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Author Topic: Yaesu FTDX3000 vs Yaesu FT-DX3000D  (Read 2715 times)
KI4ENS
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« on: April 03, 2019, 07:03:40 AM »

Just window shopping for a new transceiver and I have noticed some sites list the Yaesu FT-DX3000D while others only list the Yaesu FT-DX3000.  Yaesu lists it as the Yaesu FT DX 3000D model in the brochure but the manual just lists it as Yaesu FT DX 3000.  Is there actually a "D" model?  Or is there just one model?

thanks
KI4ENS
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K6BRN
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2019, 08:07:01 PM »

There is only ONE model:  the FTDX-3000.

Great radio, one of the best buys out there right now, with a ton of I/O options (3 TX antenna ports, RX only antenna port, IF output port, built-in USB sound card port...) and it has everything already built-in for almost anything.

Yet there ARE some fun options to add...

1.  300 Hz ROOFING filter (it already has 600 Hz and 3 KHz roofing filters built-in)
2.  DVS-6 digital voice recorder (optimized for replaying contact info you MAY have missed during a contest of QSO.
3.  MTU-160, MTU80/40, MTU30/20 front-end preselectors - pricey, but nice to have in a contest environment.
4.  Quadra VL-1000 160-6M 1KW amplifier - follows the FTDX-3000 around like a puppy, no tuning needed (but then, so does the KPA-500/-1500)

Brian - K6BRN
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KI4ENS
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2019, 04:27:44 PM »

There is only ONE model:  the FTDX-3000.

Brian - K6BRN

Thanks Brian.  The Gigaparts ad confused me.  The I/O options look fun to play with.  I have a FT897D so not as much I/O.  Still on the fence.

thanks
KI4ENS
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KX2T
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2019, 11:59:56 AM »

You would like the 3000 but having owned both the FTDX3000 and a IC7300 the Icom had much lower phase noise plus ultimate channel selectivity was over 30db better, the Icom noise reduction is better along with a more effective NB, notch on both was very good but easier/faster adjustment on the controls. I know the Icom has a small footprint but a huge hart plus the fish finder(spectrum/waterfall display) is way better on the Icom along with a very intuitive menu system but it does give you less I/O options but that can be worked around. There is absolutely no need to use any of the pre amp stages on the Icom, its very sensitive W/O the pre amp engaged but maybe you may want to use it on weak signal work on 6 meters plus the RF gain control on the SDR Icom acts more like a variable attenuation control on the Icom which is not like the RF gain control on superhet designs. The Yaesu does have more front panel controls which some like better but I very quickly got used to the keep it simple 7300 and the Yaesu does have a CW reader which does work well but on CW the lower phase noise helps to dig out weak CW signals when nearby big signals are near by.
Another radio is the TS590SG which is also in the same mix but more like a between the sheets radio, I also owned there earlier 590S which that and the Yaesu were very close but I myself would stray back to the Icom. Also another radio I had was the original K3, again another good rig but that little Icom was IMHO so much easier to use.
I have seen used FTDX3000 for around $1k mark and the Icom when the mail in factory rebate is applied the cost is around the $1K new.
Funny thing is I used to be a fan boy for Yaesu and after the 7300 that all changed, today I have a 7610 and looking around for a second radio/backup, yes you know it will more than likely be another 7300.
Enjoy whatever you buy. 
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K6BRN
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2019, 12:37:20 PM »

Quote
You would like the 3000 but having owned both the FTDX3000 and a IC7300 the Icom had much lower phase noise plus ultimate channel selectivity was over 30db better, the Icom noise reduction is better along with a more effective NB, notch on both was very good but easier/faster adjustment on the controls

Wow!  You'd think the FTDX-3000 is a real sad-sack.

Hmmm.  My experience with the FTDX-3000 vs. the IC-7300 has been a little different.

The IC-7300 is a very good performer in just about every respect except for its tendancy for the front end to overload (yes, I know it has an RF gain control).  But it's real strength is simplicity - it's easy and intuitive to get the best out of the radio.

