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Author Topic: Selling "airtime" on ham radio  (Read 201234 times)
K0UA
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Posts: 4590




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« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2018, 06:55:23 AM »

OK, well here are my thoughts.  I don't operate any remote stations, but if someone wants to set on up and charge for it and if someone wants to use it, I am fine with it.  I don't care to, at least at this point in time, but that could change as I get older and might lose my own very modest station.  I don't understand the hatred against this type of operation, and I sure as he77 don't understand this hatred of the the ARRL.

Why do some people think they have the inside track on what Ham Radio is or isn't? Why can't we entertain new ideas and see where these ideas take us instead of proclaiming them the "end of Ham Radio" as we know it.  Amateur Radio has always changed thru the years, just look back in time.  How many of your have cleaned the brushes on your spark gaps lately? Hmmm...

Yes Ham Radio has moved on and hopefully will CONTINUE to move on and evolve as time marches on and the old guys get 6 feet under.   So there you have it, put me in the I'm fine with it camp. Sorry if you don't see it the same way.

Don't put all old guys in the same basket. I'm three quarters of a century on this planet and terribly interested in the new technology. Some personality types cannot change their original thinking and values and some have open opinions their entire lives. Some professions [medicine is the worst] attract personalities that cannot change their opinions and generations have to die off before change can be brought but high tech isn't quite so plagued with them.

Well, I am about 2/3 of a century and am still interested in new technology.  Not a single boat anchor in my house. I like to try and keep up.  Smiley
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73  James K0UA
ARRL Missouri Technical Specialist
KC4ZGP
Member

Posts: 1961




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« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2018, 10:25:24 AM »



The license allows one to get on the air without guardian.

No license needed to own equipment. No license needed to loan equipment.

Kraus



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KM1H
Member

Posts: 5269




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« Reply #107 on: October 03, 2018, 04:09:43 PM »

Hey Scott, that clown bothering you isnt even smart enough to locate your old call which was when you raised those antennas.

He tries to bother me also, for years, but is just a one note blowhard. It makes me wonder how much he really did at that old contest station with not even an Extra license that I could find. Also a little short guy which explains the big mouth attitude and most of the pix of him show a phone op....

Oh well, enjoy him, I got better things to do than excise a pimple on my butt.

Carl
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 5081




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« Reply #108 on: October 05, 2018, 03:58:34 AM »

After plowing through 8 pages of stuff, I have come to the following conclusion:

The FCC is aware of the "rent a remote" situation, has been for years, and deems it perfectly legal.

To the FCC, paying $1.99 per minute plus a fixed annual fee isn't "pecuniary interest" because the person being paid gets the same money regardless of what communications actually take place. The remote operator could pay for an hour's access and work several dozen new countries, or could simply listen to noise, or whatever, and the person being paid gets the same money. The payment is for access, not the actuall comms.

Which makes sense, really, when you consider the precedents already set.

For example, for decades, hams have "guest operated" at other stations. This was and is most common in cases where Ham A built a superstation but wasn't/isn't a super-operator, and so allowed/invited Ham B to do the actual operating.

It has also long been possible to rent a station, usually in an exotic locale, and operate from there (with proper licensing). While some might say "you're paying for the house, not the station!", this is clearly not the case, because the ham would not have stayed there if there were no station for him/her to operate.

Remote operating has a long history, too, but hasn't really been practical over long distances until recently, with the advent of the internet and PCs and remote-ready rigs.

So....why all the fuss?

It seems to me that the REAL reason for all the fuss is that remote-operating-for-money fundamentally changes the game, particularly when it comes to DX and DXCC and similar awards.

In the old old days, if one wanted to earn DXCC or other awards, one had to assemble one's own station and use it to work 100 countries. You couldn't use a friend's station because you couldn't legally sign your call when using another station. And there was the "150 mile" rule.

Then the "150 mile rule" and "station license is inviolate" rules went away over time.

In the old days, if one wanted to earn DXCC or other awards, one had to either assemble one's own station and use it to work 100 countries, or, use a friend's station to do so, or, rent a station from someone who did that. But in order to do so, you had "know a guy" who would allow you to use his/her station, or rent one - but stations for rent were scarce, usually not in the USA DXCC entity, and expensive to access.

Then remote operating became practical.

Now, all one needs is a computer with the right software, a good internet connection, and deep pockets, and one can remote operate from pretty much anywhere, using a super station (or several).

