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Author Topic: What makes "old" or "vintage" expensive?  (Read 99868 times)
W9FIB
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Posts: 2529




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« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2015, 06:49:13 PM »

Just like the people that bring old junk to "Pawn Stars", just because it is old and they may think it is rare and collectable does not mean it is worth a lot of money. Even though the owner thinks it is worth its weight in gold. But as long as people will pay the high prices, they can still ask for it.
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73, Stan
Wisdom is knowledge you gain after you know it all.
KA4LFP
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Posts: 273




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« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2015, 06:44:13 PM »



This I agree with ---

Several posters on here have done the math to compare the cost of a Tempo or some other rig in 70s dollars to modern dollars...

And that's not bad math to do --- BUT -- the OP is not talking about buying a NEW
Tempo 2020, with all it's capacitors in perfect non-leaky state, all the resistors bang on value, freshly aligned, all the little bits of peel-off plastic on all the meters, yada yada.

I think he's talking about why in the heck a radio THIRTY YEARS OLD with THIRTY YEARS
of usage on it by God knows what sort of ham loading up fencepoles, and everything else, leaving it connected during thunderstorms, and so on ---
but still in decent LOOKING shape....

... costs MORE than the new radio.

And on that POV, I think he has a point ...

Now -- I understand that the below is HOW IT IS --- but I'm not talking about reality, I'm talking about what SHOULD be reality...

To me, it does _not_ make sense to see an HF radio at a hamfest sitting on a table, sold with NO warranty,  with no documented and validated restoration work done, selling for 80% to 125% of new just because the original box is sitting under the table (covered in dust from the 30+ years it spent in an attic - saw one $350 box with mouse crap in it at Shelby this summer )

No one would even dream of buying a forty year old Ford Econoline van with 250,000 miles on it and pay the effectively new price for it in 2015 dollars  for it.....Any buyer rightly would expect that since it was USED and the treatment was largely unknown without a complete teardown and rebuild,
that the value was understandably far less than the new price than a new Econoline van.


Yes-- the market will ask what the market will pay.
But I think many many hams and sellers are nuts for selling and buying very very used
un-restored radios as if they were brand new (Collins and other true collectibles excepted - no one expects to buy a 1950 Mustang for $200 either)

It really just "is what it is'.

But there is no logic to it, when you consider how many of the HF rigs I've seen out there that were highly priced, yet were widely known to have parts made of unobtainium, especially the later rigs with various ICs in them that are totally unavailable and have a pretty high failure rate after 20-30 years. There's one rig in particular that I can't recall the model of, which has old LEDs for the display, which all fade because they were overdriven, and there is NO fixing it.

Yet I see them all the time for upwards of $250-300 ....  and every ONE of them says
"un-tested as-is no returns" precisely for that reason, most likely -- the rig has begun to show the first signs of that impending LED doom...and very likely knows from calling the OEM that the display is not available, and no used rig is going to have a better part.


I don't get it as to why so many hams (based on what the market will evidently 'bear' in prices)
will buy an HF radio for inflated prices when they would NEVER pay the comparable price
for a car with 250,000 miles on it because they would _know_ they don't trust that $3500 transmission job that might be coming in six months....

So I only buy LOW priced radios from people that will honestly disclose issues, after I've researched a problem radio to know I might be able to fix it.
Or, I'll buy a radio at a decent price from someone I know after I've tested it myself...









.... The old 2 meter gear sold, but not at hyper inflated value like the old HF gear I see at hamfests
and fleabay.

I am surprised when my HF gear still commands a high dollar value even when it is old to very old. Like someone
said, 'Hams are crazy!' when it comes to boat anchors. Even trash I wouldn't pay $20 for, is selling over $100 on fleabay, and at hamfests......
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KA4LFP
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Posts: 273




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« Reply #77 on: January 14, 2015, 07:09:06 PM »

That is Frisco 1522 - a 4-8-8-2

The drive wheels on that engine are TALLER than 6' man.
The drive shafts are longer than a Ford F-150, and weigh about half as much as the whole truck...

Here's another picture to give some scale - This is #611, built for Norfolk and Western WV coal hauling route.
The people in the picture are less than 1/3 the height of the engine!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dazon_blue/3743817266/

I saw her in Saluda in 1992, with a brand new GE SD-60 along to provide the required brake pipe pressure for the legendary Saluda grade (steepest rail grade in North America)


The top-of-the-line biggest-engine-made GE-60 was 1/4 the size of 611!!!  And most of what you see on rails nowadays is an SD40
for regional runs... You think the modern diesel engines are big, go stand next to 611,
or her big brother, the Challenger... 
The Challenger is as big as FOUR modern diesel engines, and about 6 boxcars long.

Up here in the mountains of WNC, we quite literally could hear the steam whistle
on the 611 from more than THIRTY MILES --- a diesel horn won't travel more than about 5 miles.




BTW:  Here's one image I'm glad someone took:



Pretty sure that's a Baldwin Big Boy and if you look closely at the cab I think I see someone with a blue shirt... For the sake of perspective that is one very, very large piece of machinery.
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G3RZP
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Posts: 1319




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« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2015, 11:57:24 PM »

You mean a 4-8-2, not a 4-8-8-2.

Working steam locos these days fetch as much in real terms as they originally cost to manufacture......and if you want to spend money quickly, they are an excellent way to do it!
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KA4LFP
Member

Posts: 273




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« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2015, 04:42:46 AM »


Thanks Peter -- you are correct, 1522 is a 4-8-2.

