Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

donate to eham
   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 2 [3] 4 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Chinese tube manufacturing analysis  (Read 22450 times)
KD8MJR
Member

Posts: 5536




Ignore
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2011, 05:57:58 PM »

I remember seeing a 1990s documentary on Chinese manufacturing and they had some old WWII type lathes in a factory.
Each Lathe was manned by about 5 people including one guy whose sole purpose was to pour oil on the part in the lathe!
The guy would pick up a bucket under the Lathe and replace it with the spent bucket and slowly pour the oil on the metal while the underneath bucket refilled.  Basically they had given the Job of a $30 pump to a person!
I thought back then it was stupid but hey 20 years later and China is doing really well.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 05:59:46 PM by KD8MJR » Logged

“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)
K8AXW
Member

Posts: 7036




Ignore
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2011, 10:07:13 PM »

Tom.... the point I was trying to make was the Chinese DON'T GIVE A DAMN about rather they are building junk!  They're simply playing the political game of "every man has a job."  Rather it's a man pouring oil onto a part in a lathe or whatever. 

Until their government steps in and TELLS them that this practice of building tubes (for example) with the variances as you point out is to be stopped and the QC department (assuming they have one) will check and reject all questionable tubes this practice will continue and we will continue buying their trash.

This is what happened to the Japanese after about 10 years of producing and flooding the US with "Japanese junk!"
Logged

A Pessimist is Never Disappointed!
N2EY
Member

Posts: 5066




Ignore
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2011, 04:27:05 AM »

Tom.... the point I was trying to make was the Chinese DON'T GIVE A DAMN about rather they are building junk! 

How are they to know it's junk if we keep buying it?

They're simply playing the political game of "every man has a job."  Rather it's a man pouring oil onto a part in a lathe or whatever. 

I think they're doing much more.

First, they probably think it's better for everyone to have a job than to have people idle, starving, committing crimes, etc.

Second, they are investing in, developing and building up their industry and training/educating their people. How many Americans don't even know what a lathe is?

Third, they're getting better. The 1990s were 20 years ago, wanna bet that lathe has been replaced?

We could learn some things from them.

Until their government steps in and TELLS them that this practice of building tubes (for example) with the variances as you point out is to be stopped and the QC department (assuming they have one) will check and reject all questionable tubes this practice will continue and we will continue buying their trash.

What if we just stopped buying it? And started making our own stuff here? The whole principle of "free market" capitalism is that The Market decides.
This is what happened to the Japanese after about 10 years of producing and flooding the US with "Japanese junk!"

The Japanese learned their quality processes from an American named Deming. He went to Japan because American industry wouldn't listen to him. The Japanese realized the wisdom of Deming's methods and adopted them.

We could learn some things from the Japanese, too.

73 de Jim, N2EY
Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




Ignore
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2011, 05:22:41 AM »

They silly part of this debate is that some are trying to grade the quality of all Chinese products on the quality of a very low tech 60 plus year old 811 tube design that has very limited demand on a global scale and might net its producers 3 to 5 bucks tops per tube but likely less. Also how many of these cheap and fragile tubes might actually be good leaving factory and be damaged or degraded in shipping? Where it not for China there would be no new tubes of this type.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W8JI
Member

Posts: 9748


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2011, 07:35:17 AM »

Tom.... the point I was trying to make was the Chinese DON'T GIVE A DAMN about rather they are building junk!  They're simply playing the political game of "every man has a job."  Rather it's a man pouring oil onto a part in a lathe or whatever.

You are exactly right. The goal is every man has a job. That is what people in production facilities have directly told me.

This is why, without shipping damage, over 50% of some tube types are bad. No matter how they are tested or operated here, they will have a high mortality rate.

When a USA manufacturer or European manufacturer had a problem, it would be a similar problem across many tubes. Now there are multiple problems, many of which cannot be tested for once the component is sealed inside the glass. We just have to take our lumps and live with it.

73 Tom
Logged
W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




Ignore
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2011, 08:02:02 AM »

Tom.... the point I was trying to make was the Chinese DON'T GIVE A DAMN about rather they are building junk!  They're simply playing the political game of "every man has a job."  Rather it's a man pouring oil onto a part in a lathe or whatever.

You are exactly right. The goal is every man has a job. That is what people in production facilities have directly told me.

This is why, without shipping damage, over 50% of some tube types are bad. No matter how they are tested or operated here, they will have a high mortality rate.

When a USA manufacturer or European manufacturer had a problem, it would be a similar problem across many tubes. Now there are multiple problems, many of which cannot be tested for once the component is sealed inside the glass. We just have to take our lumps and live with it.

