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Author Topic: 2m amplifiers???  (Read 1871 times)
KA4WJA
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Posts: 1098




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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2019, 03:50:25 PM »


This is supposed to be a thread about 2m amps...but, actually, I did mention meteor-scatter....even though it's been 20 years since I worked a ping party, and that was on SSB....(over the years, I'd hear some guys pounding away at 25-30 wpm CW, but I could barely pick out a call, due to the fading...)

And, as for aurora....worked it quite a bit in college (in Massachusetts), but from Florida??? I've only ever seen an aurora once in my life here in Florida... Smiley



Now, as for my opinion about "computer-only" modes....even though I clearly stated that it was just my opinion, and I certainly don't think this is the thread to debate this....please allow me to quote what I wrote earlier, and say I stand by my opinion....  

Now, Gary, I do hope I cleared up the "mystery" of 2m amps??

As for "how much power does it take?"...well, as you can see, for most 2m communications 10 watts to 50 watts is all that is needed...with some needing 100 - 150 watts...
But, only a few (working long-haul tropo-scatter, or some still doing meteor-scatter, or the few doing moonbounce) using CW (or some SSB) have any need at all for any power over that....and as you can see, for moonbounce (CW) there's almost no such thing as "too much power"...  Smiley

{BTW, I personally don't consider computer-only-decoding modes (or computer-to-computer-only modes) to be actual real hams making contact....in my opinion it is computers making contact, not the human.....so, I haven't included any of the "negative signal-to-noise-ratio" / computer modes, like JT-65, JT-9, FT-8, etc., into any of my comments above....just CW, SSB (and FM)....'cuz if a human can't hear it, then a human isn't actually making that contact....just my opinion, so don't shoot me!}


73,
John,  KA4WJA

Others may differ with my opinion, and that is just fine... Smiley

But, to be honest, what got me to actually respond here was the comment that some used to record high-speed CW and play it back, to confirm a contact??

I've never heard of anyone recording high-speed CW and then playing it back at a slower speed, to confirm a contact...
Let alone doing that on EME or meteor-scatter???  (Heck on EME we used CW at about 10wpm....even I can copy 10wpm!!)  Smiley

If you have personal experience doing this, and/or could pass on the details of others that you know have done this, that would be great....seriously, I've never heard of anyone doing this...

(fyi, I do know that some on EME used to record their received signals (although I never did) in order to provide some receive information to those attempting contact and/or testing adjusting their systems....this was particularly true for the big guns who had many smaller stations attempting contact...but, I have never heard of anyone actually doing this to confirm / make a "contact"....and my experience with 2m EME goes back to the 1970's reading the "lunar Letter" and UYH's EME news....it was early 80's that I started building my station, including a DBM transverter, pre-amps, etc...(took me years)....but, in all my years I've never heard of anyone recording and playing back CW, in order to confirm a contact....}

And, as for sending CW....bugs, keyers, etc. have been with us for decades....(bugs, since before I was born), and no issue with them...and even computer-keyed CW is fine, 'cuz it is a human typing....just like RTTY, etc....

Sorry, for the ramblings....but....but, I've just never heard of anyone recording CW and playing it back, in order to confirm a contact....just doesn't seem fair to me...
But, here again, that is just my opinion!!  Smiley


73,
John,  KA4WJA

« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 04:03:18 PM by KA4WJA » Logged
KG9ZTX
Member

Posts: 65




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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2019, 04:56:19 PM »

Thanks everyone I appreciate all the info. I have definitely learned something.

I’ll never do moonbounce or long range communications. But all good information to know what is possible.

I am happy with my mobile units and using repeaters.

Points out how important antennas are more then power in getting a good signal in and out of your radio for the best distance
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AE0Q
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Posts: 106


WWW

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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2019, 08:23:55 PM »

Well, the answer was Bob Southerland, W6SAI (later, W6PO)....Bob worked for Eimac...
And, in the late 60's he designed a vhf amplifier (and a uhf amplifier) using this new tube...

Not to be picky, but Bob was W6UOV, Bill Orr was W6SAI.  I think Bill Orr wrote that article.

I DID read you entire post :-)

Glenn AE0Q
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Glenn and V-NATCH Katie,
HP-O, MXB, MJB, XF, TKI
http://www.hoopsandjumps.com/
http://funagility.webs.com/
KA4WJA
Member

Posts: 1098




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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2019, 04:27:21 AM »

Glenn,
Well, yep, you got me!!

