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Author Topic: Say Yes To D-Star  (Read 45196 times)
KE7TMA
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Posts: 537




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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2013, 10:11:36 PM »

The only thing I can say in Icom's defense is that they are not in the business of developing chips. AMBE comes up with a CODEC that works well and Icom used it rather than paying the big engineering costs of developing their own CODEC chip.

One guy created a chip that is more functional and uses less bandwidth than the AMBE chip, in less than a year of his free time.  Most of the work for voice coding over radio was already done (watch the interview regarding Codec2 on Youtube) and in the public domain - somebody just had to put the code together and work the kinks out.  An outstanding job by this man, but this isn't the same as putting a man on the moon.

If Icom couldn't figure out how to get a quality engineer on the job, and if they didn't see a backlash against their proprietary mode coming, they need to connect with actual radio amateurs more than they currently seem to.  Perhaps ham radios are just a sideline to their marine and commercial businesses, I don't know.  But there's no excuse for making a proprietary mode which can not be used by experimenters without paying off some sue-happy company.
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W1MSG
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2013, 12:53:51 AM »

So I guess what the nay sayers are saying is even if Kenwood or Yaesu or any other radio manufacturer bought the AMBE chip for use in their radios they still wouldn't use it. Is that a correct assumption? All because DVSI owns the patent on the chip and won't make the code available or allow anyone else to make their chip? Sounds kind of one way to me, do you think the computer you are using has open architecture on the processor? How about that Apple iPhone, or the Verizon Cell phone.

Its a $20 chip that enables Dstar protocols, Get over it ! There are already boards being made that will allow any Analog radio on Dstar, yup they buy the chips and are able to make their own stuff work just fine on Dstar. 

I just recently got into Dstar and I am enjoying it, I was a hold out as I thought it was an Icom thing, which it is and it isnt, but I didnt go around bad mouthing it.

Anyway my 2 cents worth if its even worth that ...

73,   Craig W1MSG

You're laboring pretty hard to miss the point.  Imagine if you could only use CW if you paid me $20.  You can take an iPhone and tak to somebody using a Droid phone.  You can use a Macintosh and talk to somebody with a Thinkpad.  You can not use DStar without paying the fee to AMBE.  You are completely confused when it comes to this issue.  DStar's use of the proprietary codec runs afoul of the spirit of openness and experimentation that is one of the defining aspects of amateur radio.

DStar is dead in the water anyway.

And yes, it's still an Icom thing.  Even if every manufacturer offered a DStar set most thinking hams would eschew it.  Once the Codec2 radios start appearing DStar will go from merely dead to stinking of decomposition.

Wow you really wave that Experimentation flag pretty hard as a Tech .. The real Experimenters are in fact making DStar compatible boards and they work very well. Maybe Dead in the water in your opinion, but from the stats its growing daily all over the world.
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KC2UGV
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Posts: 529




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« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2013, 05:31:06 AM »

The only thing I can say in Icom's defense is that they are not in the business of developing chips. AMBE comes up with a CODEC that works well and Icom used it rather than paying the big engineering costs of developing their own CODEC chip.

I expect that this issue is something that is going to happen more and more. As digital protocols become more complex they take more time to develop and test so the engineering investment goes up. Most companies are not going to invest that much money into development and then give it away (open source) so that others can compete with a less expensive product because they didn't have to pay development costs. Look what happened with IBM and their PC.

Which flies in the face of technology's history:  Openness has always been the better market.

Are you locked into Microsoft PC's, if you want to run Windows?  Nope.
What is the most popularly used webservers, DB servers, DNS servers, etc etc?  Apache/MySQL/BIND (All open source).
Look at what happened to IBM once they certified their hardware for Redhat (An open source OS)?
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AK4YA
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Posts: 106




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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2013, 09:45:41 AM »

Im sold.  Ill say yes if I can get an external adapter for a FT-897D.  Your article says these external adapters work for the 857.  What are different sources for these adapters?  Any kits?
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W1MSG
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« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2013, 01:36:34 PM »

Im sold.  Ill say yes if I can get an external adapter for a FT-897D.  Your article says these external adapters work for the 857.  What are different sources for these adapters?  Any kits?

http://shop.dvrptr.de/  Thats the link for the Version 2 boards from Germany

http://dvrptr.net  These are the guys in Canada

It depends on if you want to use the FT as a Hotspot or an actual DStar radio as to what you should get.. The German site is down till they come back from Holiday..

73,   Craig
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KC2UGV
Member

Posts: 529




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« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2013, 06:04:39 AM »

Im sold.  Ill say yes if I can get an external adapter for a FT-897D.  Your article says these external adapters work for the 857.  What are different sources for these adapters?  Any kits?

http://shop.dvrptr.de/  Thats the link for the Version 2 boards from Germany

http://dvrptr.net  These are the guys in Canada

It depends on if you want to use the FT as a Hotspot or an actual DStar radio as to what you should get.. The German site is down till they come back from Holiday..

