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Author Topic: DX award degree of difficulty?  (Read 22058 times)
AA6YQ
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« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2018, 09:31:43 PM »

- only 122 DXers are on the Digital Honor Roll

- only 5 DXers are at the top of the CW Honor Roll

- only 1 DXer holds the DXCC Challenge DeSoto Cup (by definition)

- there are no DXers at the top of the Digital Honor Roll

Those data don't really mean much. There are a large number of dx'ers, some of whom I know, who have achieved greater levels of success who never felt the need to submit proof to anyone else of that which they (or I) know they accomplished.

If someone has the time, the desire and the lack of anything better to do, none of these mentioned is difficult.

You're not on any mode-specific honor role, but you claim that "Top of the Digital Honor Roll" -- which no DXer has yet attained -- is not difficult? I call bullshit.
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VK3KTT
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« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2018, 11:05:11 PM »

i know a few people here in vk who havent applied but dont care they would be at the  320 300  mark but have paper logs and cbf digitizing them.
re 6m dxcc only a hand full have it here in vk the highest 127 approx which is from 50 years of 6m dx moving around the country to get some advantage.
so its all relevant. only a hand full at top of hour roll
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10m dx'er
is sdr the future i dont know

vk3ktt/k3ktt
WO7R
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« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2018, 11:43:06 PM »

This is a large community.

There is no obvious reason to believe that the accomplishments of those who have applied for awards and those who have not are markedly different; certainly no obvious reason to suspect the non-applicants have better numbers.  In fact, if someone has high achievement, one would expect that would motivate applications for awards, if anything.  But, we don't really know either way.  We can, however, be quite suspicious of claims of routine high achievement without applying for anything.

It doesn't pass the smell test, at least.  Someone who (for instance) has achieved #1 HR on Digital, which would be a first, would have spent enough money getting there such that the award application (especially in these LOTW-heavy days) would be rounding error compared to the total expenditure.

Farther on down, perhaps there are more people who have (for instance) 332 countries, maybe mode specific, maybe not, who have not bothered to apply.  I can readily believe that there are some who don't bother with mode specific stuff.  Mixed HR may well be enough for some.

But, even given that, why should we expect they are substantially greater in number or different in accomplishment from those that do apply?

I personally don't know anyone in my DX club, at least, who has achieved 5BWAZ at the 200 zones level and has not applied for it.  

I just checked my entire "Mixed" HR in my club, and only 3 of 32 have not applied to Newington to validate their claims.  Spot checking the Phone HR members suggests that slighly fewer apply for that.

I see no indication that those who do not apply are significantly different that the rest.  That's just one club, to be sure, but it is some data at  least.  And, why should our club's results not be typical?  I can't think of an obvious reason why.

So, to the extent anyone has provided evidence, it appears that the idea that their is this huge horde of high performing DXers is kind of lacking in. . .evidence.  What little there is goes the other way.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 11:52:29 PM by WO7R » Logged
NI0C
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« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2018, 04:06:52 AM »

Quote
I just checked my entire "Mixed" HR in my club, and only 3 of 32 have not applied to Newington to validate their claims.  Spot checking the Phone HR members suggests that slighly fewer apply for that.

I see no indication that those who do not apply are significantly different that the rest.  That's just one club, to be sure, but it is some data at  least.  And, why should our club's results not be typical?  I can't think of an obvious reason why.

Our local DX club publishes quarterly online DXCC totals of members: http://www.mvdxcc.org/pdf/q3-2018dxccstats.pdf
The listings in red are those claimed by members; those in black are taken from the ARRL DXCC listings.  There are a lot of listings in the red category, but almost all of those members are found at least somewhere in the ARRL listings.

For several quarters, we had one guy who claimed CW totals higher than anyone else on the ARRL CW list, until someone pointed out to him that claimed CW totals had to reflect entities worked since 1975 (start date of the ARRL CW DXCC).  Another guy in our club probably qualifies for Mixed Honor Roll, but just won't part with his cards to have them checked (even though we have a DXCC card checker who attends nearly every meeting).  I think the guy must keep his cards locked in a safe deposit box.  He also does not submit data for our online listing.  But those are anomalies, I believe.
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K1VSK
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« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2018, 07:18:47 AM »

. And to say the data doesn't mean much, and none of what is mentioned is difficult? I won't even bother to commit on that.


No need to get defensive.  I said..." if the time, desire and nothing better to do"... it's not difficult. The fact  most of us have lives beyond sitting in front of a radio is what makes it difficult. And sitting in front of a computer staring at it making qsos even more difficult.
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K7KB
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« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2018, 08:36:54 AM »

Quote
I just checked my entire "Mixed" HR in my club, and only 3 of 32 have not applied to Newington to validate their claims.  Spot checking the Phone HR members suggests that slighly fewer apply for that.

I see no indication that those who do not apply are significantly different that the rest.  That's just one club, to be sure, but it is some data at  least.  And, why should our club's results not be typical?  I can't think of an obvious reason why.

Our local DX club publishes quarterly online DXCC totals of members: http://www.mvdxcc.org/pdf/q3-2018dxccstats.pdf
The listings in red are those claimed by members; those in black are taken from the ARRL DXCC listings.  There are a lot of listings in the red category, but almost all of those members are found at least somewhere in the ARRL listings.