Not sure if it was my memory or whether I was just distracted (I was working while I was on eham yesterday)....but whatever the case, I was wrong!!  Smiley  (how could I not know Bill Orr's call?? Duh!)

So, with egg on my face, I freely admit I was wrong... Sad
And, thanks for correcting me!

73,
John,  KA4WJA
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KA4WJA
Member

Posts: 1098




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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2019, 06:17:36 AM »

Glenn, et al,

Seriously off topic....but..
But, fyi, somewhere in my files I still have my origianl W6PO / Eimac "EME Notes", as well as mimeographs of old talks/seminars on the subject mailed to me (from CSVHFS, I think?)...as well as microfiche copies of articles and papers, from Lew McCoy, Bill Orr, etc.  (that's how I learned a good bit about ham radio, as a kid/teenager)....
Wow, how life has changed...now all you need is Google and an internet connection...

73,
John,  KA4WJA
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K7KBN
Member

Posts: 3681




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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2019, 10:39:32 PM »


{BTW, in college (1981?) myself and classmate built a K2RIW 432mhz amp, for a NE contest station...and we got a big power supply from the EE building, and it ran 800 watts out!!  And, I think it was stil running 20 years later....}


You didn't include a power switch?  Grin Grin Grin
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73
Pat K7KBN
CWO4 USNR Ret.
KB2FCV
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2019, 11:16:31 AM »

I think most repeaters don't have more than 50 or 100w? Maybe less? They are usually on top of a big hill somewhere and they don't want TOO much power so that they interfere with other repeaters on top of big hills on the same frequency.  When I was more active on 2m repeaters I remember that there was another repeater in the next state on the same frequency pair that the repeater I used was on. When the repeater by me wasn't transmitting you could easily pick up the other. I think the two clubs had to work together to ensure signals wouldn't step on eachother and ensure they were using different PL inputs.

As many other stated - moonbouncers and serious VHF'ers run 1KW - 1.5KW on 2m. I have a W6PO design 8877 amp that will put out 1.5KW for 2m that I was running when I was doing moonbounce several years ago. Hoping to get that set back up again one of these days. Fun facet of the hobby to get into (pic of it on my qrz profile)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 11:19:38 AM by KB2FCV » Logged
W9IQ
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Posts: 3388




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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2019, 01:08:15 PM »

I think most repeaters don't have more than 50 or 100w? Maybe less? They are usually on top of a big hill somewhere and they don't want TOO much power so that they interfere with other repeaters on top of big hills on the same frequency.

I think two more common reasons to limit the repeater power are:

1.) To keep the transmit range reasonably within the receive range of the repeater.
2.) To keep the repeater transmitter from desensing the repeater receiver.

The latter is a hard technical boundary while the former is one of use cases.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
W4KVW
Member

Posts: 0




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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2019, 01:29:55 PM »

Quote
Newsflash.  If you want to work meteor scatter, you WILL be working MSK144.  No one tries to work CW or SSB meteor scatter any more.  Thank God.  And while you can make meteor scatter contacts on 6 meter with 100 watts, more is much much better.  I made 25 states on MSK144, but it is all about high gain beam, and amps.  You may not consider it a contact, and you are free to think whatever you like, but IT IS.  I don't have a whole lot of interest in the mode any more as I have worked 48 states on 6 meters, some on MSK144 some on E skip, but I am not going to work Alaska or Hawaii on meteor scatter as it is not possible on that mode.

Besides people used all sorts of electronic methods back when people used to use CW.  They sent CW at super high speeds, and then tried to record it on the recieveing end and slow the tape down. A real Kludge, but I guess it sort of worked.  When MSK144 came along it was a revelation and game changer.  Time marches on, techniques improve. This is called advancing the state of the art.

