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Author Topic: 18 Gauge Copper Wire Good for Grounding?  (Read 107099 times)
NN4RH
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Posts: 545




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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2014, 02:21:51 PM »

I never said they will fall off by just looking at them.  But, feel free to continue your histrionics.  

Wow. OK. You had me worried. I've been afraid to  look directly at any soldered connections since this thread started.

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W9FIB
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Posts: 2498




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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2014, 06:54:47 PM »

I never said they will fall off by just looking at them.  But, feel free to continue your histrionics.  

I know. I am poking fun at your assertions by over dramatizing. Another words humor. Too bad you didn't catch on.
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73, Stan
Wisdom is knowledge you gain after you know it all.
K1CJS
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Posts: 6280




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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2014, 05:32:56 AM »

A good crimp connection using quality terminal ends will be far superior to a soldered joint for one reason:  The possibility of overheating the joint.  When solder gets hot, it flows--and the joint will separate.  That won't happen with a crimped joint.

One other thing--if you suffer a direct lightning strike, that soldered joint is going to blow apart.  No question.  A properly done crimp joint would hold together far longer.  That may mean the difference between dissipating the charge and limiting the damage or having that charge jumping all over the place looking for a ground point.

A last point.  The NEC prohibits soldered ground connections for just that reason.
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KT4WO
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Posts: 215


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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2014, 04:22:48 PM »

8ga min.(solid..not stranded) then crimp AND silver solder.

Best of both worlds.

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KC2UGV
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Posts: 529




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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2014, 10:19:02 AM »

What grounding are you doing?

If you're trying to an RF ground, put that outside of your house (ie, radials).  If you're doing lightning ground protection, again, outside of your house, and use welded (Not soldered), connections with copper straps.  If it's electrical grounding, the radio should already be grounded, via it's ground power lead.  At that point, make sure all of your gear is connected to a functional, common, electrical safety ground in your house.  Likely, same outlet, or at the least, same circuit.

Or, lastly, if you're grounding because you have a ground loop problem, isolation between your gear.
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K1CJS
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Posts: 6280




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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2014, 11:29:36 AM »

8ga min.(solid..not stranded) then crimp AND silver solder.

Best of both worlds.

The only thing wrong with that is when a lightning ground connection is inspected, solder on a joint is going to be interpreted as a soldered joint even if it is crimped. 

As was said, properly crimped joints don't require solder at all.
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W9FIB
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Posts: 2498




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« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2014, 11:45:19 AM »

A good crimp connection using quality terminal ends will be far superior to a soldered joint for one reason:  The possibility of overheating the joint.  When solder gets hot, it flows--and the joint will separate.  That won't happen with a crimped joint.

One other thing--if you suffer a direct lightning strike, that soldered joint is going to blow apart.  No question.  A properly done crimp joint would hold together far longer.  That may mean the difference between dissipating the charge and limiting the damage or having that charge jumping all over the place looking for a ground point.

A last point.  The NEC prohibits soldered ground connections for just that reason.

Actually I am wrong, however the NEC does NOT prohibit it either. WO was closest to being right.

NEC Article 110.14 Section B says the following... Conductors DO need to be mechanically and electrically secure before soldering. Silver solder is not mentioned.

So I am not perfect. Always willing to learn!

However control wiring can be solder only as long as it is mechanically supported buy other means. (ie back shell clamping etc.) And that is where I translated my error into other things.
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73, Stan
Wisdom is knowledge you gain after you know it all.
KD0SFY
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Posts: 451




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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2014, 02:56:26 PM »

Wrong section when it comes to grounding.  Look at 250.8 .  It specifically states (B) Methods Not Permitted.  Connections or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used.  

BTW, crimping usually doesn't work well on solid wire.  With solid you normally have to use mechanical connectors or exothermic/Cadweld. 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 03:03:20 PM by KD0SFY » Logged
W9FIB
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Posts: 2498




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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2014, 06:30:46 PM »

Wrong section when it comes to grounding.  Look at 250.8 .  It specifically states (B) Methods Not Permitted.  Connections or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used.  

BTW, crimping usually doesn't work well on solid wire.  With solid you normally have to use mechanical connectors or exothermic/Cadweld. 

First of all, guess you did not read too closely, cause that's what I said as they agree on methodology. Do you figure I need to quote every section when I already admitted I was wrong? Or do you just want to argue about it for no reason other then to argue? And where were the code quotes in the beginning? Would have saved a lot of time. Or didn't you think of it till I did?

It was CJS that got me looking at the methodology. Thank you.

Second I said nothing about solid wire. I don't use solid wire. I hate the effort of pulling it.
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73, Stan
Wisdom is knowledge you gain after you know it all.
KD0SFY
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Posts: 451




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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2014, 07:43:59 PM »

Quote
Second I said nothing about solid wire.