The FTDX-3000 is an excellent performer, with a LOT of I/O, ability to easily add preselectors, multiple antennas, external panadapters, 2nd receivers and a whole host of other features.  But it's menu system and use can be pretty obtuse.  So to get the best out of the radio is a real learning experience.  Once there, no problem.  Terrific RX performance and excellent TX on all modes.  I have an RSP-1 and R75 both hooked up to mine, along with MTU preselectors for 160-20M. Effecively a dual-tuner radio with 24 inch panadapter.  Like the preselector on the IC-7610?  I have that (and its continuously variable) too.  Plus the analog front end is less prone to overload.

But I've also helped other operators who were frustrated and thought the filtering was poor, there was no TX power control and a host of other issues.... because they simply did not discover how to use the many, many built-in filtering options, from multiple roofing filters to contour and inverse contour controls to wide and narrow filter range settings and filter slope settings... the list is endless.  In short, learning the FTDX-3000 is a bit of a project.  But once you do, it really sings.  Better than the IC-7300 IMHO.  But the differences are just not that critical.

I've had the same experience with operators who did not discover how to use the many features of the FT-991.  Same problem.

If I was starting out, the IC-7300 would be my hands-down choice.  The IC-7610 is quite nice, too.  The FTDX-3000 is priced much closer to the IC-7300 and has better expandability than the IC-7610.  Plenty of room to grow and experiment.

What we really have... are a lot of good choices.

Brian - K6BRN
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KX2T
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2019, 06:09:51 PM »

When I bought my 3000 it was 2300 dollars not 1300 like today's prices and I am not trying to discredit you but in a real contest (not a huge MM) the front end in both radio's was about the same but on CW the 3000 gets swamped when strong signals near by cause of its average phase noise characteristics. I do not work for Yaesu or Icom but like I said I was a Yaesu fan boy but sorry no longer. You are saying you must add those MU tune boxes to make it sing wow that allot of money right there, maybe something like the array solutions bandpass filter might be cheaper but now your adding that to a 1300 dollar street price on that radio. BTW I owned the 3000 since 2013 till 2017, enough time to realize its good and bad points and I haven't even gotten into its poor ALC circuit design which if not babied can make that radio really wide spectrum wise. When I asked Yaesu about this they said the ALC is designed to make the radio louder, wrong answer. Another issue with both the 3000 and the 5000 is a none stable PA bias circuit so when the current on the pa bias starts to drift the amp changes its class of operation and at times the radio would end up almost 5 to 10khz wide. The little 7300 you can abuse the crap out of it and nothing get it to do anything as far as poor spectrum performance.
Sorry this is not the nineties anymore were a 5Kz wide signal is acceptable, its a different time and Yaesu should try and get down to business of building better radios again, maybe the new FTDX101 might bring some hope.
I have used both the 3000 and the 7300 during a CQWW phone weekend and that is what really got me to change my mind on radio's, yes Brian I do have a few good years in the contest arena.
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K6BRN
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2019, 11:48:44 PM »

Ahhh...

Not criticize, but your radio was broken.  I have two Yaesu FTDX-3000s and neither behaves anything like what you are describing.  Nor did I pay $2400 for them, either.   More like half that. So....  sorry you had a bad experience.  Not sure being a first adopter in this hobby is EVER a good idea.

The MTUs were purchased for about half list, just so I could play with them and reconcile Yaesu claims against user experiences.  When I finally swept them, I understood.  The point is that you can add them if you like, where you don't have that option with the IC-7300.  Not a lot of room to grow with that radio.  But then again, it's pretty good all by itself.  And MUCH stronger in user interface design than the FTDX-3000.

Regarding Fanboy (hood)... not really.  I buy what I like and donate it when I'm done.  I've had quite a few rigs from many brands.  I DO like good engineering, though, and recognize it when I see it.  The FTDX-3000 is well done mechanically and electrically, on both the RF and digital sections.  But then, so is the IC-7300 and FLEX-6600.  Each has a very different design style, inside and out.