A ham living in an HOA-controlled condo in Chicago can use a remote in Maine to work a pile of Europeans, then one in California to work a Asia and Oceania, one in Florida for South America and Africa - all without ever owning any radio gear at all! AND, such a ham doesn't have to "know a guy"!

S/he could make DXCC pretty easily without all the work and expense of actually assembling a station and putting it on the air. And the whole thing would be pay-as-you-go, not the traditional enormous-first-cost situation.

And that's not all! A ham with a modest station could work many countries on his/her own, but then, when a rare one comes on the air and s/he can't crack the pileup, use a remote to make the Q and move up the rankings.

Meanwhile, the builders of superstations get their costs paid back, at least in part. So they are able to put up bigger and better stations than they would otherwise, and do so with all-new stuff.

I suspect these features of remote operating are what REALLY grinds some folks' gears.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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KM1H
Member

Posts: 5269




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« Reply #109 on: October 05, 2018, 09:31:01 AM »

In a nut shell the DXCC rules need a major overhaul in order to restore integrity and go back to it requiring an effort to accomplish. Now it is a give away to the lowest/no ability ham.

ARRL Director elections are next month, maybe it is time to clean house. Ballots should be arriving soon.

Carl
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 5081




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« Reply #110 on: October 05, 2018, 11:57:21 AM »

In a nut shell the DXCC rules need a major overhaul in order to restore integrity and go back to it requiring an effort to accomplish. Now it is a give away to the lowest/no ability ham.

How is it a "give away to the lowest/no ability ham"?

This is a serious question.

Looking back over the history, I see the following changes:

1) It used to be that all US DXCC QSOs had to be made from stations located within certain geographic limits. For many US hams, a relatively short-distance move could mean having to start all over again.

Then, 40-odd years ago, it became "from the same entity". So a US ham could move from Maine to Florida to SoCal to Washington state, and all the QSOs would count for DXCC.

2) It used to be that you couldn't "guest operate" for DXCC, at least in the USA, because a station had to ID under the call of the station license. If someone other than operates from N2EY's station, they have to sign N2EY, not their own call. This was an FCC rule, not an ARRL one, but it changed.

3) It used to be that getting the DXCC QSOs was only the beginning; the QSOs had to be confirmed with paper. This meant either actual QSL cards, which could take months or even years to get, or, by log comparisons for QSOs made during recent ARRL DX Tests. Getting those QSLs often required dealing with bureaus, IRCs, and more. Just knowing where to send a card was a bit of work. And it wasn't cheap.

Now, we have LoTW, which costs nothing other than time, and which can almost instantly confirm QSOs as long as the DX uses LoTW.

4) Spotting networks, etc.. It used to be that you read the DX column of QST, and various DX bulletins and club papers, to know what DX was on, where, and when. Some avid DXers would do telephone trees to alert each other, and in some places there were VHF voice frequencies (and later, repeaters) to pass the word. But you had to be a club member.

Now, a rare one gets on, and the whole world knows in a flash.

4) And of course....remote stations for hire. Connect to a remote in Maine and work a bunch of Europeans, etc. Even with the prices charged, the total usage fees probably won't exceed the price of a modest DX/contest station (good transceiver, amplifier, tribander at 50 feet, slopers, etc.)


5) On top of all this are the technology changes. Used to be that rigs had to be tuned up; that's all but a thing of the past. Computer control of entire stations is the rule for many; heck, the folks using Flex and similar rigs often sit at a keyboard, looking at a screen, with nary a "radio" in sight - it, and the autotune amplifier, are under the desk or on a rack someplace while The Computer takes center stage, handling rig operation, spotting info, panoramic display, logging, and much more. Instant band and mode change! Point and click on a spot, and the rig goes right there, turns the antenna, and changes band/mode if needed.

And it all costs LESS than the old-school gear did, back-when, if you count inflation.

6) New modes that don't even require that the operator hear or decipher the signal keep showing up. Just point and click, The Computer does the rest, even to the point of logging the QSO for you. No straining through QRM, QRN or QSB, the computer does all that, sending and receiving.

That's the short list

So......what changes would be needed to "restore integrity"  to DXCC? Geographic limits? Only use one's own station? Only paper QSLs?  No spotting networks? No use of remotes? No "modern" technology? No "automated" modes?

Or what?

Where should the lines be drawn? What should the rules be?

Serious questions

Jim, N2EY
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KM1H
Member

Posts: 5269




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« Reply #111 on: October 05, 2018, 06:42:48 PM »

Quote
This is a serious question.

Yeah, sure it is and all you want out of it is a non stop platform to beat anyone down who disagrees with you. Perfect platform for your OCS affliction.

