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Author Topic: Tired of the same OLD 599 macro PSK or RTTY QSO?  (Read 23183 times)
STAYVERTICAL
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Posts: 874




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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2011, 02:45:23 PM »

An algorithm could certainly be written which identifies the mode to some degree of probability.
But since many modes use similar tone signaling schemes but unique data compression and decoding methods -
the problem is that you need to decode it to tell what it is - a chicken and egg situation.

The problem is not insoluble of course, but it is infinitely more simple and standardised to have a preamble or
post-amble short burst of tones which identify the mode.
RSID is an elegant and workable solution which adds almost no overhead but gives a quick indication of mode.

Like most good ideas - simple is best.

73s

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W0BTU
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2011, 03:36:58 PM »

An algorithm could certainly be written which identifies the mode to some degree of probability.

Well, bring it on! :-)

Quote
RSID is an elegant and workable solution which adds almost no overhead but gives a quick indication of mode.

The problem is RSID is that it's off by default, and I seldom see a signal with it turned on.

I see what you're saying, and I didn't know those details. But ANYTHING is better than the status quo.
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STAYVERTICAL
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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2011, 02:35:22 PM »

Hi Mike,

Yes, you are right about RSID either not being turned on or not supported in many programs.
I think that will change as more people discover how good Olivia and many other digital modes
are in communicating under poor conditions.
I am sure authors of digimode programs will eventually incorporate RSID into their creations,
but at the moment many hams use digimode programs which don't offer this support.

Currently, DM780, FLdigi and Multipsk support RSID (I use DM780) and it is amazing how easy
to identify modes it is with these programs. The other day I called CQ with HELL mode and had
a very enjoyable intercontinental qso on this quirky mode, so its like the chicken and egg
situation - the more people who use RSID, the more it will be supported and used.

Good luck and 73s

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WB8ROL
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Posts: 19




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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2011, 08:13:19 PM »

All too often I read "OLIVIA" is too slow.  People, OLIVIA can be run in settings that make it fast.  There are different parameters one can set.  For accuracy, 8/500 or higher is run.  For speed, bring the tones and bandwidth down, try 4/250.

It's an accuracy vs. speed tradeoff.  You will often find the faster settings (lower numbered paramaters) are still way more accurate than psk all other factors the same.

I like CONTESTIA because it is faster to decode and moves faster.  Try 4/125!  CONTESTIA 4/125 is FAST and not much wider than psk and MUCH more accurate in not so great conditions.  The only problem with 4/125 is that RSID does not support it.  So call CQ in a slower setting then ask the operator to move over and have a great ragchew!

Gary, thanks for you great QST article a while back on OLIVIA and exposing the masses to that great Mode!




Obviously there are a lot of folks who don't like Olivia for various reason BUT this post was NOT just about Olivia.  While it is my favorite mode, there is contestia which is twice as fast and still gets thru better than PSK and RTTY all day long.  And if your obsessed with speed use MT-63 500hz or 1000hz and find those 2 other guys out there that like to type at 100wpm.  And it still gets thru better than PSk any day or nite.

And the list goes on and on.  Frankly, I can't think of many modes that are as poor as PSK and RTTY for ANY digital QSO's - just because they are popular doesn't mean they are that good. 

But if you enjoy PSK this POSTING WAS NOT FOR YOU.  READ THE SUBJECT LINE - Its for those who are tired of the same old macro QSO's and might want to have real chats.  Those of you who like PSK/RTTY and think it's great, more power to you!  This posting is for those who find it lacking.

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WB5BL
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2011, 10:09:46 AM »

The problem with having the program auto-detect the mode is that it has to try all the possible decoders on the signal. Some signals you just can't guess at. For example, both Olivia and Contestia use the same modulation but then use different interleave factors and different alphabets. So it is virtually impossible to tell the two signals apart without actually going through the decoding process.

And as for Olivia being slow, that all depends on what you are doing. By choosing the olivia mode you can select the speed and the ability to demodulate weak signals. 16/500 is about the most sensitive but is also pretty slow (about 19WPM). By switching from 16/500 to 8/500 you reduce from 4 bits-per-symbol to 3-bits-per-symbol but you double the symbol rate. This results in a 50% increase in throughput at the expense of requiring about 1.5dB more signal for the same quality of copy.

Contestia and Olivia are very similar but Contestia uses a much smaller alphabet and can get the same text through with fewer bits resulting in higher throughput. The only problem is that the interleave factor for Contestia is shorter resulting is poorer copy under QSB fades.

So rather than saying, "Olivia is slow," learn how to adjust the mode to match the conditions. If the signal is really weak, use 16/500. If the signal is stronger move up to 8/500 or even 4/500.

Also consider trying other modes, like DominoEX/FEC or Thor. Incremental shift keying (ISK) used in DominoEX and Thor is more robust than the m-ary FSK modes (Olivia, MFSK16, Contestia) under multipath and doppler errors found on NVIS paths.

You need to understand what the ionosphere does to the signal in order to be able to select the best mode possible for a given set of conditions.

73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL
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KB6HOH
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Posts: 189




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« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2011, 12:11:36 AM »

Hey Gary WB8ROL!