Glad to hear you enjoy contesting.  That's what the hobby is all about - having fun.  For me, it's more about socializing, experimenting... and frankly just "doodling" with electronics.  Though I do operate.  I think I have about 10K contacts on the '3000's, across a variety of modes.  Enough to know how they behave.  And both are very consistent.  Not as big a fan of CW as you are, and maybe that's the difference.  Oddly enough, the hard-core CW contesters in the clubs I belong to are not very big fans of the IC-7300.  They're mostly Elecraft fans, now switching to FLEX radios and KPA-1500 amps.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN
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KX2T
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2019, 06:15:19 AM »

Well the K3 boys started in your state but for the life of me you think the 3000 is that good with kind of mediocre phase noise on CW and ultimate channel selectivity around 80db instead of over 100db like the Icom. You place a 20-30db over s 9 CW signal 1Khz away on the 3000 and then on the 7300, the results are the 3000 sounds like your receiving key clicks yet the 7300 will be clean. BTW had my 3000 back at Yaesu they said the radio did meet there specs and could not find anything wrong. I waited till the ARRL lab test on the 3000 before I bought it so your assuming things on that statement. I don't dislike the 3000 but I strongly feel Yaesu could have done better but ever since the Motorola takeover then they sold it back to the original company in Japan they have been of a slippery slope.
BTW I not only did the 7300/3000 comparisons a/b for three months plus I used a signal generator for testing as well, Yaesu work on the 3000 though was far better than the FT2000 which was a complete dog, even the old FT1000MP's would walk all over the 2000.
I also have hams who live about a half mile away so can get a good idea when they are running a kw or more how most RX sections hold up, he runs a Flex 6500 so the spectral purity is very good on that radio and he has seen the differences between the Yaesu and Icom radio on his end as well.
Maybe just maybe you might have not RTFM the manual on the 7300, that RF gain control is not like the ones on your superhet designs and the old overload problem was like an old wives tale on those YouTube videos cause most of those bozos had the pre amp engaged.
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K7JQ
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2019, 06:32:07 AM »

 

Oddly enough, the hard-core CW contesters in the clubs I belong to are not very big fans of the IC-7300.  They're mostly Elecraft fans, now switching to FLEX radios and KPA-1500 amps.



"Oddly"? What's so odd about preferring a radio for "hard-core" CW contesting (K3s) that, tricked out, costs six times more ($5,800) than a ($980) IC-7300  Smiley. Some run SO2R with two expensive radios. And a KPA-1500 ($6,000)? Not to mention their antenna systems. Their sole decision on buying a house is based on the best location for towers and four-squares. These guys are investing really big bucks to try and win, or place high in major contests. A whole different world from the casual ragchewer or DXer. Hardly a fair comparison.

73,  Bob K7JQ

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K6BRN
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2019, 08:55:07 AM »

Bob (K7IQ):

Quote
"Oddly"? What's so odd about preferring a radio for "hard-core" CW contesting (K3s) that, tricked out, costs six times more ($5,800) than a ($980) IC-7300  Smiley

Yes.  It was irony, Bob, or sarcasm if you prefer.

James:

Quote
for the life of me you think the 3000 is that good with kind of mediocre phase noise on CW and ultimate channel selectivity around 80db instead of over 100db like the Icom. You place a 20-30db over s 9 CW signal 1Khz away on the 3000 and then on the 7300, the results are the 3000 sounds like your receiving key clicks yet the 7300 will be clean.

And how's the IMD on TX?  (That's irony, too).  There is really nothing mediocre about the FTDX-3000 in my experience.  (BTW - I presume you had the 300 Hz roofing filter installed if you are a CW enthusiast)  And a great deal of users agree with me.  We could certainly go into in-depth technical analysis of the IC-7300. which is a great little entry level radio, vs. the FTDX-3000, which is mid range.  But it's going to be a moot point.   Sherwood's initial summaries of the FTDX-3000 were based on a few measurments he made, including RMDR and master oscillator phase noise and he was very derogatory - and very wrong, for most users.