LOL,You are so WRONG. Many of us still use Phone & CW for meteor Scatter. I do NOT use any digital modes or CW on any band. I only do phone & I generally work several stations using phone when I take the time to work the Meteor Showers on both 2 & 6 Meter SSB. I have never made a digital Meteor Scatter contact in 25 years of being a Ham Operator & never will. Happy I saw your comment so I could put the Correct information out there for anyone who may be interested and like me are Phone operators.  Cool Grin Cheesy Wink

Clayton
W4KVW
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K0UA
Member

Posts: 4575




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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2019, 03:23:59 PM »

Go to ping jockey and see how many hams are working meteor scatter on phone or cw. Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.pingjockey.net/cgi-bin/pingtalk
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73  James K0UA
ARRL Missouri Technical Specialist
W9FIB
Member

Posts: 2503




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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2019, 07:08:49 PM »

I think most repeaters don't have more than 50 or 100w? Maybe less? They are usually on top of a big hill somewhere and they don't want TOO much power so that they interfere with other repeaters on top of big hills on the same frequency.

I think two more common reasons to limit the repeater power are:

1.) To keep the transmit range reasonably within the receive range of the repeater.
2.) To keep the repeater transmitter from desensing the repeater receiver.

The latter is a hard technical boundary while the former is one of use cases.

- Glenn W9IQ

Glen is correct. I am building a new repeater for our club and we capped output power at 40W for the simple reason we would talk farther than we could consistently hear with higher power. And yet we easily cover the geographical area we desire to cover. Yes, having the antenna on a tall tower on a large hill really helps in not needing big power.
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73, Stan
Wisdom is knowledge you gain after you know it all.
W4KVW
Member

Posts: 0




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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2019, 09:14:54 AM »

Go to ping jockey and see how many hams are working meteor scatter on phone or cw. Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.pingjockey.net/cgi-bin/pingtalk

So if we don't post the contacts to a Cluster they did not happen from what you say? I have a QSL Card box with Plenty of Real QSL Cards from many of those contacts that may or may not have been posted to any Cluster. I know it takes a lot more effort & so many today are just pure LAZY & I see it is why modes such as FT8 & other digital modes are so popular. Zero effort required when they can let their computer do everything for them. I'll keep making the contacts with People & NOT computers & making a Real Human Effort & you be LAZY & let your computer make contacts for you. That is the Conclusion that I have drawn.  Tongue  Grin  Cheesy

Clayton
W4KVW
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KM3F
Member

Posts: 909




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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2019, 10:44:54 AM »

More example for repeaters.
Just last evening I tested the range of a new 70cm DMR/Analogue installation from my mobile. The mobile power is 35 wats, the repeater is believed to be at least 50.
I lost the repeater before I got to the county line.
On that same tower was a 2m repeater at 25 watts or less.
The mobile signal was heard quite a bit farther down range.
I used to access it from 70 miles away over mountain terrain.
Big difference.
The requirements are antenna gain, height and at last the same power as the repeater.

The antenna ERP is very important at long distances.
For example consider what the ERP of 50 wats is driving a beam at 10 db real gain.
Bottom line is you have to consider many factors, then put together a station to accomplish that goal.
On the above 70cm test, I was trying to get a feel if it was possible to access tbe70cm repeater from my home location over the mountains but it's a no go even with high beams except those rare times unreliable propagation allows it for a short times.

BTW, my experience on 222 band is that band is nearly the same performance as 2m.

To bad it's not used more.  I have logged nearly 20 repeaters of which only a few have any traffic. A pair of beams do the job.
Good luck.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 10:50:48 AM by KM3F » Logged
K0UA
Member

Posts: 4575




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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2019, 11:19:45 AM »

Go to ping jockey and see how many hams are working meteor scatter on phone or cw. Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.pingjockey.net/cgi-bin/pingtalk

So if we don't post the contacts to a Cluster they did not happen from what you say? I have a QSL Card box with Plenty of Real QSL Cards from many of those contacts that may or may not have been posted to any Cluster. I know it takes a lot more effort & so many today are just pure LAZY & I see it is why modes such as FT8 & other digital modes are so popular. Zero effort required when they can let their computer do everything for them. I'll keep making the contacts with People & NOT computers & making a Real Human Effort & you be LAZY & let your computer make contacts for you. That is the Conclusion that I have drawn.  Tongue  Grin  Cheesy

Clayton
W4KVW

When was the last time you worked an actual meteor scatter contact on phone or cw? I am not talking about Es skip, I am talking about working meteor pings.  Have you ever actually worked ANY meteor scatter? Please describe your operation and equipment.
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73  James K0UA
ARRL Missouri Technical Specialist
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