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Author Topic: FTdx-101D Tops Sherwood Chart  (Read 6681 times)
K9IUQ
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Posts: 3015




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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2019, 04:02:33 AM »

Buy whatever you want. I am sure that the Yaesu is a great rig but I don't care what you own. I have never understood why you have a personal vendetta against Flex. This has gone on for years. A normal person would have moved on long ago.

Who said I was normal?  Cheesy Cheesy

I am as normal as the Flexlovers in this thread trying mightily to defend their beloved radios.

WOW did the Flexlovers get stirred up. Especially N8FNR...

Because Stan has no bone to pick with Kenwood and Elecraft, but "runs a mighty and furious anti-Flex Jihad"
like his life depends on it.  

Why bother when Kenwood fans are not rabid and Elecraft fans  could care less. Flex Lovers OTOH have to defend their beloved radios. I think it is written in the Flexradio Code of Honor that Flexers have to sign when they buy a Flex radio.  Wink

I go down to my shack to get away from the hustle and bustle upstairs. I don't want to mix ham radio and other activities.

BINGO, I swear some of these Flex Lovers do remote radio at the Supper Table and in bed at night.  Cheesy

Stan K9IUQ

« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 04:04:46 AM by K9IUQ » Logged
K6BRN
Member

Posts: 1293




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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2019, 08:30:37 AM »

Stan (K9IUQ):

Quote
Who said I was normal?  Cheesy Cheesy

I'll settle for just "Not destructive."

There are "Fanboys" of all sorts of things, from politicians to cars and radios.  Flip the sign bit and you get an "Anti-Fanboy", which is apparently what you are for FlexRadio.  I get it.  So does everyone else.  Message received.

I hope that being an "Anti-Fanboy" pays well,  because otherwise there is "no percentage in it"

It's just a radio, like any other.  So many preferences in life are personal and harmless, whether of not they work for you.  Is it REALLY necessary to bash someone elses preference and belittle them because of it?

Too many losers on the forums already are doing that kind of bullying.  And that's exactly what it is.  The group here seems to understand and know YOUR preferences, and the thread is about the new Yaesu FTDX-101D, anyway, not Flex.

My advice:  Let it go.

Regarding the Yaesu FTDX-101D, it simply moves the IF in a digital signal processing radio one step away from the antenna, from the perspective of the IC-7300/IC-7610/Flex approach.  High IF sampling (9 MHz?).  The FTDX-3000, -1200, FT-991 and many other radios also use DSP systems, but at Low IF, just above audio.

High IF sampling is SOP in higher frequency DSP "radios" and has been for a very long time, in the commercial market.

Each of these blends have the ability to excel.  High IFsampling leverages the dynamic range, often gentler compression effects and lower cost of analog down conversion, especially at higher frequencies, to (relatively) precisely control the center frequency and noise/signal bandwidth the ADC "sees" and dynamic range it has to handle, which allows a great deal of optimization of the ADC through digital  sampling chain.  Lots of advantages, if it's done right.  Seems like Yaesu might have "done it right".

Good to see amateur radio makers are looking at this from all angles.  Competition is GOOD.

Brian - K6BRN
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N0YXB
Member

Posts: 1550




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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2019, 08:51:31 AM »


Good to see amateur radio makers are looking at this from all angles.  Competition is GOOD.

Indeed! We all benefit whether we buy a Flex, or a Yaesu, or an Elecraft, or an Icom, etc...
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K9IUQ
Member

Posts: 3015




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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2019, 11:03:21 AM »

Stan (K9IUQ):
My advice:  Let it go.


The Flex Lovers need to let it go. I KNOW that all I have to do is mention Flexradio in a post and the Flex Lovers come outta the woodwork to defend. Just look at this thread. Pitiful actually that the Flex Lovers are so Rabid about any discussion that does not show their beloved radios to be superior.  I find it hilarious.

My Advice: Don't give advice, especially on  the internet.

