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Author Topic: Selling "airtime" on ham radio  (Read 199974 times)
N2EY
Member

Posts: 5063




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« Reply #120 on: October 22, 2018, 04:48:21 PM »

The original intent of DXCC was to make it a real challenge and achieving the award was something to cherish and be proud of. It was not meant to be for everyone and signified an elite status level.

Where do you get that idea, Carl?

I did some research, and from what I read, there was never any intent that DXCC was "not meant to be for everyone" nor that it "signified an elite status level". Rather it was simply a challenge to be met.

The original DXCC, announced in 1937, would list the calls in QST of anyone who submitted 75 or more confirmations. Achieving 100 would get the certificate. Originally, the confirmations had to be QSLs or the written equivalent, but after a time, ARRL began allowing contacts logged in the ARRL DX contest if both stations submitted logs and the log entries matched.

After WW2, DXCC was restarted with some rather complicated rules about pre-war vs. post-war credits. By the end of 1950, just four years after V-J Day, more than 1000 post-war DXCC certificates had been issued. Considering how few hams there were then, it seems odd to claim it was "not meant to be for everyone" or involved "an elite status level".

And....how about this: In 1958, KN4RID, who was a teenager at the time, was awarded DXCC #3717. He had 125 worked and 115 countries confirmed as a Novice. That was back when the Novice license was only good for a year, the Novice bands were small parts of 80, 40 and 15, and the Novice power limit was 75 watts input and crystal controlled. (Almost all of his countries were on 15, where he had a 3 element beam. His rx was a 75A-4.....)

If a new Novice could make DXCC with such a modest setup in less than a year, why wasn't DXCC "watered down" back then?

Now it is so watered down it means nothing yet some now want to use a pay as you go remote super station or multiple ones and not even have to own a radio.

Sure. But, for many years, a ham could use borrowed stations and do the same thing, right? All the remote thing does is to avoid the need to travel and to know someone who will lend a station.

It was bad enough when contacts from all continental 48 states were permitted. I had to start over 5 times when the 25 mile rule was in effect for decades.

What "25 mile rule", Carl?

Originally, DXCC Rule 9 required that all QSOs be made from the same country, and, if the country had call districts, from the same call district. Which meant that a ham who moved from, say, Camden NJ to Philadelphia PA, which is just across the river, had to start DXCC all over again, but a ham who moved from southeastern Arizona to northwestern Washington, a distance of 1500+ miles, did not. Lots of other examples.

By 1948, Rule 9 had been changed so that there was an exception: If a ham moved across call district lines but the move was less than 150 miles, s/he did not have to start DXCC all over again.

I'm not sure exactly when Rule 9 was changed to "all within the same country", but the old rule was in place in 1967 and gone by 1988.

I can find absolutely no evidence of a "25 mile rule".

DXCC is now worthless IMO unless major changes are made TO RAISE THE BAR.

So....if a ham with a 100 watt rig, a simple wire or vertical antenna, makes DXCC without using remotes, it's "worthless"? Why?

These days, even at the sun spot low, someone with 100W and HOA restrictions can work 100+ in a good contest weekend on CW and maybe two contests on SSB; it isnt hard.

Have you done it, Carl?

Have you actually worked 100+ countries on a good contest weekend on CW, with a basic 100W rig and an HOA-restricted antenna, from a typical urban or suburban postage-stamp lot? You say "it isn't hard" - but, have you actually done it?

With the new Digital DXCC it can probably be done with 10W in 6 months or less with an indoor antenna since there is no FT8 contest....yet.

Have you done it, Carl?

Have you actually worked 100+ countries on FT8 in 6 months with 10 watts and an indoor antenna in a typical urban or suburban antenna-restricted location full of the usual RF noisemakers? You say "it can probably be done" - but, have you actually done it?

I reached Honor Roll Phone and CW level years ago, 9B DXCC (no award available) with an amp was nothing hard except I have better than average antennas for 160....the 5BDXCC award is for 80-10 only, any modes, plus there are individual band awards.

That's great!