73,   Craig


I'll be sold once I can implement the who shebang in software, like Codec2.
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W1MSG
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Posts: 152


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« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2013, 09:44:00 AM »

Im sold.  Ill say yes if I can get an external adapter for a FT-897D.  Your article says these external adapters work for the 857.  What are different sources for these adapters?  Any kits?

http://shop.dvrptr.de/  Thats the link for the Version 2 boards from Germany

http://dvrptr.net  These are the guys in Canada

It depends on if you want to use the FT as a Hotspot or an actual DStar radio as to what you should get.. The German site is down till they come back from Holiday..

73,   Craig


I'll be sold once I can implement the who shebang in software, like Codec2.

Gee Whiz Codec 2 still requires a Modem for VHF/UHF and guess what modems it uses, you guessed it GMSK Modems, same ones used for DStar.

A little quote " Using a GMSK or C4FM modem for VHF/UHF " 

Its interesting, curious to see where it goes. I know Motorola has the TRBO systems for Amateur Radio, its all Motorola equipment and haven't seen any 3rd party development yet.
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KE7TMA
Member

Posts: 537




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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2013, 10:56:16 PM »

So I guess what the nay sayers are saying is even if Kenwood or Yaesu or any other radio manufacturer bought the AMBE chip for use in their radios they still wouldn't use it. Is that a correct assumption? All because DVSI owns the patent on the chip and won't make the code available or allow anyone else to make their chip? Sounds kind of one way to me, do you think the computer you are using has open architecture on the processor? How about that Apple iPhone, or the Verizon Cell phone.

Its a $20 chip that enables Dstar protocols, Get over it ! There are already boards being made that will allow any Analog radio on Dstar, yup they buy the chips and are able to make their own stuff work just fine on Dstar. 

I just recently got into Dstar and I am enjoying it, I was a hold out as I thought it was an Icom thing, which it is and it isnt, but I didnt go around bad mouthing it.

Anyway my 2 cents worth if its even worth that ...

73,   Craig W1MSG

You're laboring pretty hard to miss the point.  Imagine if you could only use CW if you paid me $20.  You can take an iPhone and tak to somebody using a Droid phone.  You can use a Macintosh and talk to somebody with a Thinkpad.  You can not use DStar without paying the fee to AMBE.  You are completely confused when it comes to this issue.  DStar's use of the proprietary codec runs afoul of the spirit of openness and experimentation that is one of the defining aspects of amateur radio.

DStar is dead in the water anyway.

And yes, it's still an Icom thing.  Even if every manufacturer offered a DStar set most thinking hams would eschew it.  Once the Codec2 radios start appearing DStar will go from merely dead to stinking of decomposition.

Wow you really wave that Experimentation flag pretty hard as a Tech .. The real Experimenters are in fact making DStar compatible boards and they work very well. Maybe Dead in the water in your opinion, but from the stats its growing daily all over the world.

Even as a tech I have enough sense to know that there's no place for proprietary, patented modes on my airwaves.  If you are the holder of a higher license, why can't you see something that's so obviously a threat to the future of our hobby?

I have to question your motivation if you say things as silly and unsupportable as what you just did.  It's not within my powers to comprehend your motives, and makes me question whether or not you're fit to hold a license.
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KE7TMA
Member

Posts: 537




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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2013, 10:58:02 PM »

Im sold.  Ill say yes if I can get an external adapter for a FT-897D.  Your article says these external adapters work for the 857.  What are different sources for these adapters?  Any kits?

http://shop.dvrptr.de/  Thats the link for the Version 2 boards from Germany

http://dvrptr.net  These are the guys in Canada

It depends on if you want to use the FT as a Hotspot or an actual DStar radio as to what you should get.. The German site is down till they come back from Holiday..

73,   Craig


I'll be sold once I can implement the who shebang in software, like Codec2.

AMBE's lawyers will be all over you like flies on poop if you try to implement their codec in software without paying your 30 pieces of silver.
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W1MSG
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« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2013, 02:45:18 AM »

Andrew, you have so much to learn. First off there are no Codec2 networks out there in operation and until that happens there wont be much of a change. There are no Radio's with the Codec2 standard either, you still need a modem ( which is HARDWARE ) to implement it.

Personally I would embrace the standard as it appears it will also work on the current DStar hardware, well at least the GMSK Modems and possibly even a firmware upgrade away on the radios.