You tried that stunt on QRZ and got it locked.
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N2EY
Member

Posts: 5081




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« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2018, 09:28:01 AM »

Quote
This is a serious question.

Yeah, sure it is and all you want out of it is a non stop platform to beat anyone down who disagrees with you. Perfect platform for your OCS affliction.

You tried that stunt on QRZ and got it locked.

No, Carl.

I'm asking serious questions.

You made disparaging remarks about DXCC and how it has "lost integrity" and is now a "give away to the lowest/no ability ham".

But you don't back that up with details. You don't say what would have to change. You just disparage DXCC and those who earn it today, without any explanation.

As for the thread on QRZ.com.....do you mean this:

http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/w2re-installs-4-square-system-in-2-days.626657/

If so, it wasn't me who got that thread locked. And, guess what...it got unlocked.

Or was it this thread:

http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/your-stations-signal-the-measure-of-macho.611692/

That one's not locked either.

This one got locked, so it may be the one you refer to:

http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/dxcc-remote-controlled-stations.604083/

You keep calling me names, refuse to use my real name or callsign, don't indicate that it is I you are quoting, "diagnose" all sorts of things. Pretty immature, "acting out" behavior.

The reality is that you don't seem to want to discuss anything unless others pay homage to you and agree with you.

Which kinda weakens your position......

What is the problem with explaining to us, without the put-downs and insults, why DXCC isn't what it used to be, and what would need to change to restore it?

Why are you so threatened by what I write?


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KM1H
Member

Posts: 5269




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« Reply #113 on: October 06, 2018, 10:34:23 AM »

Jimmy, give it a break, you are a complete phony and consummate TROLL and if anyone responded to you the "DXCC discussion" would never end or until you won by default and others simply gave up. Winning is all that matters to you. That has been your style for decades and indicative of your Oppositional Conversational Style, aka OCS which is a disturbing mental affliction that you just will not address with professional help.

This certainly applies to your current state of mind, posts 47 and 48

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/racial-words.629728/page-5

BTW, your laughable post would have more credibility if you actually held DXCC but since you have never been in the hunt, experienced the thrills of a new one, achieved even the the basic award after 50 years a ham, and then continued on to higher "country" numbers or other of the DXCC family of awards.......then you would be taken seriously. Your browsing thru moldy old magazines and attempting to make them the heart of your post simply does not cut it and presents you as strictly a keyboard agitator.

Actually I suspect you feel threatened by me since you have spent ~25 years trying to discredit me and I just keep laughing at you and your pathetic attempts.
I have never felt threatened by the likes of you Jimmy when in fact I seriously pity you and feel sorry for anyone that has to put up with you on a daily basis.

So why dont you just SHUT UP for once in your life and do something worthwhile on the forums such as maybe mentor someone....or is that even possible??

Or do you want to run whining to the moderators as you do on QRZ when the going gets rough? A behind the scenes backstabber is more your style.

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N2EY
Member

Posts: 5081




Ignore
« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2018, 03:39:55 PM »

Jimmy, give it a break, you are a complete phony and consummate TROLL and if anyone responded to you the "DXCC discussion" would never end or until you won by default and others simply gave up. Winning is all that matters to you. That has been your style for decades and indicative of your Oppositional Conversational Style, aka OCS which is a disturbing mental affliction that you just will not address with professional help.

Carl,

Who is this "Jimmy" you keep addressing? It can't be me, because I don't go by that name, and the behavior you describe doesn't match me at all.

For example, I'm not a "phony" - I'm as real as can be.

You apply the label "TROLL" to anyone who disagrees with you and won't back down; I've seen it many times in many threads and forums.

BTW, your laughable post would have more credibility if you actually held DXCC but since you have never been in the hunt, experienced the thrills of a new one, achieved even the the basic award after 50 years a ham, and then continued on to higher "country" numbers or other of the DXCC family of awards.......then you would be taken seriously. Your browsing thru moldy old magazines and attempting to make them the heart of your post simply does not cut it and presents you as strictly a keyboard agitator.

Doesn't describe me at all, Carl.

My questions are valid regardless of my DXCC status. So are my facts. You seem to have me confused with someone else.

After all, if you were addressing me, you'd use my name, my call, you'd quote me and identify the quote.

Actually I suspect you feel threatened by me since you have spent ~25 years trying to discredit me and I just keep laughing at you and your pathetic attempts.
I have never felt threatened by the likes of you Jimmy when in fact I seriously pity you and feel sorry for anyone that has to put up with you on a daily basis.