Stan K9IUQ
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W4HIJ
Member

Posts: 410




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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2019, 11:39:30 AM »

Just have to say, after my experience with an FT-991, you couldn't pay me to take a Yaesu from you, no matter the specs. When will hams quit drinking the Japanese Kool-Aid? As for Flex, they've priced themselves out of my meager radio budget and I no longer own one although I sure enjoyed them when I did. 1500 had a better receiver than rice boxes costing twice to three times as much. These days I prowl the bands with a little Hobby PCB RS-HFIQ, still with mouse tuning and all.  It's the 21st century, when will hams get over sitting around playing with their "knobs" all day? Wink Cheesy
Michael, W4HIJ
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 11:42:24 AM by W4HIJ » Logged
AC7CW
Member

Posts: 1347




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« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2019, 04:18:53 PM »

Yaesu points the way: Passive filter ahead of the R.F. stage, state of the art mixer[apparently] and dds, and direct sampling of the first I.F. Their offering is at the top of Sherwood's list without sacrificing general coverage, not to forget to mention that op's like the 3D display. Kudos to Yaesu!!
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
ZENKI
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Posts: 1636




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« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2019, 04:19:12 PM »

 Top on the chart for receiver performance and transmitter performance  that has such low phase noise performance you could probably use it as signal general to test other radios.

But what about the transmitter IMD performance. Yaesu does not publish a specifications so that probably means that they ashamed of the figure hence they dont publish it. If there was a transmitter performance chart most of the top rated receiver radios would be on the bottom of this imaginary chart.

Maybe ham radio manufacturers need to refer to far eastern philosophy and start studying some Yin and Yang engineering balance and maybe one day they will realize that the duality of receiver and transmitter design is an indivisible whole whose performance cant be separated. I think think thats  lesson 1  in 1st year communications engineering. I wonder why  some try and make their own engineering  rules by producing radios with rubbish transmitters?

Sherwood needs to produce a transmitter performance chart to give a complete picture. It would not take much effort to include transmitter IMD performance that  covers  IMD products beyond the 9th order that causes much of the splatter we hear today. A simple way to do it is to measure the IMD product at 5,10,15 and 20khz  under voice conditions. Its easy to spot the radios with horrible IMD performance. Many SDR radios have excellent 3rd order IMD but their IMD products are horrible past 5 or 10KHZ spacing.

Yaesu needs to be congratulated for taking receiver performance to levels that most hams will never need. They have almost produced a laboratory grade receiver.  Its great to see that Kenwood and Yaesu have utilized and adopted many of the excellent receiver design techniques by hams such as PA3AKE who did a lot of good  work on producing the ultimate receiver. Lets hope that future work will concentrate on transmitter performance.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 04:21:34 PM by ZENKI » Logged
ZENKI
Member

Posts: 1636




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« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2019, 04:29:16 PM »

With a clean Transmitter and a calibrated S-meter it would have been a perfect radio.

The Japanese dont seem to want to understand the point that the big advantage of the SDR direct sampling platform that producing a radio with a calibrated S-meter  is something that is very easy to do. A good example is the Icom IC7610, I wonder what was so hard to put in 5 lines of code  to make sure that the S-meter was accurate?

Many hams cant seems to comprehend why a calibrated s-meter is so useful today. With direct sampling receivers it would be very easy to measure and quantify  illegal radiated sources and report these with great accuracy. It would easy for manufacturers to define a 9khz EMC filter bandwidth while providing a quasi peak meter in a menu option. These levels could be reported   when used with a suitable active antenna such as a vertical  or loop.  Hams have always been about exploiting what technology has to offer, burying this technology because so  many hams dont understand the science is not good enough reason to do so.

Yaesu points the way: Passive filter ahead of the R.F. stage, state of the art mixer[apparently] and dds, and direct sampling of the first I.F. Their offering is at the top of Sherwood's list without sacrificing general coverage, not to forget to mention that op's like the 3D display. Kudos to Yaesu!!
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AC7CW
Member

Posts: 1347




Ignore
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2019, 04:46:29 PM »

With a clean Transmitter and a calibrated S-meter it would have been a perfect radio.

