of I/O, built-in sound card, etc., etc.

So.. here's what some actual owners say:

FTDX-3000, 4.7/5.0, 159 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/10736

IC-7610, 4.7/5, 72 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/13607

IC-7300, 4.8/5, 311 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/12742

All good radios, all liked by their owners for a host of different reasons.  So... what does "great" mean to you?

Brian - K6BRN



Sorry if I don't pay much attention to you Brian.  You are what I call a drugstore ham.  You took Bernie's old call sign and upgraded from tech about what,  Three years ago?  Wow, all that experience is just overwhelming.  So what do you know about the 3rd order intercept as it pertains to the radio in question?  Tell me what the IF skirt selectivity is at 6 KHZ.  Most important of all, what is the LO rejection in the first IF stage? 

Your post is clearly the rant of a noob who is trying to give off an odor of OTness. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes   Not happening.

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OH6I
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Posts: 60




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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2019, 11:10:00 PM »

KV2T,

some European Yaesu dealers have Yaesu FTdx101D demo in shop so no just "prototype".

https://www.hamradio.co.uk/amateur-radio-base-station-radio-yaesu-base-station-radio/yaesu/yaesu-ftdx101d-pd-8964.php

Jari
OH6I
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KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 1317




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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2019, 08:23:42 AM »

KV2T,

some European Yaesu dealers have Yaesu FTdx101D demo in shop so no just "prototype".

https://www.hamradio.co.uk/amateur-radio-base-station-radio-yaesu-base-station-radio/yaesu/yaesu-ftdx101d-pd-8964.php

Jari
OH6I

Thanks for posting that Jari.  If the price shown is correct then the price here in the US should be just under $4000.00.  Since they have a 20% VAT tax in the UK, it should come in around $3500.00 plus or minus, here in the US.  That would be an outstanding price for a state of the art radio.
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K6BRN
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Posts: 1293




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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2019, 08:56:01 AM »

Hello again, John (KA4DPO):

Quote
Sorry if I don't pay much attention to you Brian.  You are what I call a drugstore ham.  You took Bernie's old call sign and upgraded from tech about what,  Three years ago?  Wow, all that experience is just overwhelming.  So what do you know about the 3rd order intercept as it pertains to the radio in question?  Tell me what the IF skirt selectivity is at 6 KHZ.  Most important of all, what is the LO rejection in the first IF stage? 

Your post is clearly the rant of a noob who is trying to give off an odor of OTness. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes   Not happening.

Still laughing.  Feel free to hit the "IGNORE" button or whatever it is you do when frustrated.  I don't mind at all.

Looks like you do your research on people just as poorly as you do on radios.  Time to get back on the web and try again.  You're making the poor folks over at Google feel inadequate.

Lets make this simple....  1.  I've been in amateur radio, continuously since about 1991 and intermittently since 1973  A decent interval.  2.  I've been a professional in digital telecommunications for more than 30 years; an engineer with multiple degrees, over a dozen patents (many "producing"), have developed, produced and delivered MANY systems (and you've used them) and held executive positions in the biggest firms in the industry.  3.  This career, as a professional in communications, has provided enough security that I never have to worry about earning a living again.  Nor do my kids (and THAT is a problem).  I maintain multiple QTHs across the USA with an amateur radio station at each.

In short, I'm where you wish you were, because people and firms voted with their wallet to make sure I kept on doing what I do well.  Architecting, designing and leading the development and delivery of indistrial communications systems.  I tried to retire in 2013,  I really did.  But the overwhelming demand and open arms are just too attractive to walk away from.

OK.  Your turn.  More or less.

Now about the FTDX-3000.  The radio you don't like.  Never used it, have you?  I have two, fully (and I mean FULLY) optioned, at two of my QTHs and like them well.  And they compete with many other radios for time,  And usually win.

I have a good friend that loves his Icom IC-7300 and Flex-6600 radios.  He's not poor, either.  And he thinks the Flex is WAY better than the FTDX-3000.  Which happens to resemble the things I develop, more than a little.  He might be right.  But I like the FTDX-3000 for a variety of reasons.  And when I decide to move on, I'll buy a crate of whatever it is I like, next.  Might even be the new FT-101Ds.  We'll see.

You see, when a person works with this stuff professionally, day in and day out for decades and then decides to putter around in whatever spare time remains with an AMATEUR radio, the preference tends to be whatever feels the most comfortable and gets the job done without a fuss or bad behaviors.  And I'm pretty familiar with what that means.  And not too shell-shocked by what the amateur community considers "cutting edge" (it's not).  So, that's what lead to my preferences.