For several quarters, we had one guy who claimed CW totals higher than anyone else on the ARRL CW list, until someone pointed out to him that claimed CW totals had to reflect entities worked since 1975 (start date of the ARRL CW DXCC).  Another guy in our club probably qualifies for Mixed Honor Roll, but just won't part with his cards to have them checked (even though we have a DXCC card checker who attends nearly every meeting).  I think the guy must keep his cards locked in a safe deposit box.  He also does not submit data for our online listing.  But those are anomalies, I believe.

I have quite a few pre-1975 CW QSO's. It's kinda strange how they work. They count for the band, and that you worked the country but mode is kinda in limbo, especially for electronic logging where you are tracking award totals.
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NI0C
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« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2018, 01:53:08 PM »

Quote
I have quite a few pre-1975 CW QSO's. It's kinda strange how they work. They count for the band, and that you worked the country but mode is kinda in limbo, especially for electronic logging where you are tracking award totals.
I guess that depends on what logging program you are using.  I also have many CW QSO's dated between 1959 and 1969, and DXLab's DXKeeper and DXView give me correct CW DXCC counts.
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AA6YQ
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« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2018, 01:59:14 PM »

. And to say the data doesn't mean much, and none of what is mentioned is difficult? I won't even bother to commit on that.


No need to get defensive.  I said..." if the time, desire and nothing better to do"... it's not difficult. The fact  most of us have lives beyond sitting in front of a radio is what makes it difficult. And sitting in front of a computer staring at it making qsos even more difficult.

Sitting in front of a radio with a competent antenna system will get you to 270-290 DXCC entities. Getting the rest requires knowing the behavioral patterns of operators in rarely-active DXCC entities, knowing when DXCC entities without resident operators are being activated, and understanding shortpath and longpath HF propagation from your QTH throughout all four seasons.

Your claim than an objective no DXer has yet accomplished is "not difficult" has destroyed your credibility on this topic.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 02:09:11 PM by AA6YQ » Logged

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AA6YQ
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« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2018, 02:08:33 PM »

I guess that depends on what logging program you are using.  I also have many CW QSO's dated between 1959 and 1969, and DXLab's DXKeeper and DXView give me correct CW DXCC counts.

CW QSOs made before 1975-01-01 were granted "partial credit" by the ARRL DXCC desk: credit for the DXCC entity, and credit for the entity-band. The DXCC desk would also grant "partial credit" to QSOs submitted before they began using computers to maintain each user's award progress. For example, you might send them a QSL card confirming a 7X station on 80m RTTY, but if you submitted this QSO for Mixed credit, no credit would be recorded for 7X-80m or 7X-RTTY. To accurately track DXCC award progress, logging applications must correctly handle QSOs to which "partial credit" has been granted.

Note: if you have a QSL card to which "partial credit" has been granted, you can send it back to the ARRL's DXCC desk and they will grant it full DXCC credit.
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K1VSK
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« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2018, 02:36:04 PM »

. And to say the data doesn't mean much, and none of what is mentioned is difficult? I won't even bother to commit on that.


No need to get defensive.  I said..." if the time, desire and nothing better to do"... it's not difficult. The fact  most of us have lives beyond sitting in front of a radio is what makes it difficult. And sitting in front of a computer staring at it making qsos even more difficult.

Sitting in front of a radio with a competent antenna system will get you to 270-290 DXCC entities. Getting the rest requires knowing the behavioral patterns of operators in rarely-active DXCC entities, knowing when DXCC entities without resident operators are being activated, and understanding shortpath and longpath HF propagation from your QTH throughout all four seasons.

Your claim than an objective no DXer has yet accomplished is "not difficult" has destroyed your credibility on this topic.


I wasn't worried how much credibility you place on it.

To review the distinction - teaching my dog to speak Farsi isn't difficult. It's impossible. The concepts are mutually exclusive. As it applies to any award which may be unachievable, that isn't difficult. Get it?
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W4AMP
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« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2018, 02:48:30 PM »

IMHO the ARRL's change of DXCC rules to allow remote operation killed the value of the award. YMMV
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KC0W
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« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2018, 03:08:57 PM »

IMHO the ARRL's change of DXCC rules to allow remote operation killed the value of the award. YMMV

 "CAT cable amateurs". Without an Internet connection a lot of thumb twiddling goes on...........Long live the signal flow of: Radio - Coax - Antenna.


                                                                       Tom KC0W   
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W4AMP
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« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2018, 03:19:21 PM »

Merry Xmas Tom, hope you are well.

Made it to 303 Phone confirmed, have 10 more to get checked. But now that you can work remote through a station on either coast ruined it for me.

The removal of pecuniary interest allows fortunes to be made by owners of remote stations.

You can now get on the honor role and not even own a radio.  Undecided
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 03:29:02 PM by W4AMP » Logged
N5UD
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« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2018, 04:10:48 PM »

I need a "good" P5 CW for all in CW. I may not live long enough to get that one. Heck it might even be a delete, when the Koreas unify. Before I can work a P5 on CW.

73 and GL N5UD
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AA6YQ
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« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2018, 04:11:43 PM »

To review the distinction - teaching my dog to speak Farsi isn't difficult. It's impossible. The concepts are mutually exclusive. As it applies to any award which may be unachievable, that isn't difficult. Get it?

The first rule of escaping from a deep hole is to stop digging.
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