The Japanese dont seem to want to understand the point that the big advantage of the SDR direct sampling platform that producing a radio with a calibrated S-meter  is something that is very easy to do. A good example is the Icom IC7610, I wonder what was so hard to put in 5 lines of code  to make sure that the S-meter was accurate?

Many hams cant seems to comprehend why a calibrated s-meter is so useful today. With direct sampling receivers it would be very easy to measure and quantify  illegal radiated sources and report these with great accuracy. It would easy for manufacturers to define a 9khz EMC filter bandwidth while providing a quasi peak meter in a menu option. These levels could be reported   when used with a suitable active antenna such as a vertical  or loop.  Hams have always been about exploiting what technology has to offer, burying this technology because so  many hams dont understand the science is not good enough reason to do so.

Yaesu points the way: Passive filter ahead of the R.F. stage, state of the art mixer[apparently] and dds, and direct sampling of the first I.F. Their offering is at the top of Sherwood's list without sacrificing general coverage, not to forget to mention that op's like the 3D display. Kudos to Yaesu!!

My first rig didn't have an S meter. I guess I'd really like to have the Yaesu with no S meter. S meters are distracting. Call me a radio minimalist...
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
K6BRN
Member

Posts: 1293




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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2019, 11:08:33 PM »

Wow!  Almost like stepping into Arkham.

Quote
Pitiful actually that the Flex Lovers are so Rabid about any discussion that does not show their beloved radios to be superior.  I find it hilarious.

Ummm.  Stan... we were talking about the Yaesu FTDX-101D, not FlexRadio, except perhaps as a comparison point.  So, I don't think anyone really cares.

Quote
Yaesu does not publish a specifications so that probably means that they ashamed of the figure hence they dont publish it. If there was a transmitter performance chart most of the top rated receiver radios would be on the bottom of this imaginary chart.

Well, Zenki, you hide your identity behind an alias, and a lot can be read into that, too.  Does THAT mean you're up to something BAD?  Try looking on the bright side for a change.  You just might cheer up.
 
Quote
When will hams quit drinking the Japanese Kool-Aid? As for Flex, they've priced themselves out of my meager radio budget and I no longer own one although I sure enjoyed them when I did. 1500 had a better receiver than rice boxes costing twice to three times as much. These days I prowl the bands with a little Hobby PCB RS-HFIQ, still with mouse tuning and all.  It's the 21st century, when will hams get over sitting around playing with their "knobs" all day

Sorry to hear about the FT-991.  Must have been bad and very disappointing.  But there are a LOT of Japanese radios out there and most work just fine, including my two FT-991s.  I did hear the early ones has a defect that caused the finals to fail.  Does not seem to have happened for quite some time, though.

Brian - K6BRN
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VK3BL
Member

Posts: 1789


WWW

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« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2019, 03:12:42 AM »

Top on the chart for receiver performance and transmitter performance  that has such low phase noise performance you could probably use it as signal general to test other radios.

But what about the transmitter IMD performance. Yaesu does not publish a specifications so that probably means that they ashamed of the figure hence they dont publish it. If there was a transmitter performance chart most of the top rated receiver radios would be on the bottom of this imaginary chart.

Maybe ham radio manufacturers need to refer to far eastern philosophy and start studying some Yin and Yang engineering balance and maybe one day they will realize that the duality of receiver and transmitter design is an indivisible whole whose performance cant be separated. I think think thats  lesson 1  in 1st year communications engineering. I wonder why  some try and make their own engineering  rules by producing radios with rubbish transmitters?

Sherwood needs to produce a transmitter performance chart to give a complete picture. It would not take much effort to include transmitter IMD performance that  covers  IMD products beyond the 9th order that causes much of the splatter we hear today. A simple way to do it is to measure the IMD product at 5,10,15 and 20khz  under voice conditions. Its easy to spot the radios with horrible IMD performance. Many SDR radios have excellent 3rd order IMD but their IMD products are horrible past 5 or 10KHZ spacing.