Thanks for Trolling its been fun.
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W1MSG
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« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2013, 05:18:00 AM »

A little more food for thought. DVSI Released the AMBE in 1994, from what I can find it was Patented in either 1994 or 1995 which means the Patent will expire next year or the year after. That will open it up for others to produce the chip. Of course that will shut the door on DStar proprietary chip debates, but I am sure they will find other things to bash DStar about.

I was not a fan of DStar for a long time as I drank the cool aid the haters were serving, but since I gave it a try I have enjoyed it. It continues to grow in use regardless of what is spewed on some of the forums, just check out some of the DStar info sites and look at the repeater lists for download, they actually are too large to load into any of the radios at this point and growing.

Anyway I am done with feeding the Troll's. They are also not very good ambassadors for the Codec2, the last thing you want to do is bash another product when you are trying to promote a different one.

73 All
I am usually on the XRF901A Reflector, I link my repeater there most of the time. You can also do a call sign connect for W1MSG and if I am on you will connect for a QSO .. You can directly link to my Repeater as well KC1ACI B .. Catch ya on DStar !

Craig
 
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K0JEG
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Posts: 885




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« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2013, 08:02:46 AM »

And the Balkanization of amateur radio begins....

http://yaesu.com/downloadFile.cfm?FileID=7146&FileCatID=151&FileName=DigitalCommunicationsGuide%5FE%5B1%5D.pdf&FileContentType=application%2Fpdf

http://yaesu.com/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&ProdCatID=111&encProdID=25F65DA12CA1FCB444A927CD14417BFD&DivisionID=65&isArchived=0

The pdf pamphlet makes some good points against D-Star but doesn't really get me interested in the Yaseu system either. It seems  to me they're stuck in the hardware world while the rest of us have migrated to software. Even the smartphone in your pocket uses SDR-like processes to modulate the "aether."

Speaking of which, where's my "smart radio" running Android?

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/15/runbo-x5-x3-x1/
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KE7TMA
Member

Posts: 537




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« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2013, 07:19:57 PM »

A little more food for thought. DVSI Released the AMBE in 1994, from what I can find it was Patented in either 1994 or 1995 which means the Patent will expire next year or the year after. That will open it up for others to produce the chip. Of course that will shut the door on DStar proprietary chip debates, but I am sure they will find other things to bash DStar about.

I was not a fan of DStar for a long time as I drank the cool aid the haters were serving, but since I gave it a try I have enjoyed it. It continues to grow in use regardless of what is spewed on some of the forums, just check out some of the DStar info sites and look at the repeater lists for download, they actually are too large to load into any of the radios at this point and growing.

Anyway I am done with feeding the Troll's. They are also not very good ambassadors for the Codec2, the last thing you want to do is bash another product when you are trying to promote a different one.

73 All
I am usually on the XRF901A Reflector, I link my repeater there most of the time. You can also do a call sign connect for W1MSG and if I am on you will connect for a QSO .. You can directly link to my Repeater as well KC1ACI B .. Catch ya on DStar !

Craig
 

Codec2 is not a product, it's a technology.  It's free.

Anyway I believe that the DVSI chip used in DStar is the AMBE2 codec, which has a patent that will not expire for some time yet.

With RAM as cheap as it is these days, there's no excuse for making a radio that can't handle tens of thousands of memories anyway, especially if the proprietary mode is meant to be worldwide unified.
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W1MSG
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« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2013, 11:12:40 PM »

Actually AMBE2 wasn't released until late 2006, Icom had DStar radios in early 2004 under the original AMBE. Not sure what's in the latest releases but the original radios still work so when the basic AMBE Patent Expires it will be open for the Experimenters to dissect.
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KC2UGV
Member

Posts: 529




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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2013, 09:52:14 AM »

Im sold.  Ill say yes if I can get an external adapter for a FT-897D.  Your article says these external adapters work for the 857.  What are different sources for these adapters?  Any kits?

http://shop.dvrptr.de/  Thats the link for the Version 2 boards from Germany

http://dvrptr.net  These are the guys in Canada

It depends on if you want to use the FT as a Hotspot or an actual DStar radio as to what you should get.. The German site is down till they come back from Holiday..

73,   Craig


I'll be sold once I can implement the who shebang in software, like Codec2.

Gee Whiz Codec 2 still requires a Modem for VHF/UHF and guess what modems it uses, you guessed it GMSK Modems, same ones used for DStar.

A little quote " Using a GMSK or C4FM modem for VHF/UHF " 

Its interesting, curious to see where it goes. I know Motorola has the TRBO systems for Amateur Radio, its all Motorola equipment and haven't seen any 3rd party development yet.

Yes, I understand Codec2 still needs a modem.  In fact, one can even use soundmodem to use Codec2.

And, again:  I'd be onboard once I can implement the entire shebang in software.  I don't need another black box on my desk.
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