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Author Topic: 60 ghz WiFi is coming  (Read 10104 times)
W8JX
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« on: October 13, 2014, 06:03:59 AM »

Samsung has been experamenting with the 802.11ad standard laid done in 2012. It allows the use of intelligent highly directive antenna arrays in a very compact for and the abilty of several devices to work side by side without interference due to active antenna control. It offers real world transfer rates of over a 1/2 Gbyte a second. Samsung will start selling hardware for it next year and main stream deployment in 2016. To put it in perspective, giga bit LAN moves up to 125 Mbytes/sec and 802.11ad is 4 times faster and has potential to grow to 4 Gbytes a second and abilty to download a hi def movie in 1 second. Wave length is approximately 1 mm.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
KD0REQ
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2014, 09:01:06 AM »

when I work with field techs in Colorado, frequently the mountains move a little bit and their cell phone signal drops.  the techs say they didnt...

with that 801.11ad, all it takes is one dust particle turning halfway around, and you have a fade out.  the way out is to have hot spots every few inches.

which is nice if Samsung is selling the hardware, but sux for the rest of us.  imagine trying to watch the football game with your DirectTV HD dish strapped to your back.

that technology looks to me like the new microwave, point-to-point service.
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W8JX
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2014, 09:33:20 AM »

when I work with field techs in Colorado, frequently the mountains move a little bit and their cell phone signal drops.  the techs say they didnt...

with that 801.11ad, all it takes is one dust particle turning halfway around, and you have a fade out.  the way out is to have hot spots every few inches.

which is nice if Samsung is selling the hardware, but sux for the rest of us.  imagine trying to watch the football game with your DirectTV HD dish strapped to your back.

that technology looks to me like the new microwave, point-to-point service.

From what I have read the key to it is active electronically controlled antennas on both ends that short wave lengths allow in compact packages and it is updated 100's of times a second. Nodes will have several of these arrays that allows it to better track client. In 1969 they used 5.5ghz SSB for men on moon and future moon missions. Today's technology will make 60 GHz doable. Given the demand for wireless bandwidth and lack of spectrum on 2.4 GHz and wide spectrum needed for high data rates 60 GHz has promise. Right now the fastest real world reliable WiFi is 802.11ac which is 5 GHz and can reach up to 1 gbit a second (125 Mbytes) limit. The 5ghz band has far more space than 2.4 GHz band which allow faster real world speeds unlike 802.11 g/N that basically need full spectrum in clear to approach lab test speeds. It will be interesting to see how 802.11ad plays out next few years.
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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
G3RZP
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Posts: 1103




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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2014, 10:27:11 AM »

20+ years ago, when 802.11 was young, I was involved with it. There actually were some RF people who went, but some digital guys had no clue about RF - and vice versa. Marketing people wanted RANGE. At least 100 metres indoors, and 1 Mb/s was more than enough. So we produced a 1Mb/s 2.4GHz standard with which you could get good range - across from Santa Cruz to Monterey, (a LOS sea path for those who don't know California) using simple helical antennas. The problem then was that radio waves didn't travel fast enough and the ACK transmission was too late....

Then marketing suddenly discovered that the market didn't want 100metre range - it wanted speed.....

And who did they blame for getting it wrong? Engineering, of course!

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W8JX
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2014, 11:41:38 AM »

20+ years ago, when 802.11 was young, I was involved with it. There actually were some RF people who went, but some digital guys had no clue about RF - and vice versa. Marketing people wanted RANGE. At least 100 metres indoors, and 1 Mb/s was more than enough. So we produced a 1Mb/s 2.4GHz standard with which you could get good range - across from Santa Cruz to Monterey, (a LOS sea path for those who don't know California) using simple helical antennas. The problem then was that radio waves didn't travel fast enough and the ACK transmission was too late....

Then marketing suddenly discovered that the market didn't want 100metre range - it wanted speed.....

And who did they blame for getting it wrong? Engineering, of course!



