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Author Topic: Consider Linux? I did and ...  (Read 91598 times)
N5INP
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Posts: 2312




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« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2015, 11:53:50 AM »

Just hooked the little mini with Linux Mint + WSJT-X up to a rig and made a JT65 contact. Very pleased. Had some trouble locating the directory where the log file was stored (it was a hidden dir - .local/...) but found it. Everything seems to be working! I think this is going to work very well.  Smiley
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K4ISR
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« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2015, 09:35:43 AM »

For most people not very familiar with Linux, I tend to recommend Linux Mint as well.

I have noticed that Mint 17 is far slower on lower-end hardware than 9 or 13 were. 

I'm typing this post on a 64-bit Zotac Zbox nettop with 2 Gb of RAM, running 32-bit Mint 17.  I had to change from 64- to 32-bit Mint because 64-bit Mint was dog-slow.  But it is easy to use if you have the horsepower (and RAM). 

But even the 32 bit version is slower than Slackware64 14.1.  The latter is what I recommend on underpowered hardware like nettops and netbooks (that market is dead, but they may be available for cheap).  Any mainstream PC should run Mint 17 just fine. 

Slackware is also the distro to use if you really want to learn Linux concepts.  Some things are older (how the system is initialized, for one -- BSD init scripts vs systemd), but it's not all that difficult.  Debian is another good one to learn since it's what Ubuntu and Mint are based on.  If your company uses Red Hat, then download CentOS and use it (they are one and the same, other than branding).

There are tons of distros out there. For lower end systems, I prefer a minimal desktop (or CLI for server use) using CentOS 6.5, since during its setup, you can select and deselect options based on what you will likely need or not use, so it is not loaded into memory and allows the OS to work much faster. Many of the newer distros do not allow that level of fine tuning during the OS install, so you need to spend a few days going through and cleaning out the extra unneeded crap to keep the OS install slim and only running the needed programs.
We use a variation of that for servers at my work called Scientific Linux (6.5) and it has the same setup process, and once slimmed down to just what is needed (typical OS comes in around 1-2GB of space used), it allows 15 year old servers (single or dual core, 1-4GB RAM, 80-500GB platter based hard drives) to serve thousands of people using our service with no speed degredation caused by the server.
One of the bigger drawbacks for people or companies that do a lot of modern development is its very slow upgrade process, so it tends to have older versions of php, apache, squid, etc in their repos, but at the same time for companies that like stable servers that work for a decade at a time or more, it works amazing. In our case, typically the hardware starts to go bad due to old age, or simply replaced (retired when hardware is still good) before the OS shows any signs of problems (we recently retired an old first gen 1GHz Athlon, 256MB PC66 SDRAM, 40GB hdd system because of its age despite it still running well).
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de K4ISR
K5TED
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Posts: 243




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« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2015, 08:00:10 AM »

Computers are tools, not decorations.


Three computer users go into a Home Depot to buy a screwdriver.

The Linux guy knows exactly what is needed to get the job done. "I need a #3 Frearson screwdriver with case hardened steel blade and lightweight composite handle".

The Mac guy says, "I want one of those, too, but I want to pay twice as much for it as that other guy did".

The Windows guy, "I want a screwdriver. I don't care if it is the right kind or size, or how durable it is or how much it weights. But it has to be pretty, and the handle has to be too big."


Let me fix that for you..,

Linux guy knows what he wants, is not sure what is needed, willing to experiment, and demands a free screwdriver handle that requires the user to go to a different free market depot for each project to find roughly machined bits that might fit his handle, and almost always require the user to manually file down to fit each type of screw.

Apple guy wants a screwdriver that comes with most screw driving tasks already done. He'll pay extra for the few available optional bits as long as they are the same color and expensive. He'll often remind other screwdriver users why he doesn't care that his screwdriver doesn't work with commonly used screws.