FTDX-3000:  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/10736  (4.7 out of 5 rating), vs.
IC-7300:  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/12742 (4.7 out of 5 rating), vs.
IC-7610:  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/13607 (4.7 out of 5 rating)

In fact, W5ZYX, an operator for 60+ years had THIS to say:

Quote
I've been using my new FTdX 3000 for three months and have concluded that its the best ham radio transceiver I've ever owned. Having been licensed more than 60 years, there have been a bunch of them

I suppose you could call the rest of the amateur radio user community idiots (its been done before), but that would be a purely defensive reaction, wouldn't it?  You could say the same about me, this IS AMATEUR radio, after all.  But, I'm also a professional (BSSE/MSEE) in this field with a fully equipped lab, and have been designing systems, particularly digital communications systems for more than three decades (yes, they've really been around THAT long - want to hear some tales?).  So yes - I've actually run tests on the FTDX-3000, and it continues to work fine, everywhere I use it.  The ONLY problem I've EVER experienced is in the obtuseness of the menus.

I'll just observe that you seem to focus most of your operating on CW, a century old mode that, like it or not, is fading in favor of more modern digital modes and even SSB (easier for new users to master) and so you are actually experiencing someting I don't.  MAYBE that's the difference.  Not sure.  Because I don't focus on CW.  So...  For example, swamping.  My QTH#1 is in one of the densest urban areas of Southern California.  The community is... well endowed... so just about every operator around me, some just a few hundred feet away, are running 1KW to 1.5 KW.  When contests are in progress I could practically light a bulb from all of the RF in the air.  And on SSB and digital modes, the FTDX-3000 simply cruises through the mess, the vast array of filters (roofing, bandpass MTU, IF/digital) just doing their job without issue.  So maybe that's the real difference.  With the IC-7300, it's a bit more difficult - this radio's native ADC has limited dynamic range.  AGC action and close attention to RF gain and careful attenuator use is key to being able to operate at all in these conditions.  Hence the "OVERLOAD" indicator.  And operators who Do contest in dense RF environments know this and have reported it online.  Not that it really matters - this is a "corner condition" for most users.  I'm surprised you didn't mention this.  What most owners appreciate is that it's easy to use without RTFM.  Oddly enough, I have.  Because it's really interesting to me to see thechnlogy I've been applying for decades emerge (fially) into amateur radio.

But I get it.  You think the FTDX-3000 is a piece of junk.  That's OK.  I don't and have had great success with it.  Frankly, at the current street price, it's a bargain.  But then, so is the IC-7300 (always its strongest point).

Good debating with you!

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN


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K7JQ
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2019, 10:27:38 AM »

When it comes to reviewing or commenting on a piece of equipment, I always start out by saying "in my opinion", because that's all it is. I also respect other people's opinions. I've never owned any Yaesu radios, so I can't comment on them. But I'm sure they provide decent results for their owners. There's no radio that can claim "one size fits all". Just too many variables in operating preferences and budgets.

Personally, I switched from Kenwood to Icom radios years ago. Celebrating my 60th year as a ham, I'd classify myself as a semi-hard core contester (preferably CW), as antenna restrictions limit my ability to compete with the big boys. My current radio is a IC-7300, which replaced a 7600. The 7300 is absolutely the best radio ever made...just kidding, forgot to say IMO Smiley, but it plays well for me, even in crowded contest band conditions. I have several KW+ contesters near me, and I never experienced an Overload situation. When the radio first came out I remember a member of my contest club (several world-class operators belong) classified the 7300 as a "toy". He operates with two K3's. His opinion, but after using it for a couple of years, I'd have to dispute him on that. I've used a K3 at a M/2 contest station, and I found it to be an ergonomic nightmare. Unless you're totally familiar with it, the controls and menus are confusing as hell to navigate. Just my opinion, but its specs and performance are undeniable. Shouldn't it be for six times the price of a 7300?

But I will say one thing for the 7300...it was a game-changer that completely wrecked the retail and resale value of many upper-tier, more expensive radios.