The problem was the time constant in 802.11b/g standard. It was such that it quit at a certain range regardless of signal. 802.16 Wimax used a different time constant as well as higher power that allowed hand shaking at greater ranges. It is possible to still maximize range with 802.11g by forcing b mode and using 11mbit max  speed and 2 mbit for max range. You can do same with 802.11a  with  6 or 9 mbit mode.
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K0JEG
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2014, 07:51:46 PM »

This will be used as a replacement for things like HDMI cables and other device to device connections in the same room, although if the price gets low enough for multiple devices in a home they could all be tied together using a GB Ethernet wired LAN.
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G3RZP
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 02:58:00 AM »

>The problem was the time constant in 802.11b/g standard.<

Same problem appears with GSM. There were - maybe still are - remote places in northern Sweden and Finland  where the nearest GSM base station is too far away and they used NMT450 analogue with gain antennas to get telephone service.

Digital is not always the best......
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N9FB
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Posts: 2329




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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2014, 06:03:52 AM »

Quote from: G3RZP
Digital is not always the best......

[sarcasm mode fully engaged]

how DARE you sir!  that's blasphemy!  Cheesy
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W8JX
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Posts: 13268




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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2014, 06:13:40 AM »

This will be used as a replacement for things like HDMI cables and other device to device connections in the same room, although if the price gets low enough for multiple devices in a home they could all be tied together using a GB Ethernet wired LAN.

A giga bit wired LAN is a good bit slower than 60 ghz WiFi. They have set aside 4 channels at 57.24, 59.4, 61.56 and 63.72 ghz and each is 2.18ghz wide to be able to move a lot of data.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 07:02:50 AM by W8JX » Logged

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Ham since 1969....  Old School 20wpm REAL Extra Class..
G3RZP
Member

Posts: 1103




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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2014, 07:45:44 AM »

K9AIM

What do RF engineers called digital engineers?

"Bit freaks!"

What do bit freaks call RF engineers?

While standing smartly to attention, "SIR!"
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W5SRT
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Posts: 416




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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2014, 10:25:17 AM »

K9AIM

What do RF engineers called digital engineers?

"Bit freaks!"

What do bit freaks call RF engineers?

While standing smartly to attention, "SIR!"

Uhm, yeah, I'm gonna have to just go ahead and disagree with that.

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G3RZP
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Posts: 1103




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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2014, 03:21:43 PM »

Bit freaks would, wouldn't they?

Back in 1986 at RF Expo East in the Marriott Hotel in Copley Place in Boston, I was repeating (by request) my RF Expo West lecture on 'Intermodulation, phase noise and dynamic range in receivers'. I made the crack that 'I've nothing against digital engineers - it's just that if I had a daughter, I wouldn't want her to marry one of them!'

And a voice from the audience (G4CLF who had been best man at my wedding) called out

"Why not? YOU did!"


..........and he's right.
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N9FB
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Posts: 2329




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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2014, 09:14:10 PM »

Quote from: G3RZP

What do RF engineers called digital engineers?

"Bit freaks!"

What do bit freaks call RF engineers?

While standing smartly to attention, "SIR!"

and you -- an RF engineer -- married a bit freak Huh 

Twain was right, truth IS stranger than fiction!  Cheesy

(just teasing you)

Quote from: Mark Twain
“Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.”
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G3RZP
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Posts: 1103




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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2014, 02:32:34 AM »

But how many bit freaks do you know who know what a Smith chart is and how it is used?
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AB5S
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Posts: 32




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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2014, 08:14:23 AM »

( AB5S put down club and scratch head.... Undecided
    Deez guys talk voodoo witch juujuu stuff... Me no unnerstan. Huh
      Me go start dynamotor.... make fire in magic bottles.
         Push shiny beeper thingie... ether mojo bring me friends.
            Me unnerstan dis.  Dis good.
                        Me happy..... )
Grin
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 08:16:58 AM by AB5S » Logged
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