Windows guy buys a screwdriver kit with a sturdy handle, the most commonly used bits, and that can take any of a huge assortment of readily available optional bits for any job at hand. Many of the bits are available in the 'take one free' bin, others are inexpensive. Some are expensive bits for specialty jobs. These are the most popular screwdrivers in the store. Most projects around the world are successfully accomplished using these bits.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 08:20:50 AM by K5TED » Logged
KK4GGL
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Posts: 1327




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« Reply #108 on: January 17, 2015, 09:47:37 AM »

Computers are tools, not decorations.


Three computer users go into a Home Depot to buy a screwdriver.

The Linux guy knows exactly what is needed to get the job done. "I need a #3 Frearson screwdriver with case hardened steel blade and lightweight composite handle".

The Mac guy says, "I want one of those, too, but I want to pay twice as much for it as that other guy did".

The Windows guy, "I want a screwdriver. I don't care if it is the right kind or size, or how durable it is or how much it weights. But it has to be pretty, and the handle has to be too big."


Let me fix that for you..,

Linux guy knows what he wants, is not sure what is needed, willing to experiment, and demands a free screwdriver handle

oops... DEMANDS a free ... Uh, no.

that requires the user to go to a different free market depot for each project to find roughly machined bits that might fit his handle, and almost always require the user to manually file down to fit each type of screw.

Again .. uh, no. Most Gnu/Linux users simply DL/Install from their distribution repository.

Apple guy wants a screwdriver that comes with most screw driving tasks already done. He'll pay extra for the few available optional bits as long as they are the same color and expensive. He'll often remind other screwdriver users why he doesn't care that his screwdriver doesn't work with commonly used screws.

Windows guy buys a screwdriver kit with a sturdy handle, the most commonly used bits, and that can take any of a huge assortment of readily available optional bits for any job at hand. Many of the bits are available in the 'take one free' bin, others are inexpensive. Some are expensive bits for specialty jobs. These are the most popular screwdrivers in the store. Most projects around the world are successfully accomplished using these bits.

In which dream world are you living?
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73,
Rick KK4GGL
K5TED
Member

Posts: 243




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« Reply #109 on: January 17, 2015, 03:03:21 PM »

Computers are tools, not decorations.


Three computer users go into a Home Depot to buy a screwdriver.

The Linux guy knows exactly what is needed to get the job done. "I need a #3 Frearson screwdriver with case hardened steel blade and lightweight composite handle".

The Mac guy says, "I want one of those, too, but I want to pay twice as much for it as that other guy did".

The Windows guy, "I want a screwdriver. I don't care if it is the right kind or size, or how durable it is or how much it weights. But it has to be pretty, and the handle has to be too big."


Let me fix that for you..,

Linux guy knows what he wants, is not sure what is needed, willing to experiment, and demands a free screwdriver handle

oops... DEMANDS a free ... Uh, no.

that requires the user to go to a different free market depot for each project to find roughly machined bits that might fit his handle, and almost always require the user to manually file down to fit each type of screw.

Again .. uh, no. Most Gnu/Linux users simply DL/Install from their distribution repository.

Apple guy wants a screwdriver that comes with most screw driving tasks already done. He'll pay extra for the few available optional bits as long as they are the same color and expensive. He'll often remind other screwdriver users why he doesn't care that his screwdriver doesn't work with commonly used screws.

Windows guy buys a screwdriver kit with a sturdy handle, the most commonly used bits, and that can take any of a huge assortment of readily available optional bits for any job at hand. Many of the bits are available in the 'take one free' bin, others are inexpensive. Some are expensive bits for specialty jobs. These are the most popular screwdrivers in the store. Most projects around the world are successfully accomplished using these bits.

In which dream world are you living?

How's that less than 8% desktop OS working out for your reality?
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KK4GGL
Member

Posts: 1327




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« Reply #110 on: January 17, 2015, 04:05:49 PM »

Computers are tools, not decorations.


Three computer users go into a Home Depot to buy a screwdriver.

The Linux guy knows exactly what is needed to get the job done. "I need a #3 Frearson screwdriver with case hardened steel blade and lightweight composite handle".