73 Tom

Exactly how much time and energy do you think China is going to put into making a a obsolete cheap tube? Not much. They are going to focus more on new state of art stuff not 50's technology. You really should stop complaining because even if say 50% are bad, that is a lot better than 100% good but none to be had anywhere due to lack of production. US gave up on those tubes long ago because there is no profit or long term future in them
Logged

--------------------------------------
Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
K8AXW
Member

Posts: 7036




Ignore
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2011, 09:22:12 AM »

JX:  You do have a valid point.  I have no idea how many tubes RF Parts ships but it would have to be a substantial number.  If there wasn't a market for tubes I doubt if there would be a Chinese factory making them.  China is in a manufacturing revival.  For centuries they have be low on the totem pole but now they are building and making everything.  And they are ignoring air, water and ground pollution to do it. They're bottom line is SELL, SELL, SELL!

While it's true that tubes are "50s technology" it must be remembered that the 50s technology created a unbelievably huge market and their use will continue until solid state devices, for the most part, replaces them.  That won't be for at least 10 years from now...perhaps even 20 years.

We can't do much if anything about it except complain in hopes that one day someone in that place will say.... ENOUGH!  It's time we start using the term "Chinese Junk" every time we can.  A bitching mouth will wear down anyone.

Logged

A Pessimist is Never Disappointed!
W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




Ignore
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2011, 10:04:39 AM »

RF parts may indeed sell many such tubes but that amount is very very minor in the scheme of things and diminishing. Nobody but Ameritron is going to build a HF amp for sale based on old and weak 811 and likely same with 572b. (though 572's do see some usage in some new high power analog audio amps). There is no future in investing more money into the production of higher quality 811 tubes. None at all. Perhaps if someone wanted to pay China to build better tubes they would but then they would cost even more for a very dated and limited design and quicken their demise.  811 tubes are on life support and complain enough and they could cut their losses and make none at all.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
AA4HA
Member

Posts: 2630




Ignore
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2011, 10:12:24 AM »

Of course this overlooks that the largest user of high power tubes is in the medical field with MRI machines. That is many times the market size of making tubes for amateur radio amplifiers.
Logged

Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama
W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




Ignore
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2011, 10:15:34 AM »

Of course this overlooks that the largest user of high power tubes is in the medical field with MRI machines. That is many times the market size of making tubes for amateur radio amplifiers.

Yes but they do not use 811's, 572's 3-500z's and so on. Nor is tube cost a problem for them either.
Logged

--------------------------------------
Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
K0BG
Member

Posts: 10248


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2011, 11:33:18 AM »

I'm sure some products are just the same as it used to be, a few years after WWII, when Made In Japan was a nasty phrase. That is no longer the case.

About 3 years ago, I purchased a surface mount rework station from SRA. It replaced a two year old, US made one from Weller (the transformer had failed, and no parts available). It doesn't look quite as slick, but operational wise, you wouldn't notice the difference, except for the fact, it holds temperature much better. The handle is also more comfortable to hang on to. It cost less than 1/2 what the Weller cost. Makes you wonder what the future holds for Made In China!
Logged

W4VR
Member

Posts: 1214


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2011, 12:44:17 PM »

Well, I've had my share of problems with Eimac tubes.  From 3-500Z shorts to bad filament welds in their 3CX series.  I sent every tube back to Eimac over the years and they always confirmed it was a manufacturng problem.  They replaced all the tubes I sent back.  Don't know a thing about tubes made in China, but from the comments in this thread it appears they are more reliable than the Eimac version.
Logged
K8AXW
Member

Posts: 7036




Ignore
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2011, 10:21:02 AM »

Now that we have so many opinions of Chinese tubes, what happened to the Russian tube manufacturing?  Before the Chinese got into the tube building business, it seems that I recall the Russians were "top dog" in this field.

I've done quite a bit of reading on Russian manufacturing and the problems they had/have.  However, it's been several years since I've heard anymore about them.  Has their work philosophy changed any the past decade or are they still producing stuff with little regard to the quality of their products?
Logged

A Pessimist is Never Disappointed!
W8JX
Member

Posts: 13268




Ignore
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2011, 11:20:21 AM »

In past Russia made some great tubes but after fall of Communism and then building a new economy they kinda priced themselves out of business and could not compete with China on costs.  Also they likely recognize the it is a dying market especially for low end non medical tubes and further investment was unwise. 
Logged

--------------------------------------
Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
W8JI
Member

Posts: 9748


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2011, 11:21:03 AM »

Well, I've had my share of problems with Eimac tubes.  From 3-500Z shorts to bad filament welds in their 3CX series.  I sent every tube back to Eimac over the years and they always confirmed it was a manufacturng problem.  They replaced all the tubes I sent back.  Don't know a thing about tubes made in China, but from the comments in this thread it appears they are more reliable than the Eimac version.


The Chinese have never come close to the quality of Eimac except perhaps on the recent 8877 tubes.
Logged
Pages: Prev 1 2 [3] 4 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!