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Author Topic: Background Radiation - Could It Be a Vexation ?  (Read 41573 times)
AG6K
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« Reply #105 on: November 01, 2011, 09:34:05 AM »

Quote
G3RZP
RE: Background Radiation - Could It Be a Vexation ?
« Reply #104 on: Today at 09:07:10 AM »
   
Reply with quoteQuote
So we have a very small current that now manages to get enough energy to turn the tube on and produce an arc?

  The tube does not arc Peter, the tube briefly conducts. The pulse of I rings the VHF-resonant circuit between the anode-C and the Tune-C producing a damped wave VHF signal that gets fed back to the input and amplified provided that the tube has sufficient VHF-gain.  Sometimes fireworks ensue - but Not inside the electron tube.   
Rich, ag6k

Quote
Sorry, Rich, this is mere fantasy. The evidence just doesn't hold up.
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G3RZP
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« Reply #106 on: November 01, 2011, 12:33:36 PM »

But Rich, you started with the tube cut off. So how does it have gain? The few electrons aren't enough of a current pulse so it NEVER turns on.

Which is why I say this theory is no better than fantasy.
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AG6K
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« Reply #107 on: November 01, 2011, 03:42:28 PM »

Quote
G3RZP

RE: Background Radiation - Could It Be a Vexation ?
« Reply #106 on: Today at 12:33:36 PM »
   
Reply with quoteQuote
But Rich, you started with the tube cut off. So how does it have gain?

  by I-flow.

 
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The few electrons aren't enough of a current pulse so it NEVER turns on

  How do you know how many electrons were liberated by high energy photons colliding with atoms inside the tube Peter ?

.
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Which is why I say this theory is no better than fantasy.

  If it's undiluted fantasy why do 3-500Zs and 3-400Zs often prove have bent filament helicies after a big bang, and why do parasitic suppressor resistors change value by several x after a big bang - and without showing any sign of overheating?
Rich, ag6k
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M0HCN
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« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2011, 04:10:29 PM »

Rich, what are the voltage ratings on those anti parasitic resistors?

Having a resistor go high when hit with a voltage transient many times its rating is not exactly unheard of,  and for that matter, these things usually have maximum pulse energy ratings that may have little to do with bulk thermal effects. Look at all the bleeder resistors that turn out to be open all too often for another example of the effect of exceeding resistor voltage ratings.

Bent filament structures sound like magnetic fields to me, which I would read as a tube solidly into conduction (Think gassy), not the sort of thing a few e- (which is all you are going to get from a gamma photon) could cause. 

A sufficiently fast glitch event can produce LOTS of dI/dT which means lots of volts across those resistors, no surprise they suffer, this is not normal operation, and lots of amps flowing in the electrode structure will produce significant magnetic forces that I could entirely see bending electrode structures.

If YOU want to propose an extraordinary mechanism for something, it behoves YOU to show that the math works, which so far you have singularly failed to do. Just an orders of magnitude calculation would do.

Regards, Dan.
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W7SMJ
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« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2011, 04:12:57 PM »

AG6K, why not borrow an x-ray machine and bombard your amp of choice while it is idle?  Would that not prove or disprove your theory?

73,
Scott
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AG6K
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« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2011, 10:00:07 PM »

Quote
W7SMJ

RE: Background Radiation - Could It Be a Vexation ?
« Reply #109 on: Today at 04:12:57 PM »
   
AG6K, why not borrow an x-ray machine and bombard your amp of choice while it is idle?  Would that not prove or disprove your theory?

73,
Scott

  An x-ray machine may or may not do an encore Scott since I have no idea of what type of high-energy radiation caused the 4-1000A amplifier in Idaho to conduct and have the event.  If it was a gamma-ray that caused current-flow, then an x-ray machine will not prove anything.  If it was a cosmic-ray that caused the 4-1000A to conduct, then renting a gamma-ray generator would be $$ in the crapper. 
  I don't need to play the blame game with skeptics because, after such events,  I have tested enough kaput VHF parasitic suppressor resistors, and I have autopsied enough filament to grid shorted 3-400Zs and 3-500Zs with bent filament helices to realize that something out of the ordinary is happening here.
  The present evidence:  The surviving 4-1000A is healthy, not gassy -- but something caused it to suddenly conduct and tank voltages to temporarily run amok.
   During the Grate Parasitics Debate Mr. Rauch insisted that the reason the tubes from amplifiers that made out of the blue big-bangs subsequently exhibited no signs of being gassy was because the hot filament getters the gas before the amplifier can be shut down and the high-pot tester is fired up.  When I mentioned that the gettering agent is on the anode and not on the filament, it didn't seem to matter. Also, the electric alarm bell in the evacuated bell-jar experiment doesn't matter and the sudden, large change in R-supp doesn't matter either.
cheers Scott
Rich, ag6k
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AG6K
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« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2011, 10:52:03 PM »

Quote
2E0CHE
   
RE: Background Radiation - Could It Be a Vexation ?
« Reply #108 on: Today at 04:10:29 PM »
   
Reply with quoteQuote
Rich, what are the voltage ratings on those anti parasitic resistors?