73, Bob K7JQ










 
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K6BRN
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2019, 12:06:15 PM »

Bob (K7JQ):

You are VERY right.  No one radio or antenna or coax or ... anything, fits all.  We all have our own priorities and opinions.  If it's junk to YOU, or a treasure, that's what it is.  To you.  It's YOUR needs that these products answer.

Quote
But I will say one thing for the 7300...it was a game-changer that completely wrecked the retail and resale value of many upper-tier, more expensive radios.

There is NO doubt that Icom "hit it out of the park" with the IC-7300.  It absolutely redefined the level of performance and ease of use for entry level radios.  So good, in price/performance/ease of use that it DID impact the price of just about every mid-level radio near it.  Not so much the top end, though. (IMHO).  Just look at FLEX.

I really have to chuckle at the online crowd that labels other operators "Appliance Users!" (with a snort) like its a bad name, when a nice, easy, commercially built piece of gear comes along.  Because 99.9999% of then have zero idea of "...what makes the IC-7300" go.  They have no more idea of how it works inside than a washing machine.  And it's a runaway success.  Seems like pretty legitimate enjoyment of the hobby to me.  Or.... they COULD learn to code and synthesize FIR filters and demodulators in VHDL or Verilog, with simulations in MatLab.  Probably not, though.

The IC-7610 has not has nearly as much success, probably because of its initially high cost, now MUCH lower, and some buggy software and FPGA firmware.  It's simply a very good DSP/direct sampling upper/mid-range radio.

The good news is that amateur radio has just begun to scratch the Digital Signal Processing technolgy vein, and there is MUCH more to come.  I'm looking forward to seeing Yaesu's hybrid high IF sampling/DSP radio when it emerges. I've already been inside the FLEX-6600 and am simply blown away by how inexpensively it is constructed.  While the FPGAs inside are NOT cheap, the rest of the constuction takes best advantage of simple isolation methods, a giant, mostly empty case (which helps thermal issues) and digital signal processing's relative immunity to low level noise paths to provide a superb radio at an affordable (to some hams, anyway) price.

This is a genuinely exciting time for technology in amateur radio.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN
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KX2T
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2019, 01:43:08 PM »

Oh her we go Brian I never said the 3000 was a piece of junk I simply said there is better radio's out there, it had taken me a long time before I sold my 3000 but it had taken me by surprise how good the 7300 really was, if I have never bought the 7300 for a backup rig I would still be running my 3K but when I started to compare the performance of the two side by side not on someones RX list I was very amazed how good it was but I get it some just don't like the little radio's. You can go on and on bust in real world crowded bands that little radio plays, the first CQWW phone weekend I had compared the two side by side and there were times that the 3K just could not handle strong signals compared to the 7300, it was not earth shattering but it could be detected.
Yes I had the 300Hz filter and it did improve some what but once the front end got overloaded it was a moot point. There are guys running two 3K like yourself, guys running two 590s radio's and guys who run two 7300's they all work fine but none of these radio's I would place in a big time multi multi, those type of rigs are like the 5000, 7851,7610,7700, Flex 6600,6700,TS890S these boxes are the breakfast of the champions and like Bob said they bought there QTH for radio then all the rest follows. What is funny I had one QTH back in the nineties that I never bought for radio, I bought it cause it was in a good school district but low and behold the woods behind my home used to be owned by Press Wireless so when I bought a 54' crank up and dug the hole I would find remnants of copper while digging, that QTH was better than what I expected for radio, not near the water but it was like having the radio gods blessing the soil.
In regards to the 7610, yes the first batch did have a firmware glitch but that got fixed, then the ADC heat sink issue which was not that big of a deal, the display issue is Icom's Achilles heal of an issue but it does have a DVI output but were told Icom is working on it. I will tell you one thing thought the 7610 is a far better radio placed side by side to a 7300 or 3000, its in the next heap of as far as class of radio's, competes with a loaded K3s for almost half the money, more versatile than the FTDX5000 and will go head to head with the Flex's new offerings, this is not only of my opinion but lost of world class DXers and contesters but as always there is always a new shinny box coming out from someone else.
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K7JQ
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2019, 03:02:49 PM »

Jim (KX2T),

You're right...the big multi-multi's (K3LR, K9CT, W3LPL, etc) all have top tier radios...out to win it all. But depending on skill and decent antennas, a world class operator can still win it all in their class with low cost radios. Case in point, a member of our club, Steve N2IC, uses a pair of TS-590's in SO2R configuration. I'm sure you've heard of him. Big boxes with lots of knobs and buttons won't cut it if the operator doesn't know what he/she is doing.