But then again, I actually USE the radios I comment on.  And often take them apart.  And put them back together.  Just to see what choices the designers made.  I have to say, I'm pretty impressed by the cost/performance compromises FLEX has made.  Been deep into the 6600.  But I'm equally impressed with the attention to detail, robustness and preformance Yaesu built into the FTDX-3000.  Not the menus, though.  That was a brain-fart.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN

(Professional) "drugstore ham"  And loving it.
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KA4DPO
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Posts: 1317




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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2019, 10:04:18 AM »


Quote
Still laughing.  Feel free to hit the "IGNORE" button or whatever it is you do when frustrated.  I don't mind at all.

Looks like you do your research on people just as poorly as you do on radios.  Time to get back on the web and try again.  You're making the poor folks over at Google feel inadequate.

Quote
Lets make this simple....  1.  I've been in amateur radio, continuously since about 1991

OK, lets, you were issued a Tech plus in 1990, absolutely nothing before that.  In 2015 you upgraded and took a call that originally was issued to Tom Hahn up in Malibu.

The rest of your post is schoolboy chest beating, the fact that you had to regale me with all of that information tells me a lot about you, it also reinforces my original conclusion.  And FWIW, I'm not the one who is frustrated here. Roll Eyes 
 
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KA4DPO
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2019, 10:07:49 AM »

Back to more important things.  I looks like the FTdx-101D is due to be released in about two months if all goes well.  It will bee interesting to see how it stacks up against the IC-7610 and TS-890S.

As for the Flex 6400M, I don't really see it as a contender.
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K6BRN
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Posts: 1293




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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2019, 12:27:35 PM »

Quote
And FWIW, I'm not the one who is frustrated here. Roll Eye

John:

You mistake arrogance and humor for frustration.   By the way... wasn't 1990.... 29 years ago.  Hmmm.  Well, seems like almost three decades in ham radio, by your metric.  What happened to "three years"?  Is there a ... ranking system, here... by the way?

Nope.  Welcome to the real world.  Must be tough.

Some advice (free):  Actually buy a (new) radio and use it.  It might be fun.

And you are absolutely correct.  On to better things!

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN

(Bye!)
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VE3WGO
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Posts: 445




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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2019, 03:02:34 PM »

....snip ....

But I'm equally impressed with the attention to detail, robustness and preformance Yaesu built into the FTDX-3000.  Not the menus, though.  That was a brain-fart.

...

I wholeheartedly agree!  The rest of the user interface, the appearance, tuning, filtering, noise weaponry, and the audio quality all impressed me in the several times I tried an FTDX-3000, but that menu system? ... no.   I wanted to replace my FT-847 with something newer and better, but those deep and twisted menus on the 3000 made me decide to get the Icom IC-9100.  Now it's true that the 9100's screen is so yesterday and its menus are not perfect either, but they are a lot more tolerable than the 3000's are, and are arranged in 2 easily navigated banks of settable parameters.  Besides, with the 9100 I got VHF/UHF bands and very easy to set up and use duplex satellite functionality as well.

The moral of my story is that performance, price and features are only part of the picture.  Lab equipment can contribute to evaluating those.  But the human interface side, for me and many others, carries a lot of weight in the buying decision too, often more than anything else.

I guess a bake-off of $3000-4000 radios is soon in order.  Tech spec testing and human factors design evaluation would be appropriate.

73, Ed
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K6BRN
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Posts: 1293




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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2019, 09:43:56 PM »

Hi Ed:

FB on the 9100.  If it works for you and feels right, its the best radio.  Which is why there are so many food fights on this topic.  Just love the new ham post that comes up regularly...  "What's the best radio to buy....?"  INCOMING!

I suspect the $3000-$4000 radio shootout will come down to personal preference, too.

I AM interested in the Yaesu approach of 1st IF sampling after traditional down-conversion on their new radio.  Will it be the best of both worlds, the worst or something in between?  We'll see.  But it may take some time.

I recall that Sherwood's list had every specmonger disappointed with the FTDX-3000.  And then users spent some time with the radio (more than normal because of the darn menus) and really liked it.  Hence the very good eham reviews.

So... with the FT101D, we may see something similar.  Neither fish nor fowl, it will take some time after spec pre-judgement before the user community figures out whether this radio is fun, or not.

Just glad to see so many new offerings popping up, with a lot of competitive engineering approaches, after a significant dry spell.  We may be in a solar down-cycle, but to compensate, we also have FT8 and a whole stable of new and interesting radios to look at and play with.

Brian - K6BRN
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