The Mac guy says, "I want one of those, too, but I want to pay twice as much for it as that other guy did".

The Windows guy, "I want a screwdriver. I don't care if it is the right kind or size, or how durable it is or how much it weights. But it has to be pretty, and the handle has to be too big."


Let me fix that for you..,

Linux guy knows what he wants, is not sure what is needed, willing to experiment, and demands a free screwdriver handle

oops... DEMANDS a free ... Uh, no.

that requires the user to go to a different free market depot for each project to find roughly machined bits that might fit his handle, and almost always require the user to manually file down to fit each type of screw.

Again .. uh, no. Most Gnu/Linux users simply DL/Install from their distribution repository.

Apple guy wants a screwdriver that comes with most screw driving tasks already done. He'll pay extra for the few available optional bits as long as they are the same color and expensive. He'll often remind other screwdriver users why he doesn't care that his screwdriver doesn't work with commonly used screws.

Windows guy buys a screwdriver kit with a sturdy handle, the most commonly used bits, and that can take any of a huge assortment of readily available optional bits for any job at hand. Many of the bits are available in the 'take one free' bin, others are inexpensive. Some are expensive bits for specialty jobs. These are the most popular screwdrivers in the store. Most projects around the world are successfully accomplished using these bits.

In which dream world are you living?

How's that less than 8% desktop OS working out for your reality?

Opensuse is working of just fine for me. It has for years.
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73,
Rick KK4GGL
WW7KE
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Posts: 952




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« Reply #111 on: January 17, 2015, 05:42:47 PM »

How's that less than 8% desktop OS working out for your reality?

Opensuse is working of just fine for me. It has for years.

+1

In my personal reality, Linux-based OSes (Mint, Slackware, and Android) have 100% marketshare.  I've been Windows-free since 2000, and I've never owned an Apple product.

In my employer's reality, Linux has about 50% marketshare, since most of us have Windows 7 Pro PCs, but many of us engineers dual-boot or use Linux on older machines that won't run Win7 (we're being told to get rid of XP, ASAP).  We also use both Windows Server and Linux in our products.  Both do their jobs well, but WinServer costs us money and cuts into our profit margin. 

But what in the world does marketshare have to do with ham radio, anyway?   Use whatever works for you.  I don't care what other people run.  Like Windows or Apple?  Knock yourself out.  No skin off my a$$.  Marketshare is Microsoft's, Apple's, and Red Hat's sales departments' and management's problem, not ours.
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He speaks fluent PSK31, in FT8...  One QSO with him earns you 5BDXCC...  His Wouff Hong has two Wouffs... Hiram Percy Maxim called HIM "The Old Man..."  He is... The Most Interesting Ham In The World!
K5TED
Member

Posts: 243




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« Reply #112 on: January 17, 2015, 06:02:39 PM »

It's all about what works. Linux doesn't work for the majority of desktop users, whether private or corporate. It's out there, it's free in some cases, and most users don't want get that intimate with their PC. It can be argued it was never 'given the chance', but retail launches like WalMart tried prove it just doesn't catch on. 

Consider Linux? Sure. Adopt it for everyday desktop use? Not a chance. Does it run the backend for my company's 50 million+ content users? You betcha.

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WW7KE
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Posts: 952




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« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2015, 06:25:57 PM »

It's all about what works. Linux doesn't work for the majority of desktop users, whether private or corporate. It's out there, it's free in some cases, and most users don't want get that intimate with their PC. It can be argued it was never 'given the chance', but retail launches like WalMart tried prove it just doesn't catch on.  

Consider Linux? Sure. Adopt it for everyday desktop use? Not a chance. Does it run the backend for my company's 50 million+ content users? You betcha.

On that, I agree.  The majority of people won't use it on their desktop because there is a bit of a learning curve, even for the simplest of the Linux GUIs.  But the same is true when moving to a Mac or Win 8 from Win 7 or XP.  It was also true when moving from Windows 3.1 to 95.