Yaesu needs to be congratulated for taking receiver performance to levels that most hams will never need. They have almost produced a laboratory grade receiver.  Its great to see that Kenwood and Yaesu have utilized and adopted many of the excellent receiver design techniques by hams such as PA3AKE who did a lot of good  work on producing the ultimate receiver. Lets hope that future work will concentrate on transmitter performance.

I suspect the FTdx101MP 200w version with its 50v VRF150 finals (and hopefully Class A mode) will keep you happy in that regard.

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J.D. Mitchell BA  - VK3BL / XU7AGA - https://www.youtube.com/ratemyradio - Honesty & Integrity
VK6HP
Member

Posts: 525




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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2019, 04:28:39 AM »

We can hope for better things but I see one Yaesu brochure says -31 dB third-order for both the 100W and 200W versions, on 20m.  An asterisk note says "PEP".  Surely they don't mean -31 dB wrt to PEP, or -25 dB wrt to tone? That would be a real disgrace.  (I'll bring my FTDX560 and its sweep tubes out of retirement if that's the case!).

Let's hope the brochure is not reflective of reality.

Anyway, my TS-890S arrives tomorrow so it's strictly academic for me, for the foreseeable future at least.

73, Peter.
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W9IQ
Member

Posts: 3395




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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2019, 05:21:56 AM »

Quote
The Japanese dont seem to want to understand the point that the big advantage of the SDR direct sampling platform that producing a radio with a calibrated S-meter  is something that is very easy to do. A good example is the Icom IC7610, I wonder what was so hard to put in 5 lines of code  to make sure that the S-meter was accurate?

I find it disingenuous for someone to preach about the adherence to standards when the preacher cannot be bothered to follow basic grammatical standards.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

I never make a mistake. I thought I did once but I was wrong.
W4HIJ
Member

Posts: 410




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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2019, 06:06:56 AM »

FT-DX101D...3,995.00 delivered to your door. Japanese radios are great when you get up into that price range. Great receivers, comfortable to listen to. Problem is anything in the 1000 to 2000 dollar range where the receivers are crap. That's the Japanese Kool-Aid. They could produce better RX in the lower price ranges but they don't have too because hams keep buying their crap. "Thank you sir, may I have another" Personally, I've never cared for Icom and hell will freeze over before I buy another Yaesu so that leaves Kenwood which is what I mostly bought back in the day but even they produced some real turkeys like the TS-2000.
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KX2T
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Posts: 1068




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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2019, 06:36:21 AM »

I almost have to agree with Zenki on the IMD issue with Yaesu, back 20 years ago most all rigs had the same IMD performance which was that they all had taken up between 4 to 5 Khz and that back then was clean, these 20 year old radio's stick out like you would not believe in the DX window on 75 meters. Today's radio is a little cleaner like the Flex and Icom SDR types, maybe 3Khz at best and the slide rule goes to the Anan but even the FTDX5000 and 3000 still hearken back to the way most radio's were back 20 years ago. The IMD issue was never Yaesu's finer points, yes you could run class a on some of the bigger rigs but there ALC circuit design was designed to make the radio have more punch at the expense of IMD so unless you babied that control most of these Yaesu rigs could get nasty very fast. With the new radio we have no idea until enough get out on the air but this is one area the newer SDR rigs have a cleaner platform.
I was never taken by the Icom radio's when they first came out with the fish finder, I always thought you were giving up something in the RX side cause your paying for that screen but today the fish finder is a must have it seems but even after the rigs like the ProIII or even the 7600 I was not impressed but along came the 7300 which sells for around $1K with an above average RX and it sounds good well Icom hit there first Home Run. There 7610 was even better which today you have radio's that are SDR designs with knobs, Flex never figured that would be the case until Icom beat there sales figures of the 7300 into there stubborn heads.
I an glad to see Yaesu finally get back in the game though but transmitter IMD will be closely watched on this $4000 box cause most all of these newer rigs have a more than good enough RX but the proof is in a clean TX.
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