For a personal challenge only I made 9BDXCC with a QRP 5W, on CW and 160 took 30 years but only about 10 really pushing it once I gave it a go. Im up to 19 on 160 with 100 milliwatts. A goodly part of all that was with a 1934 National FB XA receiver and a 1940 Meissner Signal Shifter VFO that I restored.

Prior to that I worked 118 DXCC, confirmed 100+ with a homebrew push pull pair of WW2 surplus 211A/VT-4's in a self excited oscillator, aka Yooper at around 90W. It took months to get it to sound respectable and 2 1/2 years to get the QSL's mostly via the ARRL bureau.

But....what did you use for antennas?

You speak of "raising the bar" - what would you change?

Would you ban LoTW because it makes confirmations so much easier, faster and cheaper?

Would you forbid the use of modern rigs? At what level should the technology be stopped?

Would you ban the use of spotting networks and such? Go back to the times when the only way to know who was on was to listen, listen, listen, or have a buddy phone you?

Would you go back to the old 1000 watt power limit? Ban the use of big antennas? Not allow guest operation of stations not owned by the operator?

Or what?

And.....why? Why are you so intent on devaluing the accomplishments of others?

Or are you just trolling for a reaction?

Jim, N2EY



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KM1H
Member

Posts: 5087




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« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2018, 01:20:38 PM »

Jimmy, get lost until you have actually made DXCC and can actually make an intelligent post about its history.

A top author had a good line in a best seller:

Quote
Were you like this as a little boy (insert name) or did you just turn into a fungus during your adulthood?
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 5063




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« Reply #122 on: October 25, 2018, 01:07:07 PM »

Jimmy, get lost until you have actually made DXCC and can actually make an intelligent post about its history.

Carl, who are you addressing?

It can't be me, because my previous post was both accurate and on-topic about DXCC. There never was a "25 mile rule", for example.

Whether or not I have DXCC does not change the accuracy nor relevance of my post. And....you have stated that DXCC is "worthless", so by your own words it makes no difference.

Plus....how do you know I don't have 100, 200, or even 300 DXCC entities, and just haven't applied for DXCC?

I suspect that the real issue is that you don't want to give anyone who disagrees with you any credit or respect. Because you behave the same way towards anyone who disagrees with you.

Why?

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KM1H
Member

Posts: 5087




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« Reply #123 on: October 25, 2018, 07:04:11 PM »

Go TROLL somewhere else Jimmy, youre one of very few I have no respect for and that is only when you sound off in OCS, Oppositional Conversational Style which is explained via a simple Google.

And after about 20-25 years Im tired of the constant attacks and Im sure so are many others who have suffered on here and elsewhere.

Try sticking to what you are competent at and get professional help for your affliction.

At least QRZ had the sense to give you a good public spanking a few days ago which appears to have finally SHUT YOU UP and OCS mode appears to have stopped.  I hope it happens here also.
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 5063




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« Reply #124 on: October 26, 2018, 10:08:50 AM »

Go TROLL somewhere else Jimmy, youre one of very few I have no respect for and that is only when you sound off in OCS, Oppositional Conversational Style which is explained via a simple Google.

Carl,

Who are you addressing?

If you mean me, I go by Jim. Not "Jimmy". Your use of diminutives as a way of putting others down is very immature.

I am not trolling. I do not have "OCS". I simply state facts and opinions, in open discussion forums. For some reason that really bothers you.

Why?

And after about 20-25 years Im tired of the constant attacks and Im sure so are many others who have suffered on here and elsewhere.

Yes, Carl, many of us are tired of your constant attacks, insults, put-downs, and rude behavior.

No one is "attacking" you, Carl. Not in reality, anyway. The problem is that you consider anyone who doesn't agree with you to be "attacking" you.

Try sticking to what you are competent at and get professional help for your affliction.

At least QRZ had the sense to give you a good public spanking a few days ago which appears to have finally SHUT YOU UP and OCS mode appears to have stopped.  I hope it happens here also.

You mention "a good public spanking". Do you mean this post:

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/jack-andersons-1970s-era-ham-vs-cb-editorial.630616/page-17#post-4836299

??

