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Author Topic: Amplifier Price Wars  (Read 73930 times)
W8JX
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Posts: 13268




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« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2014, 12:39:07 PM »

I have no way to find out since it is not publically traded, but I would bet that RF Concepts net corporate profit is less than 5%. And, I think the odds are no better than 50/50 that they will be here 5 or 10 years down the road.


A private company can survive on less with no stock holders to keep happy but I seriously doubt 5%.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
KM4AH
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Posts: 939




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« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2014, 02:02:39 PM »

I have no way to find out since it is not publically traded, but I would bet that RF Concepts net corporate profit is less than 5%. And, I think the odds are no better than 50/50 that they will be here 5 or 10 years down the road.


A private company can survive on less with no stock holders to keep happy but I seriously doubt 5%.

Molly owned 90% of the company and sold it. They had $1 million in sales, orders on the books, and could not scrape up the money to buy parts to build the amps. Stedman or whatever his name is who bought the company is a ham and wealthy. With both of them it was a love for the hobby, not some get rich venture.
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KD8MJR
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« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2014, 02:05:40 PM »

I have no way to find out since it is not publically traded, but I would bet that RF Concepts net corporate profit is less than 5%. And, I think the odds are no better than 50/50 that they will be here 5 or 10 years down the road.


I agree that no company can survive on 5%.
I also think your being very optimistic with that 5-10 year prediction.
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“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)
KM4AH
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Posts: 939




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« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2014, 03:51:03 PM »

I have no way to find out since it is not publically traded, but I would bet that RF Concepts net corporate profit is less than 5%. And, I think the odds are no better than 50/50 that they will be here 5 or 10 years down the road.


I agree that no company can survive on 5%.
I also think your being very optimistic with that 5-10 year prediction.

I'm not talking about profit on any one particular item. I'm talking about net corporate profit at the end of the year. There are many corporations that would think they had died and gone to Heaven if they made net 5% at the end of the year. In the business I was in an electrical wholesalers net profit was on average 2 %
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W8JX
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« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2014, 04:29:51 AM »

I have no way to find out since it is not publically traded, but I would bet that RF Concepts net corporate profit is less than 5%. And, I think the odds are no better than 50/50 that they will be here 5 or 10 years down the road.


I agree that no company can survive on 5%.
I also think your being very optimistic with that 5-10 year prediction.

I'm not talking about profit on any one particular item. I'm talking about net corporate profit at the end of the year. There are many corporations that would think they had died and gone to Heaven if they made net 5% at the end of the year. In the business I was in an electrical wholesalers net profit was on average 2 %

In corporate world profit is kinda a smoke a mirrors term in that the can manipulate bottom line and pay bonuses or offer options that mask proffit. If Alpha is going broke it is because they are living beyond their means and bankrupting company. When Dentron was bought out years ago 5 he new owners took out more than 5 hey put back and it did not last long. They also lost a lot of coin trying to get in rig bussiness.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
KA4WJA
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« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2014, 07:55:23 AM »

Rich,
THANK YOU!!
Thanks for making my day!!

I'm still smiling at what you wrote here!! Smiley
It is a bit comical listening to folks overjoyed that a $9000.00 amp is now a mere $7000.00.  There are one or two hams out there still rolling on the floor. 

Any of these companies have to contend with the fact that their market for high-end products is shrinking.  As real incomes fall and most particularly as retirement incomes fall they will have to reassess their business strategies.  Boomers and Gen X, in just about every study, will not have anything like the income numbers of current retirees many of whom still get that archaic thing called a "company retirement".

Rolex still sells watches, Bentley still sells cars and Alpha still sells amps.  Just not to anyone most people know.
I agree with what you wrote (and I own an Alpha, along with my SB-221 that I built 35 years ago)!!
I'm a fairly cheap son-of-gun, and still use my 37 yr old Drake TR-7 and my 36 yr old Alpha (that I bought used ~ 15 years ago)....
And, surprisingly my OLD Alpha 77 (second owner) is worth more now than what I paid for it.....
But I still don't think I'd pay $7k - $9k for one of these "new" amps!!
Now, if a Heathkit-like company would sell a decent amp w/ pair of 3-500z's for $500....that would be an "amplifier price war" that I'd sit-up and take notice of!!






Tim, I'm wondering if your mis-wrote something here?  (maybe you meant to say that "almost every serious CW contest operator" now has a K3?  'cause the facts out in the real world just don't support what you write here...)
 
Almost every CW operator now has a K3, a rig that was brand new just 5 years ago. Many have more than one K3. I have observed this adoption and now near-ubiquity over the past 5 years. It is truly ubiquitous. We might lament that this is a only a small and narrow market, but the way that it has been adopted en masse all around the world, is just amazing.
I don't discount that the K3 is popular, but my best friend (and a few other close ham friends of mine), although not big contesters, are all very much majority CW ops.....and none of them own a K3!!
My best friend is 90% CW / 10% SSB...and his primary rig is a TS-830s.....with a Heath HW-8 being one of his favs....and to round out his shack he also has a TS-130s, a pair of Drake twins, and some collectors quality Hallicracfters....
Some of my other friends who are also serious CW ops have TR-7's, TS-430s, and one has an IC-7800....
So, as I said above, perhaps you left out the words "serious" and "contester" when describing the ubiquity of the K3?
No worries, just wanted to be clear that in my experience the ubiquity of the K3 isn't quite as pronounced as you mention...