  There is no V-rating on such resistors, they have a max dissipation in watts rating at 70ºC. 

Quote
Having a resistor go high when hit with a voltage transient many times its rating is not exactly unheard of,

   Correct Dan and I'm pretty sure too much V zaps the R-supps.  However, R-supps are typically paralleled by 0.001 to 0.002 ohms of coiled Cu wire which has an L of 60 to 100 nanoHenrys.- and that should tell us that the potential that torpedoed R-supp was not DC or HF - but VHF.

 
Quote
and for that matter, these things usually have maximum pulse energy ratings that may have little to do with bulk thermal effects. Look at all the bleeder resistors that turn out to be open all too often for another example of the effect of exceeding resistor voltage ratings.

Bent filament structures sound like magnetic fields to me, which I would read as a tube solidly into conduction (Think gassy),

  I agree on electro-magnetism being responsible for pushing hot filament helices sideways to the flow of current. However, tubes that exhibit filament to grid shorts when the filament is hot usually have no unusual amount of leakage-I when 2x the rated max anode-V is subsequently applied with a high-potential tester. 

Quote
not the sort of thing a few e- (which is all you are going to get from a gamma photon) could cause.

  how did you count the # of  gamma-ray photons that struck the 4-1000A in Idaho ?

Quote
A sufficiently fast glitch event can produce LOTS of dI/dT which means lots of volts across those resistors,


  but only if the paralleled  .001 to 0.002 ohm  L-supp is removed.

Quote
no surprise they suffer, this is not normal operation, and lots of amps flowing in the electrode structure will produce significant magnetic forces that I could entirely see bending electrode structures.

If YOU want to propose an extraordinary mechanism for something, it behoves YOU to show that the math works, which so far you have singularly failed to do. Just an orders of magnitude calculation would do.

Regards, Dan.

  Math is only possible when we know all of the numbers at the instant of the big-bang, and we do not.  so we go with the circumstantial evidence.   However, for those groupies who believe that an electric alarm bell can be heard without attenuation in an evacuated bell-jar, no evidence can ever suffice. 
cheers Dan
Rich, ag6k
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W8JI
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« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2011, 01:40:44 AM »

This is an example how the ARRL and others get into trouble by printing or passing along technical gibberish or fantasia.

Not only is the photon instigated arc stuff all nonsense, and the parasitic damage stuff nonsense, now we have the force on filaments.

If you run the math on the filament, using the SATURATED plate current emission limits of the tubes, you will see the force on the filament is in the order of a few grams! Without an exceptionally hard arc of hundreds of amperes caused by gas, forces are negligable. Even with gas, bending from magnetic force is unlikely. 

All of this stuff is just far fetched fantasy designed to sell nichrome suppressors. Everything and everywhere this stuff comes up, masses of people point out all the flaws. Every single bit of the fantasy stuff is designed to sell nichrome kits, the cure for every single failure.

When the ARRL sent out the author's Handbook article and his other articles to dozens of people who were experts in various areas, every single reviewer (both inside and outside the Amateur fraternity) came back saying it was nonsense. Not one single response was positive.

73 Tom
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 01:44:50 AM by W8JI » Logged
AG6K
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« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2011, 06:18:55 AM »

Quote
  Tom Rauch W8JI:  This is an example how the ARRL and others get into trouble by printing or passing along technical gibberish or fantasia.

Not only is the photon instigated arc stuff all nonsense, and the parasitic damage stuff nonsense, now we have the force on filaments.

  After the 2nd of the three articles on VHF parasitic oscillation was published in QST Magazine, Mr. Rauch telephoned me to discuss the subject.  During the course of our conversation he stated that he had been involved in repairing 400 Heath SB-220 amplifiers and that many of them had damage from VHF parasitic oscillations.  .  .  What goes around comes around.
Rich, ag6k
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AG6K
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« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2011, 09:26:28 AM »

Quote
Tom Rauch, W8JI: ... ... ... When the ARRL sent out the author's Handbook article and his other articles to dozens of people who were experts in various areas, every single reviewer (both inside and outside the Amateur fraternity) came back saying it was nonsense. Not one single response was positive.