So why dont you just SHUT UP for once in your life and do something worthwhile on the forums such as maybe mentor someone....or is that even possible??

Or do you want to run whining to the moderators as you do on QRZ when the going gets rough? A behind the scenes backstabber is more your style.

Again, who is this "Jimmy"? Can't be me.

You have nothing to fear from me personally, Carl. But it's clear that you can't deal with those who disagree with you, prove you wrong, etc. You see that as a personal attack - just look at how you go after folks in the Amplifiers forum.

As for "whining to the moderators" - not my style at all. However, if someone repeatedly and egregiously violates the rules of a website, reporting the violation isn't "whining".

Look, Carl, I understand where you're coming from. You've been around a long time, done a lot of stuff, and you think everyone should bow low and kow tow to you - and when people don't, you get all upset and angry, because you consider yourself to be above the unwashed masses of Amateur Radio.

It's interesting that you talk about your accomplishments of decades ago - but do not post pictures. You condemn remote operation, and talk about the contest results of your station in the 80s-90s.....but do not mention that many of the truly top results were actually done by a guest operator. You say you've been a ham since 1955.....but there seems to be a gap in the late 1970s. I was N2EY in 1978, Carl - what was your callsign then?

That you tell others to SHUT UP is the most telling of all, Carl - because it means you don't have a rebuttal. You fall back on the old ad hominem attack-the-messenger logical fallacy.

It's not me, Carl. You behave the way you do with anyone who dares to disagree with you, prove you wrong, or question you.

As for mentoring others - try reading my posts, here and on QRZ.
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KX2T
Member

Posts: 1068




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« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2018, 10:13:38 PM »

Hi Jim there is a very easy answer to not being bothered by someones post that clearly doesn't read or hear anything someone else says and that is hit the ignore button. To be honest this hobby is changing and as you can see some change with it but some want it to be the way it was back in 1970 but time marches on and for some of use we march along with it. As far as DXCC and honor roll well those awards have been prostituted and diluted threw the years  almost like the way some contest operators used to cheat during contests but ever since computer logging that has almost been a nil point cause contrary to what some think they really do go threw those logs.
 What I don't really see is there are some that just do not give up on this remote station crap, if they define there standing in this hobby by one award what kind of life do they really have, its a hobby and its hear for personal enjoyment, personal advancement, emergency preparedness just soo many things beside just the DXCC.
I just hope when I get in my seventies I am not one of those chest beating angry OM's I read on these forums and I don't have the attitude of its my way or the highway, cause in reality that is not what I want to look forward to. 
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KM1H
Member

Posts: 5269




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« Reply #116 on: October 18, 2018, 04:45:40 PM »

Quote
I just hope when I get in my seventies I am not one of those chest beating angry OM's I read on these forums and I don't have the attitude of its my way or the highway, cause in reality that is not what I want to look forward to.

The way you get worked up and have to join your TROLL buddy Jimmy for support against little old me I doubt you will live that long.

Plus your reading comprehension (and spelling) is so poor you havent a clue what I was relating to. I doubt if Jimmy does either since DXCC is foreign to him past some moldy old magazines as are most other things he likes to make believe he knows all about.
He hasnt learned yet that experience counts while he keeps staining his undies in frustration as a consummate nerd keyboard warrior.


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N2EY
Member

Posts: 5081




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« Reply #117 on: October 19, 2018, 07:22:47 AM »

Hi Jim there is a very easy answer to not being bothered by someones post that clearly doesn't read or hear anything someone else says and that is hit the ignore button.

I'm not "bothered" by what some folks post.

What I do is to ask relevant questions, offer a different view, and point out errors of fact and reasoning. All of which really annoys some folks.

To be honest this hobby is changing and as you can see some change with it but some want it to be the way it was back in 1970 but time marches on and for some of use we march along with it.

Amateur Radio has always been changing. I've been continuously licensed since 1967 and seen many changes - some good, some bad. On the whole, I'd say the changes have been for the better.

As far as DXCC and honor roll well those awards have been prostituted and diluted threw the years  almost like the way some contest operators used to cheat during contests but ever since computer logging that has almost been a nil point cause contrary to what some think they really do go threw those logs.

Whoa there.....hold on a second.

How, exactly, have DXCC and the Honor Roll been "prostituted and diluted" through the years? In your view?

As for cheating.....do you remember the Don Miller (W9WNV) mess? Dude went on DXpeditions - except that in some cases he was nowhere near the places he claimed to visit. Then he sued ARRL when they disallowed his phony operations - and he lost when his second op revealed the truth.