I've had an opportunity to A/B a 7300 next to a 7610 in different modes...receiver to receiver. To my ears, disregarding "specs", I didn't hear an appreciable difference between the two in regards to sensitivity, DSP selectivity rejection of nearby stations, NB, NR, and notch filters. Transmit wise, pretty much identical. The 7610 did have APF, maybe a little less noise floor, and digital-sel. But the main differences are the extra bells and whistles...2nd receiver, video output, I/O options, external keyboard capability, etc. Probably worth the extra two grand for some, but not to me.

Brian (K6BRN),

I still think the 7300 had an impact on Flex thinking and pricing...a self-contained SDR based radio with knobs, not requiring a computer to properly operate it. Enter the 6400 and 6600 "M" models. IMO, they look like a hastily conceived black box with a Maestro slapped to the front. Don't get me wrong, they're great performing radios, but I think they'd be more expensive if the Icom SDR's weren't around. Gotta be competitive. Kenwood's one-receiver TS-890 is bound to come down more in price if they want to sell quantity.  The jury's out on the Yaesu FTDX101D...we'll see. But yes, new technology is creating some exciting advances.

73 guys,   Bob K7JQ
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K6BRN
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2019, 09:24:28 PM »

Bob (K7JQ):

Quote
I still think the 7300 had an impact on Flex thinking and pricing...a self-contained SDR based radio with knobs, not requiring a computer to properly operate it. Enter the 6400 and 6600 "M" models. IMO, they look like a hastily conceived black box with a Maestro slapped to the front. Don't get me wrong,

You may be right regarding the IC-7300's impact on FLEX.  Hard to ignore all those operators buying so many DSP radios... with knobs and built-in displays.  Just came back from dinner with a very good ham friend who has the FLEX-6600 and also the IC-7300.  He likes both and intends to keep both.  His '6600 is configured with the Maestro front panel and he keeps the main radio box off to the side.  Much better than having the display panel bolted IN to the radio chassis, which is quite large, he thinks.  He also just ran the FT8 operation of the PV ARC's Catalina Island IOTA efforts with the IC-7300.  Easy to pack, easy to use.  They did have some significant interference problems with the FT8 mode, though, even using 60 dB of bandpass filters on separated antennas.  Possibly the shape of things to come as weak signal digital modes are folded into contests and Field Day.  One of the guys is preparing an article on the topic.  It will be interesting to read.  The person writing the article is a top-notch comms engineer I used to work with, so he'll have some good insight.

Yes... the jury certainly IS still out on the FTDX-101D.  It will be interesting to see just what happens during it's first year.

Quote
Oh her we go Brian I never said the 3000 was a piece of junk I simply said there is better radio's out there, it had taken me a long time before I sold my 3000 but it had taken me by surprise how good the 7300 really was, if I have never bought the 7300 for a backup rig I would still be running my 3K but when I started to compare the performance of the two side by side not on someones RX list I was very amazed how good it was but I get it some just don't like the little radio's.

Jim (KX2T):

OK, Jim.  The FTDX-3000 is not a "piece of junk".  Smiley

And of course there is always better radio out there.  The IC-7610 is a very good radio, it's just not the sales hit the IC-7300 was.  Price makes a LOT of difference in the ham community, and that is probably why it did not sell anywhere near as well, despite initial enthusiasm.  The fact that it was not perfect and had a few teething troubles hurt it even more - and no radio is perfect - expectations were a little TOO high perhaps.  We have a lot more to look forward to in DSP radios.  As I said to Bob, we are in some exciting times for tranceiver technology evolution.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN
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