73 Tom

  the "nonsense":
http://www.somis.org/D-amplifiers1.html
http://www.somis.org/D-amplifiers2.html
http://www.somis.org/D-amplifiers3.html
http://www.somis.org/D-amplifiers4.html
Rich, ag6k
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KF7CG
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« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2011, 10:29:08 AM »

Having worked with x-ray analysis equipment, I nkoe that it takes at least 1kev of energy to remove one electron from aluminum and appoximately 50 kev for copper and silver. With no avalanche media to be triggered by stray radiation it would take quite a few energetic particles to generate anything that looked like a current.

I do not wish to speculate on effects this is just a good data point around which to work. Also, add to this that typical particle to ejected electron efficiency is less than 10%.

KF7CG
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KB8E
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« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2011, 11:11:58 AM »

Ah yes, the thread that never ends! Actually, this thread is disturbing to me. The original poster asked a question and solicited a variety of responses. However, he then argued with the respondents and the subject seemed to change to something like pulse-excited VHF oscillations in linear HF amplifiers, something the poster seems to feel strongly about. I have to conclude that the author had no intention of actually considering responses to the original post, just provoke an argument. I'm guessing that he has a particular person in mind and wants to argue with that person and all those who agree with him. Forums should be about the open exchange of information and ideas, not a place to pick a fight with the forum ‘experts’. Sure the ‘experts’ may be wrong, at least some of the time, but in my reading of their posts, I have to say that they should be taken very seriously. I've seen some good analytical physics and electrical engineering ideas posted by the experts and in addition, one should not dismiss the writings of a person who is the go-to guy in the amplifier industry.

Intelligent people can disagree, but some of the writings here border on pseudoscience. Kind of like the guy who claims that sidebands aren't necessary to carry information.

Sam
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KM3F
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« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2011, 05:20:34 PM »

AMEN Sam,
Thought this a long time ago.
Advise not to even respond to such pervokeings becaue there is no ending to it unless everybody just stops.
The next time such a throught pervokeing subject is posted' let it alone.
If such a radiation permotes an out of control action, a lot of gas filled tubes would be fireing but they don't.
When was the last time you saw a NEON sign flashing when the anode voltage was below the ignition point?
I have built gas filled noise sources for microwave use in space shots. They don't fire in space just because there is Cosmic radiation.

Ken.
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AG6K
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« Reply #118 on: November 02, 2011, 05:20:51 PM »

Quote
KB8E
   
RE: Background Radiation - Could It Be a Vexation ?
« Reply #116 on: Today at 11:11:58 AM »

Ah yes, the thread that never ends! Actually, this thread is disturbing to me.

  You have company.  The idea that things unseen, unsmelt and unfelt can affect our lives is disturbing.  However, since high-energy photons can change DNA sequences they are the major source of genetic mutations.  

Quote
The original poster asked a question and solicited a variety of responses. However, he then argued with the respondents and the subject seemed to change to something like pulse-excited VHF oscillations in linear HF amplifiers, something the poster seems to feel strongly about.

  Damped wave ringing is an integral part of parasitic oscillation since it is the seed that sprouts into the phenomenon.  

Quote
I have to conclude that the author had no intention of actually considering responses to the original post, just provoke an argument.

  Correct.  I have seen enough evidence on my Geiger-counter and in the analysis of damaged amplifiers that sustained an event on Standby to convince me that such a thing is not impossible.   However, I came to this conclusion only after the 3 articles on parasites were published in QST.

Quote
I'm guessing that he has a particular person in mind and wants to argue with that person and all those who agree with him.


  If you are talking about one of our recognized experts and his faithful groupies, he is almost as defiant as Ramses the Great and  he will likely never agree with me on even the day of the week.

Quote
Forums should be about the open exchange of information and ideas, not a place to pick a fight with the forum ‘experts’. Sure the ‘experts’ may be wrong, at least some of the time, but in my reading of their posts, I have to say that they should be taken very seriously. I've seen some good analytical physics and electrical engineering ideas posted by the experts and in addition, one should not dismiss the writings of a person who is the go-to guy in the amplifier industry.

  One prominent "expert" certainly gets some things right, but he also professes things that aren't.  Example:
Do you see anything questionable about the statement that Ni-Cr alloy conductors exhibit reverse
RF skin-effect?  How about dipmeters give false information?
[/quote]
Quote
Intelligent people can disagree, but some of the writings here border on pseudoscience. Kind of like the guy who claims that sidebands aren't necessary to carry information.

Sam
[/quote]
  A-Zero emissions carriy the info that the operator is somewhat retarded - yet there are no sidebands Sam.  cheers
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N4MPM
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« Reply #119 on: November 03, 2011, 01:45:31 AM »

The Pig is happy.  Keep wrestling!  Nothing stands in the way of true love. Roll Eyes
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