I never said it was you who stated anything about solid wire.  Please note the lack of any quotes or attribution in my previous post. 

Yes, you admitted you were wrong, but you cited an incorrect section of the NEC.  The fact is that the only part of the NEC section you cited that says anything about being mechanically secure before being soldered is in the part about splices -- 110.14 (B).  So, again, since we were originally talking about grounds and terminal connectors and not about splices, the pertinent section is not 110.14, but rather 250.8 .

As for the rest of your rant about why I did not quote the code earlier, you are just whining.  I told you previously that inspectors would fail any ground connection that is purely soldered -- that should have been a hint and a half for you that I am talking about the NEC and for you to look it up.  Sadly, it appears that when you finally did, instead of using the table of contents to go to the pertinent section, you just started flipping through the pages until you found something about connectors. 

So, if it makes you feel better to get as mad as a wet hen at me for pointing out that you were wrong, be my guest -- I've got big shoulders, I can handle it.
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KD4LLA
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Posts: 509




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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2014, 11:50:02 PM »

Soldered/ crimped isn't going to make a bit difference when you take a direct lightning hit...

Mike
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K1CJS
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Posts: 6280




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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2014, 06:17:32 AM »

Soldered/ crimped isn't going to make a bit difference when you take a direct lightning hit...

Sorry, but wrong.  A solid mechanical connection will always outlast a soldered connection if and when that connection gets suddenly super-heated.  Although both connections could well be blown apart by a direct hit, the few milliseconds longer that a crimped (mechanical) connection would outlast a soldered (even silver soldered) connection could well mean the difference between superficial damage and more catastrophic damage being done to the installation by the direct hit.
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W9FIB
Member

Posts: 2498




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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2014, 07:25:28 AM »

Quote
Second I said nothing about solid wire.

I never said it was you who stated anything about solid wire.  Please note the lack of any quotes or attribution in my previous post. 

Yes, you admitted you were wrong, but you cited an incorrect section of the NEC.  The fact is that the only part of the NEC section you cited that says anything about being mechanically secure before being soldered is in the part about splices -- 110.14 (B).  So, again, since we were originally talking about grounds and terminal connectors and not about splices, the pertinent section is not 110.14, but rather 250.8 .

As for the rest of your rant about why I did not quote the code earlier, you are just whining.  I told you previously that inspectors would fail any ground connection that is purely soldered -- that should have been a hint and a half for you that I am talking about the NEC and for you to look it up.  Sadly, it appears that when you finally did, instead of using the table of contents to go to the pertinent section, you just started flipping through the pages until you found something about connectors. 

So, if it makes you feel better to get as mad as a wet hen at me for pointing out that you were wrong, be my guest -- I've got big shoulders, I can handle it.

Never mind, your higher and mightier then me. Guess since you just want to say it is a rant makes you better then me. So be it. There is a fix for those kind of people.
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73, Stan
Wisdom is knowledge you gain after you know it all.
K2GWK
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Posts: 707


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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2014, 01:50:23 PM »

Soldered/ crimped isn't going to make a bit difference when you take a direct lightning hit...

Sorry, but wrong.  A solid mechanical connection will always outlast a soldered connection if and when that connection gets suddenly super-heated.  Although both connections could well be blown apart by a direct hit, the few milliseconds longer that a crimped (mechanical) connection would outlast a soldered (even silver soldered) connection could well mean the difference between superficial damage and more catastrophic damage being done to the installation by the direct hit.

I agree with KD4LLA. When we lived in western Suffolk County a Telephone Pole took a direct hit during a thunderstorm in front of the house next to ours. It scared the bejesus out of the wife and I because our house shook violently and the sound of the explosion was deafening. The next morning I watched the local utility replace the pole (it was badly damaged) and it was plain to see that the conductor that carried the lightening to ground and any semblance of a connector was vaporized. I will tell you that I hope never to come that close to a strike again.
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Guy
Lawn Guyland, New York

K2GWK Website
K1CJS
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Posts: 6280




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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2014, 07:02:20 PM »

...When we lived in western Suffolk County a Telephone Pole took a direct hit during a thunderstorm in front of the house next to ours. It scared the bejesus out of the wife and I because our house shook violently and the sound of the explosion was deafening. The next morning I watched the local utility replace the pole (it was badly damaged) and it was plain to see that the conductor that carried the lightening to ground and any semblance of a connector was vaporized. I will tell you that I hope never to come that close to a strike again.

When a utility pole is put in, the ground wire is usually attached to the pole base and run into the ground--no ground rod.  No connection there to fail.  In any event, yes, a direct hit like you experienced can do as you said, but if the conductor is not instantly destroyed, what I stated comes into play.  The melting point of solder is much lower than that of the ground conductor or the attaching terminal, so a soldered connection will fail sooner than a mechanical one.  That is why the NEC does not allow soldered grounding connections on antenna installations.

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