If so....note that it was addressed to YOU as well. If I was "spanked" - so were YOU.

And I have not "SHUT UP" on any forum, Carl. Not at all.

----

What is it you REALLY want, Carl?

It appears to me, and to many others, that what you really want is to be able to write whatever you want, in any forum, and never have anyone disagree with you, question you, or prove you wrong. We should all sit at your feet and take every word as pure wisdom from Mr. H, who has been everywhere, done everything, and knows all that is worth knowing.

Anything less, and you consider it to be a personal attack, insult, etc. How DARE anyone not agree?

Your behavior is very uniform and very predictable. All anyone has to do to get you angry at them is to question or disagree with anything you write. Still worse is if they bring solid facts, references and sound reasoning to a discussion, and in so doing, prove you wrong. Worst of all is if they persist and are not intimidated by you.

It's not just me, either - you behave that way towards ANYONE who does the above. Particularly those you consider "inferior" for whatever reason....not being licensed a long time, not having done something or other, whatever.

You accuse others of the very behaviors you demonstrate.

Consider that others don't have to agree with you in order for them to be deserving of respect.

Consider that you don't have to put others down to build yourself up.

Consider that if someone disagrees with you, questions you, and/or proves you to be wrong, they are not "attacking" you.

Consider that others will respect you more, not less, if you behave like a mature adult rather than a spoiled child who MUST have his own way.

Most of all, consider that there are some folks you just can't intimidate with your bluster and immature behavior - and that they see what's really going on.

Jim, N2EY
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KX2T
Member

Posts: 1041




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« Reply #125 on: October 29, 2018, 09:02:21 AM »

Hi Jim, some here on E ham just want to beat there chest and really don't give a crap about anyone's opinions, these fellows have been like this for years but there is one thing you can do and that is ignore there post and in time they just go away cause many have them ignored to begin with. In time they will realize this and hopefully go away, its really not worth your time feeding into there BS.
The ignore button goes a long way!
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KOP
Member

Posts: 345




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« Reply #126 on: November 02, 2018, 08:48:44 AM »

its really not worth your time feeding into there BS.
The ignore button goes a long way!

Pointing at no one in particular. I have a far better developed ignore button than is available here or with an RF gain, Big knob, squelch, whatever of any kind. Ignorance is not bliss, it is ignorance.

[SARC] Back to topic [/SARC]

...I read the word "repellent" earlier with respect to renting air time. In reading various incarnations of the dreaded Amateur Radio Parity Act threads, remote operation was regularly cited as an option for HOA and CC&R restricted amateurs. Repellent?

So just what is the cash outlay for a remote station? The towers, the antennas, the radios, the internet connection, the time.
What about the property ? Then real time monitoring.

The costs are not minimal.

Offsetting the costs of initial outlay, operation and maintenance, not to mention depreciation, property taxes (if solely for the purpose of a station) doesn't seem to me to be "repellent" .

I do have some issues with remote operation. DXCC that includes remote operation. Most know me to NOT be a paper chaser so find this odd.
What is the difference between for profit and reasonable compensation? It will be different for different situations.
What other options would a HOA or CC&R restricted amateur have? If restricted to a draconian "if no other option exists interpretation" how would anyone administer or enforce eligibility? 

I don't use remotes for anything but experimentation. I don't provide remote for any but experimentation. I really don't have a dog in this fight. I do have questions. I have few answers.   
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I considered a microwave oven magnetron and a 4' dish as a drone-killer. The ERP would be on the order of a hundred thousand watts or so. ~anon

November 28, 2018, 09:16:04 AM
KX2T
Member

Posts: 1041




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« Reply #127 on: December 31, 2018, 04:46:41 PM »

Great we really have gotten the internet trolls out now, someone who goes by KOP, no call sign so you must have no amateur radio ticket either, you just have to love these forums here cause now we have guys chiming in that don't even have a call or have no balls to give it!
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N9FB
Member

Posts: 2362




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« Reply #128 on: January 16, 2019, 03:56:37 PM »

how about this: In 1958, KN4RID, who was a teenager at the time, was awarded DXCC #3717. He had 125 worked and 115 countries confirmed as a Novice. That was back when the Novice license was only good for a year, the Novice bands were small parts of 80, 40 and 15, and the Novice power limit was 75 watts input and crystal controlled. (Almost all of his countries were on 15, where he had a 3 element beam. His rx was a 75A-4.....)