73,
John,   KA4WJA


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KM4AH
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Posts: 939




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« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2014, 08:14:32 AM »

I have no way to find out since it is not publically traded, but I would bet that RF Concepts net corporate profit is less than 5%. And, I think the odds are no better than 50/50 that they will be here 5 or 10 years down the road.


I agree that no company can survive on 5%.
I also think your being very optimistic with that 5-10 year prediction.

I'm not talking about profit on any one particular item. I'm talking about net corporate profit at the end of the year. There are many corporations that would think they had died and gone to Heaven if they made net 5% at the end of the year. In the business I was in an electrical wholesalers net profit was on average 2 %

In corporate world profit is kinda a smoke a mirrors term in that the can manipulate bottom line and pay bonuses or offer options that mask proffit. If Alpha is going broke it is because they are living beyond their means and bankrupting company. When Dentron was bought out years ago 5 he new owners took out more than 5 hey put back and it did not last long. They also lost a lot of coin trying to get in rig bussiness.

I agree that net profit can be manipulated, particularly in a small company. In large companies it amounts to a very small percentage on a big pile of money. The concept that if you cut the officers salaries then you could buy their products 30% cheaper is just hogwash. Competition will not let that happen. If there were big bucks to be made building amplifiers or ham equipment in general investors would be scrambling to start building them as we speak. And, Collins, Drake , Swan, Dentron, Amp Supply, etc. would still be in business. They did not fold because they were making a lot of money. Even if they were mismanaged somebody would have bought them if there was a profit to be made.
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N3QE
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Posts: 5561




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« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2014, 08:35:03 AM »

Tim, I'm wondering if your mis-wrote something here?  (maybe you meant to say that "almost every serious CW contest operator" now has a K3?  'cause the facts out in the real world just don't support what you write here...)

If you look at the table below and get the idea that the K3 is the most popular rig among the contesters (heavy CW bent) and everything else is an also-ran, you would be close. The K3 is popular worldwide and in fact my on-the-air-chatting with CW users who are not contesters, puts it as way more ubiquitous than even the WRTC2014 stats would suggest.

(I myself do not have a K3, I have a TenTec Eagle - doesn't even make it into the also-rans! And since you also brought up some classic rigs, my favorite to operate, I'm on every winter with it, is the Heath HW-16 - a rig aimed squarely at the novice when sold.).

Of the rigs below only a few are luxury-class radios. A couple of them are even cheaper than the K3. I think the luxury-class flagship radios from the YaeComWood will still evolve for a while longer, but to think they are setting direction for the performance/competition rigs would IMHO be a mistake.

http://www.wrtc2014.org/radios-and-software-used/



Summary Table . Radios

K3        75    63.56%
IC7600    6     5.08%
TS590     7     5.93%
FTdx5000  8     6.78%
FT1000MP  6     5.08%
IC7800    4     3.39%
FT1000D   2     1.69%
IC756-3   4     3.39%
IC7700    1     0.85%
FT3000    2     1.69%
TS850     1     0.85%
ORION II  2     1.69%

« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 08:47:25 AM by N3QE » Logged
W8JX
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Posts: 13268




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« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2014, 09:17:32 AM »

And since you also brought up some classic rigs, my favorite to operate, I'm on every winter with it, is the Heath HW-16 - a rig aimed squarely at the novice when sold.).

I wish I had never sold my HW-16 many years ago. It was a solid rig.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
K3VAT
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Posts: 893




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« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2014, 12:15:01 PM »

Another (manual tune) amplifier for the US Market, the OM-Power 2000+ is about to enter the competition (FCC cert pending).  Array Solutions will market this unit as recently revealed on its website (http://arraysolutions.com/).  No US price has been listed, but this amp was available at Friedrichshafen back in June with a discounted price including a 20% value-added-tax of 3300 Euros.  You can read about the specs for this amp at  http://www.om-power.com/om2000plus.

73, Rich, K3VAT
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W4KVW
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Posts: 283




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« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2014, 09:53:58 PM »

The origional post was talking aobut legal limit amplifiers with head room. ALS-1300 and the ACOM 600 have neather.

REALLY? Where did it say anything about Legal Limit Amplifiers? What line was it on? The poster mentioned (2) amplifiers but used them as an example only from what I read.While you are correcting everyone let me help you.It's ORIGINAL,ABOUT,& NEITHER on your incorrectly spelled words in the posting.(You are Welcome)  Shocked  LOL

Clayton
W4KVW
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W3RSW
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Posts: 603




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« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2014, 06:07:03 AM »

You get the Necro Award for late hit.  That was five pages ago.  Grin
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Rick, W3RSW
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