        De Steve KB6HOH out here in the Bay Area. Glad to see you in the Fourms.
Have been looking for you on 30m. Will keep on trying. Last contact per FLdigi Logbook says it was in May but I think we have talked since then. I saw you one day but could not get a response from you. Something like a week or 2 ago.

                               73 de Steve KB6HOH
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WB5BL
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« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2011, 10:38:42 AM »

so its like the chicken and egg situation - the more people who use RSID, the more it will be supported and used.

Yes. We should all make a point of enabling and using RSID as a general rule. I know I do.

73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL
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W8JX
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Posts: 13268




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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2011, 11:10:31 AM »

so its like the chicken and egg situation - the more people who use RSID, the more it will be supported and used.

Yes. We should all make a point of enabling and using RSID as a general rule. I know I do.

73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL


I use it regularly in non PSK modes like Olivia and Domino and such because of different flavors of those protocols.
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--------------------------------------
Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
WA8JXM
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Posts: 51




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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2011, 02:48:57 PM »

Well I've come to the conclusion that the slow typists like the short QSO/macro contacts.  It's also good for those who do not speak English....and don't want to.  Yes, I've come to the conclusion that's maybe why DX stations never chat, even on CW.

Typical Olivia is not only slow on a word for word basis, but also has long turn over times.   OTOH, it's great for getting up, letting the dog out, getting a snack, checking email, ....   

I miss the old digital modes where you could actually break in and carry on a two way, interlaced conversation!

FWIW, I find 20m PSK to be the worst for the hello/599/73 contacts (oh, did I forget that he included the subversion of his operating system and the serial number of his Signalink and how many gigabytes on the harddrive?) 

I prefer 40 and 30m because I can find real ragchews on those bands, sometimes even on PSK.   I'm looking forward to better conditions on 80 and 160!   OTOH, there are no set frequencies for non PSK digital modes and those close to 7035 and 7071 are usually full of QRM from CW or SSB stations.

Mostly I look for Contestia and Domino contacts and call CQ in those modes. 

RSID is only good if you catch the beginning of the CQ.   Perhaps we have too many digital modes.  Too often the station quits calling before I can find the mode. 

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KX5JT
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Posts: 217




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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2011, 12:51:07 AM »

"
RSID is only good if you catch the beginning of the CQ.   Perhaps we have too many digital modes.  Too often the station quits calling before I can find the mode. 

"

Actually, in DM780, you can place an RSID button on top of the tx window and when it's depressed, it will RSID every transmission, in the modes that support it of course.  I don't think
a lot of people know this, they simply use the variable in the CQ macros instead.  If you dig around
these programs you will find a lot of useful things that aren't obvious at first.

John KX5jT
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ZS1SA
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Posts: 3




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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2012, 07:44:26 AM »

I have got around the macro qso problem simply by calling CQ QSO. I have used it often when I wanted a real chat and other than for I stations, it usually seems to work fine. Must be a language problem I'm sure. Wink
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KB6HOH
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Posts: 189




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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2012, 03:07:25 PM »

Hey Gary,

Wow! Here I run into you again. Great QSO last night on Olivia 8/250. 7 months is to long between QSO's.
PSK31 would have been impossible with Band conditions as they were. I agree with you regarding the RSID.
For me the Digital Modes is about the only thing I can run that doesn't upset the XYL. My talking to others on Voice can cause a lot of problems, so letting my Fingers do the talking works for me. I will usually start off working a Station on PSK31 and once I make contact I try to get them to move off Freq and change to Olivia 8/500 or lower. Sometimes they will and others they wont. I have actually had stations tell me they have never used that mode before even tho they have the ability to do so.
Once I explain it really is NO different then running PSK31 they will end up making their 1st Olivia contact and I'm always glad to be someones first contact! Even as long as I have been on Digital,  Modes like DominoEX , Contestia and even Olivia I always don't pickup on the Sound or the visual on the Waterfall so having an RSID Burst helps out immensely. If you don't like seeing an RSID Window popup then simply turn it off. I have my RSID set to show for about 5 to 10secs before it closes. In FLdigi you can select which Modes you can receive an RSID burst from. One last note here and that is being on the right Sideband. I can't tell you how many ops I have seen on LSB instead of USB. If I find someone that I can't Decode and I am sure I have the right mode selected I will use the Reverse Button and see if I can pull them out. Also for you new users out here DON'T use the TX RSID on Modes like PSK31. The RSID Burst is wider than the Operating Mode and could cause interference to those users right next door to your Sig. Beside most Ops can already ID an PSK31 Signal on RX.
Anyway for Rag Chewing under poor Band Conditions you just cant beat Olivia.

                                      73 de Steve KB6HOH
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KD8NGE
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Posts: 41




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« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2012, 07:32:00 AM »

Another n00b and I had a delightful QSO two nights ago! Compared observations on antennas, shared experiences with tuners and agreed that we each suffered the distressing combination of large hands and small keyboards. Talked things over like we were old friends and had a great time!
I've also encountered a number of "macro QSOs" ... but am still n00b enough to be learning from every contact.
Comments in another area mentioned over-lengthy macros.
When I get home I'll take a long look at mine and see what I can pare out.
As usual -- the free wheeling discussion of a thread is educational -- I learn not only from QSOs on-air but also by the posts found here, and for this education, my thanks!   Grin
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