If a new Novice could make DXCC with such a modest setup in less than a year, why wasn't DXCC "watered down" back then?

the title of this thread caught my attention but i read the passage quoted above and i would like to use it as a segway to a less contentious question:

from what i have heard, 1958 was the mother of all solar peaks for ham radio operators.  i have heard lore of 10 meters being open 24-7 for months and even 6 meters being open 24 hours a day at times.   i would love to find anyone here who can confirm that first or even secondhand...  anyone out there able to share some perspective of prop in 1958? 

as for DXCC -- clearly it is a much easier award for a European to obtain than a person living in the Pacific due to proximity of entities.  but 1958, (if the lore is correct) may have been the great equalizer with the muf being so high for such a long time then...
one thing is certain, it is relatively easier to obtain DXCC today thanks to LoTW, the internet, improvements in radio technology, and online spotting.  But it has always been attainable for the masses, provided they are willing to invest the requisite BIC* time and could afford the QSLing

* butt in chair
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AC7CW
Member

Posts: leet




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« Reply #129 on: January 17, 2019, 10:31:28 AM »

I knew a teenaged novice that attained DXCC on 15 meters in 1958-59. His dad had a nice rig and a beam on top of the house.
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
N1CX
Member

Posts: 169




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« Reply #130 on: January 17, 2019, 10:33:53 AM »

Not licensed in 1958, not even born but I can show you hundreds of cards from the last 40 years of JA on 10m barefoot with a tribander at no higher than 40'. Bands were open round the clock for quite a while in previous cycles. I recently went through all my cards updating my internal dxcc count and was actually shocked at how many times I had worked JA on 10 in those days. 15 was my favorite band back then and saw well over a half shoebox filled with JA cards from contesting. Nowadays I keep my hexbeam aimed north and listen on 20 and 15 in early evening knowing the bands do some funky stuff with great openings to that part of the world. Masa JE1LET was on 20 last night working VP2MA etc and was easily workable barefoot from the east coast. So yea I could see 10 being open round the clock like that considering some of the band condx seen in prev sunspot cycles.

how about this: In 1958, KN4RID, who was a teenager at the time, was awarded DXCC #3717. He had 125 worked and 115 countries confirmed as a Novice. That was back when the Novice license was only good for a year, the Novice bands were small parts of 80, 40 and 15, and the Novice power limit was 75 watts input and crystal controlled. (Almost all of his countries were on 15, where he had a 3 element beam. His rx was a 75A-4.....)

If a new Novice could make DXCC with such a modest setup in less than a year, why wasn't DXCC "watered down" back then?

the title of this thread caught my attention but i read the passage quoted above and i would like to use it as a segway to a less contentious question:

from what i have heard, 1958 was the mother of all solar peaks for ham radio operators.  i have heard lore of 10 meters being open 24-7 for months and even 6 meters being open 24 hours a day at times.   i would love to find anyone here who can confirm that first or even secondhand...  anyone out there able to share some perspective of prop in 1958? 

as for DXCC -- clearly it is a much easier award for a European to obtain than a person living in the Pacific due to proximity of entities.  but 1958, (if the lore is correct) may have been the great equalizer with the muf being so high for such a long time then...
one thing is certain, it is relatively easier to obtain DXCC today thanks to LoTW, the internet, improvements in radio technology, and online spotting.  But it has always been attainable for the masses, provided they are willing to invest the requisite BIC* time and could afford the QSLing

* butt in chair
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N9FB
Member

Posts: 2362




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« Reply #131 on: February 05, 2019, 02:23:19 PM »