It didn't catch on, for several reasons.  One was thinly-veiled threats from Microsoft to not sell Windows to anyone who put Linux on any PC product.  Some took that bait (IIRC, Best Buy was one), and some didn't (Dell, Walmart, Fry's).

But the fact that Linux-based GUIs are different from the "traditional" Windows GUI killed sales as well.  That problem also hurt Win 8, although it's since been fixed.

Linux will be used on technical people's desktops more often than the average person's.  That's just a fact of life.  But the days of having to fiddle around with text files to make Linux distros work are far in the past (unless you use Slackware or Gentoo, but those are not designed for the general public).  

A modern Linux system such as Ubuntu or Mint is as easy to set up and use as a modern Windows desktop, and easier as far as I'm concerned than Windows Server -- and I've installed plenty of all of them.  It's just different.  My job requires me to be fluent in both, and I prefer Linux at home where I don't need (or can afford!) Windows-only software like AutoCAD that I use at work.  But to each their own.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 06:28:44 PM by WW7KE » Logged

He speaks fluent PSK31, in FT8...  One QSO with him earns you 5BDXCC...  His Wouff Hong has two Wouffs... Hiram Percy Maxim called HIM "The Old Man..."  He is... The Most Interesting Ham In The World!
W4KYR
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Posts: 1803




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« Reply #114 on: January 17, 2015, 07:21:46 PM »



Interesting developments happened when they did try to market Linux. One would think they would use the most popular and easiest software in those computers. That wasn't the case. Why did Asus pick Xandros as the Linux OS for the Eee Pc which was sold at Best Buy and MicroCenter. Why Xandros? Why not Ubuntu or Fedora?

And why did Walmart sell computers with Linspire (anyone remember that distro?).  Funny thing about Linspire, it was bought out by Xandros...and then right after that Linspire and it's off shoot Freespire was discontinued. Why?

Was Microsoft involved behind the scenes to keep Linux out of the stores and to make sure Linux failed? Were manufacturers, brick and mortar stores were discouraged from offering other operating systems then Windows? Make your own conclusions.

 Read about the relationship with Microsoft and Linspire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linspire .  Now read about Xandros http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xandros

So Linux is a failure in the stores, lets say no one wanted Linux netbooks or Linux desktops because they did not run Windows. OK I'll buy that. Then please explain why Chromebooks are selling like hot cakes? They are not Windows laptops, they don't run Windows. 

So why are Chromebooks  popular and selling yet none of the Linux commercial offerings took off? Maybe a different era now? Maybe Windows 8 has something to do with it? Is it because Google is behind it?

 So would Linux desktops and laptops finally sell now after seeing the success of the Chromebook?  I don't know, probably not unless some major corporation is behind it. I think the last time it was tried, there were missteps and fumbles. I don't think there was a clear cut marketing plan. The whole thing about Xandros is strange.

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K5TED
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Posts: 243




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« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2015, 07:42:43 PM »



Interesting developments happened when they did try to market Linux. One would think they would use the most popular and easiest software in those computers. That wasn't the case. Why did Asus pick Xandros as the Linux OS for the Eee Pc which was sold at Best Buy and MicroCenter. Why Xandros? Why not Ubuntu or Fedora?

And why did Walmart sell computers with Linspire (anyone remember that distro?).  Funny thing about Linspire, it was bought out by Xandros...and then right after that Linspire and it's off shoot Freespire was discontinued. Why?

Was Microsoft involved behind the scenes to keep Linux out of the stores and to make sure Linux failed? Were manufacturers, brick and mortar stores were discouraged from offering other operating systems then Windows? Make your own conclusions.

 Read about the relationship with Microsoft and Linspire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linspire .  Now read about Xandros http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xandros

So Linux is a failure in the stores, lets say no one wanted Linux netbooks or Linux desktops because they did not run Windows. OK I'll buy that. Then please explain why Chromebooks are selling like hot cakes? They are not Windows laptops, they don't run Windows. 