They are restoring #611 at Stanley Steam shops in Spencer, NC
where they have worked on steam engines since before the Civil War.

You are right about the costs!
http://fireup611.org/
They are raising $5 million dollars, $3.5 of which is for the restoration alone!
And #611 was put away RUNNING.... a non-running engine is even more!

To try to get this thread _a little bit_ back on track (pun intended) Grin

#611 cost $251,000 to build in 1950, as the pinnacle of American steam engines.
No more development or design was done on steam engines after that.

She's now worth upwards of $4 million...

But we're talking about a steam locomotive,
not a Heathkit HW-101 built by who knows who ;-)


You mean a 4-8-2, not a 4-8-8-2.

Working steam locos these days fetch as much in real terms as they originally cost to manufacture......and if you want to spend money quickly, they are an excellent way to do it!

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G3RZP
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Posts: 1319




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« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2015, 07:38:44 AM »

G4VVZ is the Chairman of the Sir Nigel Gresley Preservation Trust - 'Sir Nigel Gresley', 60007, named after the designer, is of the same class as 'Mallard' which holds the world steam speed record. Around $800,000 is required for an overhaul this year to keep it in running order. Cynicism suggests that things will be found that push that well over the $1 million....

Here, rigs of the 1970s/80s era which sold for around £200 then will fetch, for a good one, around the same now. FT102s, despite their known problems, fetch quite a bit more in proportion to their original price, but they do have RF performance which is generally competitive with today's rigs, and more so if you fix the design faults.
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KC2QYM
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Posts: 958




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« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2015, 12:02:50 PM »

Uh oh...here come the train geeks to throw us off track...Pun intended  Smiley
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N0NB
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Posts: 154


WWW

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« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2015, 07:26:48 PM »

Did someone mention Big BoySmiley

Restoration currently in progress.  I don't know if it will ever come down here, though.

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73, de Nate
Bremen, KS

SKCC 6225
W9FIB
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Posts: 2529




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« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2015, 08:05:47 PM »

Yep looks like the topic got derailed.
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73, Stan
Wisdom is knowledge you gain after you know it all.
AC5UP
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Posts: 4546




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« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2015, 08:17:03 PM »

Mission Accomplished.............





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KA4LFP
Member

Posts: 273




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« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2015, 08:34:54 PM »

And so, my work here is done  Grin

Considering we were going around in circles anyway...
And I didn't _start_ the train derailment, I don't think....




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W9FIB
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Posts: 2529




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« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2015, 03:03:26 AM »

Now that is a train wreck if I ever saw one! Great find!
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73, Stan
Wisdom is knowledge you gain after you know it all.
N0NB
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Posts: 154


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« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2015, 05:21:57 AM »

Now that is a train wreck if I ever saw one! Great find!

Yeah, but it's backwards!

Maybe that's the point?   Huh

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73, de Nate
Bremen, KS

SKCC 6225
KA4LFP
Member

Posts: 273




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« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2015, 05:56:09 AM »

Heh.. I didn't even notice that! paid no attention to the lettering on that boxcar, and didn't realize it said Burlington Northern.

Maybe the original Photoshop job flipped it on purpose like that to make a 'thread off track' imagery,
or maybe it's just a mistake.
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KA4LFP
Member

Posts: 273




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« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2015, 06:13:31 AM »

Attempting to set a few things back on track (pun intended)
..

I don't often buy a used rig until I've looked for weeks on Ebait, waiting for a reasonable price.

Picked up a Yaesu FT-101EX for less than $150, just by being patient.
But there sure were lots of them out there going for upwards of $450-500.
Now some of those had been 'restored', allegedly to perfect condition by guys who do that full time.
Those, I would pay that price for, I suppose.

But there were lots of less honest people trying to score on the same pricing by hinting vaguely that
they had "tested a bit" on their radio, and so their radio was "obviously" vintage, restored, "collector quality"
.. NOT!!

I vastly prefer buying a radio that a seller is honest and upfront about minor problems, etc,

Telling me 'minor wear' and showing a couple of photos is NOT telling me about the function of the radio,
and to me, if you can't be bothered to test a radio, you shouldn't be selling it for 95% of the price of someone who HAS put a fair bit of effort into checking out a radio.

And I know that some people don't have the right antennas, aren't a ham, etc.
But they can certainly FIND one in their area who can help...

I just don't feel like feeding the trolls on Ebait who want to sell junk for high prices, untested and as-is, with lots of words like "vintage" and "collector quality" and "rare estate find" and all that nonsense,
yet don't want to test and check out a radio (with a dim bulb tester or variac)...

I wish buyers would not reward such bad behavior, and effectively force _down_ prices for sellers
who attempt to auction high priced 'as-is' and 'untested' old gear that is of unknown functionality.


People should treat buying secondhand radios EXACTLY like they would treat buying a used car-
if you buy it without starting it up and driving it (so to speak, with across-the-Internet taken into account)
you should not PAY as much for it.

And as such, if the seller doesn't do some proper testing and validation and STAND BEHIND what they've done
(like with a warranty for  "no-DOA but problems as described arrival")
then buy the radio at a price as if you were buying a 20 year old car that would not start and  was sitting in weeds that you were going to tow to your house to restore.

Conversely, if the seller puts forth effort and provides measured test results on a Bird or scope, and even
posts video of the rig running and receiving, that should be rewarded with a good bit more money..

It's just common sense to me --

But time and again, I see sellers expecting high prices for unproven old equipment that may not work at all,
and I see buyers who are willing to pay too much for a pig in a poke...which just rewards those kinds of sellers...

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