Not licensed in 1958, not even born but I can show you hundreds of cards from the last 40 years of JA on 10m barefoot with a tribander at no higher than 40'. Bands were open round the clock for quite a while in previous cycles. I recently went through all my cards updating my internal dxcc count and was actually shocked at how many times I had worked JA on 10 in those days. 15 was my favorite band back then and saw well over a half shoebox filled with JA cards from contesting. Nowadays I keep my hexbeam aimed north and listen on 20 and 15 in early evening knowing the bands do some funky stuff with great openings to that part of the world. Masa JE1LET was on 20 last night working VP2MA etc and was easily workable barefoot from the east coast. So yea I could see 10 being open round the clock like that considering some of the band condx seen in prev sunspot cycles.

yeah, i dont find 20m nighttime prop or  even 15m hard to relate to -- but i was specifically curious about 10 meters being open all night long for months in a row (as i hear it was in 1958), which i have never seen.  (i have never even seen 10 meters open after midnight local time for a single night, but then again i seldom bother trying...)
I have over 145 entities LoTW confirmed on 10 meters with 100 watts and a wire up 40 ft since 2010 from here in 9-land, so i know it is *not* as much a question of power or antenna -- but rather of prop.
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K6BRN
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Posts: 1268




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« Reply #132 on: March 15, 2019, 04:44:31 PM »

Hmmmm.  A few comments (and no beatings)...

First, DXCC.  Success is a matter of (time on air) x (propagation luck) x (station capability) x (operating skill).  Calendar time to get DXCC is 1-(that formula).  Make any one of the factors a big number and calendar time is reduced.  Sooo...

1.  If you are unemployed, of modest means and station and have tons of time on your hands, it can happen more quickly
2.  Or if you have a top-notch station, run 1500 watts on FT8 and have reasonable propagation.
3.  Etc, etc.

I have a club friend (CW addict, actually) who tried out FT8, managed DXCC in less than two months and had a blast.  When I asked him how much power he ran, the reply was "1500 watts out of the highest gain antenna I have.  Why run less?".  And he's a VERY experienced contester with boatloads of certificates. It made his day.  Excellent.  Hobby really worked out for him.  BTW, he's a top-notch comms engineer who is careful an courteous to boot.  I don't live very far away aand was NEVER bothered by his trnasmissions.

Want to try for that performance with 100 mW and a wire?  No problem.  It's your challenge to yourself.  Go for it.  If you're having fun, you're succeeding.

Second, amateur radio is a hobby.  And it's considered just a little odd by the general public. (Have you noticed?) So... what does being "elite" in this hobby mean?  Generally, not much that will actually, materially affect your life.  It has the potential to help in time of disaster.  If the professional first responders don't chase you away.  But, really, how much does that happen, as a percentage of hams contributing or affected?  Again, small.  So, being an "elite" ham is really more of a tribal "feel good, hey, I'm somebody" attempt in what is, in the end, a very,very small pond that does not have a lot of impact to most people.  For instance, it will not feed your family (for the vast majority of us, anyway).

So... simply enjoy it for what it is and enjoy the people you meet.  My observation is that way too many hams hide under park benches and on forums, far away from "real" people.  Which is why I enjoy participating in ACTIVE radio clubs with good round-robin discussions on projects, activities and social events.  Real people, doing real things, together.  I always learn something.  And if we disagree, then we talk it out, in a civil way, right then and there.  Or we challenge each other to do something, with lunch as the prize.  All good.

By the way, ever walk into the ARRL?  In general, you can expect very friendly people with a passion for what they do.  You'll have a good time.  Almost guaranteed.  OK... there is some politics regarding the hobby at higher levels.  So... are you REALLY going to have a coronary over... a hobby?  There are better things to worry about.  Really.

Third... regarding Carl... Hmmm.  Well, we've all see the classic, grumpy senior citizen who's proud of his kids, has a million stories about his achievements in the Navy and behind the counter somewhere and is the #1 expert in... something.  And he or she does not want you walking on his/her lawn, either.  It's almost an American tradition.  It does not make him or her a bad person (though legends tend to grow up around this).  Just a little difficult to deal with.  Easily solved by (as someone pointed out) ignoring the problem.  And sometimes something useful is said, too.  So not a total loss.  We just have to "lighten up" a little.  Nothing that happens here on the forums really drives our lives.  Unless we let it.