So why are Chromebooks  popular and selling yet none of the Linux commercial offerings took off? Maybe a different era now? Maybe Windows 8 has something to do with it? Is it because Google is behind it?

 So would Linux desktops and laptops finally sell now after seeing the success of the Chromebook?  I don't know, probably not unless some major corporation is behind it. I think the last time it was tried, there were missteps and fumbles. I don't think there was a clear cut marketing plan. The whole thing about Xandros is strange.



Thanks for the chuckle. I read the entire post in the voice of Robert Clotworthy..

'Will aliens resembling the Android insignia fly out of my butt? Will Bill Gates buy WalMart? Is C# the language of whales?'
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W4KYR
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Posts: 1803




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« Reply #116 on: January 17, 2015, 07:56:28 PM »


Thanks for the chuckle. I read the entire post in the voice of Robert Clotworthy..

'Will aliens resembling the Android insignia fly out of my butt? Will Bill Gates buy WalMart? Is C# the language of whales?'


?
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Using Windows 98 For Packet...
N5PG
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« Reply #117 on: January 17, 2015, 08:40:03 PM »


A modern Linux system such as Ubuntu or Mint is as easy to set up and use as a modern Windows desktop


A whole lot faster to install too.

Just wish N1MM came in Linux as well  Grin
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VK6IS
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Posts: 359




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« Reply #118 on: January 17, 2015, 11:11:08 PM »

+1.

even under wine - it sort of works:
https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/browse/name/?app_id=1760
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KK4GGL
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Posts: 1327




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« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2015, 11:26:40 PM »

It's all about what works. Linux doesn't work for the majority of desktop users, whether private or corporate. It's out there, it's free in some cases, and most users don't want get that intimate with their PC. It can be argued it was never 'given the chance', but retail launches like WalMart tried prove it just doesn't catch on.  

Consider Linux? Sure. Adopt it for everyday desktop use? Not a chance. Does it run the backend for my company's 50 million+ content users? You betcha.

On that, I agree.  The majority of people won't use it on their desktop because there is a bit of a learning curve, even for the simplest of the Linux GUIs.  But the same is true when moving to a Mac or Win 8 from Win 7 or XP.  It was also true when moving from Windows 3.1 to 95.

There is at least as much of a learning curve when moving from one Windows version to the next major revision, or moving to MacOS as there is moving to a Linux distribution.

It didn't catch on, for several reasons.  One was thinly-veiled threats from Microsoft to not sell Windows to anyone who put Linux on any PC product.  Some took that bait (IIRC, Best Buy was one), and some didn't (Dell, Walmart, Fry's).

It wasn't thinly veiled. It was one of the things that landed Microsoft in Federal court. As a result of Microsoft's threats, and retaliatory actions, Linux, and other OSes were not pre-loaded on computers. That resulted in application vendors not having the push to put out versions of software that would run on Linux.


But the fact that Linux-based GUIs are different from the "traditional" Windows GUI killed sales as well.  That problem also hurt Win 8, although it's since been fixed.

"Traditional" Gnu/Linux are/were very close to the "traditional" Windows interface. Ubuntu and Gnome have tried to force a "new" interface. They have been getting the same push back as Microsoft. That's why projects like  Mate and Cinnamon exist

Linux will be used on technical people's desktops more often than the average person's.  That's just a fact of life.

Sad, but true.

 But the days of having to fiddle around with text files to make Linux distros work are far in the past (unless you use Slackware or Gentoo, but those are not designed for the general public).  

Also true. These days, when I install a dristro, I usually just push enter a bunch of times, unless servers are installed. Most installers will even create or use /home and /root partitions as a default.

A modern Linux system such as Ubuntu or Mint is as easy to set up and use as a modern Windows desktop, and easier as far as I'm concerned than Windows Server -- and I've installed plenty of all of them.  It's just different.  My job requires me to be fluent in both, and I prefer Linux at home where I don't need (or can afford!) Windows-only software like AutoCAD that I use at work.  But to each their own.
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73,
Rick KK4GGL
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