What I don't really see is there are some that just do not give up on this remote station crap, if they define there standing in this hobby by one award what kind of life do they really have, its a hobby and its hear for personal enjoyment, personal advancement, emergency preparedness just soo many things beside just the DXCC.

Here's one BIG reason:

For many decades, if you wanted the Big Station experience, you had two options: Either you could build a Big Station, which was a lot of work and expense, or, you could be buddies with another ham or group that had a Big Station and would let you use it.

Now, with remote stations, all one needs is a valid credit card and a suitable computer and internet connection. Don't even need to own a radio nor "know a guy".

I don't know if anyone has actually made DXCC, let alone the Honor Roll, via remotes, but the capability is sure there. Use a remote in Maine to work Europeans, one in Florida to work Africans and South/Central Americans, one on the West Coast to work Oceania and eastern Asia....and done.

BUT....here's the thing: Just because the capability is there doesn't mean one has to use it. I've never used a remote station; all my DX and domestic QSOs on HF are via my own homebrew station. How is my accomplishment reduced by what others do?

I just hope when I get in my seventies I am not one of those chest beating angry OM's I read on these forums and I don't have the attitude of its my way or the highway, cause in reality that is not what I want to look forward to. 

I agree 100%! I'm the same way......and I wonder what drives such people.

Here's an analogy:

Way back in late 1997 I bought my first new PC. It was a Dell Dimension XPS 200, with monitor, printer, the works. 200 MHz Pentium MMX processor, sound card, 56k modem, 15 inch Trinitron monitor, HP printer (I forget the model), 6 GB HD, 32 MB RAM, Windows 95, CD ROM, etc. Cost over $2000 back then - about $3126 today.

It was a whiz-bang system for its time, and the price was actually quite low for what you got. It still works, too!

Today, for much less money, you can get a system that has many many times the capabilities of that old system, and is much easier to use. And you can hardly give away the old computer (although there are some collectors and gamers who will pay a few dollars for it.)

Should I be all worked up because today's computers do more and cost less than 20+ years ago? Should I put down those who didn't spend huge amounts for their computers?

73 de Jim, N2EY



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KB4QAA
Member

Posts: 3339




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« Reply #118 on: October 21, 2018, 04:32:16 PM »

Are DXCC and the Honor Roll debased?   

Well, clearly the solution is to stop publishing them both.  Making contacts is a personal interest, and obviously it is time to stop encouraging competition, envy and enmity. There!  Problem solved.  Smiley

My alternative solution is to raise the bar so high that few will ever achieve it.  Make the list include every mode x every band.  Include all the mode variations like the twelve speed variants of Olivia, etc.  Smiley
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KA0HCP, ex-KB4QAA Relocated to Ks. April 2019.
KM1H
Member

Posts: 5269




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« Reply #119 on: October 21, 2018, 06:00:40 PM »

Bill,

The original intent of DXCC was to make it a real challenge and achieving the award was something to cherish and be proud of. It was not meant to be for everyone and signified an elite status level. Now it is so watered down it means nothing yet some now want to use a pay as you go remote super station or multiple ones and not even have to own a radio. It was bad enough when contacts from all continental 48 states were permitted. I had to start over 5 times when the 25 mile rule was in effect for decades.
DXCC is now worthless IMO unless major changes are made TO RAISE THE BAR.

These days, even at the sun spot low, someone with 100W and HOA restrictions can work 100+ in a good contest weekend on CW and maybe two contests on SSB; it isnt hard. With the new Digital DXCC it can probably be done with 10W in 6 months or less with an indoor antenna since there is no FT8 contest....yet.

I reached Honor Roll Phone and CW level years ago, 9B DXCC (no award available) with an amp was nothing hard except I have better than average antennas for 160....the 5BDXCC award is for 80-10 only, any modes, plus there are individual band awards.

For a personal challenge only I made 9BDXCC with a QRP 5W, on CW and 160 took 30 years but only about 10 really pushing it once I gave it a go. Im up to 19 on 160 with 100 milliwatts. A goodly part of all that was with a 1934 National FB XA receiver and a 1940 Meissner Signal Shifter VFO that I restored.

Prior to that I worked 118 DXCC, confirmed 100+ with a homebrew push pull pair of WW2 surplus 211A/VT-4's in a self excited oscillator, aka Yooper at around 90W. It took months to get it to sound respectable and 2 1/2 years to get the QSL's mostly via the ARRL bureau.

Carl

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