So... being upset about remote operations...  hmmmm...  well, if DXCC and is REALLY a contest against yourself, then who cares?  And if it is a contest against other hams, what do you get if you put all of that effort into it?  What is the cost/beneffit ratio?  Not a great investment, I'll bet.  Unless it's a friendly contest and everybody has fun.  Otherwise it's not worth doing.

And... operating skills?  What does that translate into, exactly (other than fun and social interaction), that is fungible in the "real" world?  Not much.  We have smartphones nowadays.  Not too many businesses hire professionals because they are hams.  CW, FT8.... well, until  SkyNet shows up, not a practical, productive skill, other than for (you guessed it)... fun.  Which is the whole point of having a... (you guessed it)  ... hobby.  BTW, when SkyNet DOES show up, do you REALLY want to transmit "Hi!  I'm KXC67TTY and I am alive, have a working radio and food.  Come get me!"  Next thing you know, Arnold S. shows up at your door with a bad attitude and worse accent:  "Giff me yhour clothes!"  (or else).

Moral off the rant:  KIck back, enjoy your hobby and chill out.  Now... I'll TRY and take my own advice.  Harder doen than said.

Best Regards to ALL,

Brian - K6BRN
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KX2T
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Posts: 1041




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« Reply #133 on: March 19, 2019, 04:34:20 PM »

This whole thread started on N1CX beating a dead horse about the DXCC award and what he deems fair of unfair, I have been in this hobby way to long to let the DXCC or DXCC Challenge bother me at all, after 50 years and some great solar cycles I have been threw its all been about having fun and making new friends plus talking with old friends as well not some piece of paper on the wall. I have had some good times in contest and mostly it was with a group of ham's in which we all had a blast but way too many in this hobby take DXing way to seriously, they forget the hobby should be fun and not a new one in the log but I get it that is for a whole lot of hams who could care less about the fellow at the other end of the pile up.
Remote air time being sold is for some the fix they need, maybe a ham stuck in a condo who cannot have antennas at all that is there fix but wait they better have some deep pockets but for me I really don't care unless I can build the antenna, set up an install a station that at least gets out to somewhere, hell I am good with that and it doesn't have to be world class, I've been there in my past and it became way to much work and less fun so in my golden years I would rather have fun with a little less work!
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K6BRN
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Posts: 1268




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« Reply #134 on: March 20, 2019, 04:32:21 PM »

Hi James (KX2T):

I did not realize this was actually a old thread from last year that someone replied to and revived.  In fact, I've not hear crusty Carl on here since January.  Hmmmm.

Anyway, checked your page on QRZ.  Very nice, simple (and pretty effective, per your note).  Liked your tower with the stacked Yagi's, too.  Were you GROWING those things?  It had at least THREE beams.  Smiley  Very nice IC-7610, too.  Welcome to the digital age!

I tend to agree with you that this hobby is about having FUN, and for me and my ham buddies, part of that is simply hanging out together and doing things we enjoy.  Last weekend it was playing with bandpass filters and comparing Rigol and Siglent spectrum analyzers with a buddy, this week I'm up in Santa Barbara with a friend and our XYLs.  The XYLs are stink-eyeing our FT-991/MyAntennas EFHW-8010-2K portable setup, so not much operating at this point.  Still having fun, though.  With IPAs and whiskey.

What I HAVE noticed is there seems to be a growing pool of hams where face to face social contact and/or conversation is avoided at all cost.  When it does happen, it's often a pissing contest on the forums over some trivia rather than a discussion.  In fact, I've never seen so many "professional hams" as on the forums.  Perhaps its a side effect of an aging population - except that many of the hams I hang with are (way) over 60.  So, I tend to discount age as a factor.  Still plenty of ham clubs in LA where the members socialize and know how to have fun.

Wish you were next door so we could chat about your 2-3 element Yagi and its very interesting home-brew mount.  With your choice of beverage in hand (and I DON'T mean the antenna).  As we tell a few tall stories.  And plan some new ones.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN

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