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Author Topic: FTDI Reportedly Bricking Devices Using Competitors' Chips.  (Read 38695 times)
NK7Z
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« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2014, 05:32:31 PM »

B
Again BLAME VENDOR that sold it. They warrant it not FTDI.

And how is the vendor that sold the cable supposed to know?
There is a "thing" in business called "due diligence"  that is how...  Look it up my friend. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_diligence
See the section under commercial property...  Really...  The seller should be looking into what they sell...

I think you might want to start reading the various reports about the situation. Regardless, you are welcome to your opinion.
I am just answering your question about how a business should know what it is selling...  Again...  It is called due diligence. 

BTW: I have been reading the reports about this, your implication I have not is as unwarranted as your bemoaning the loss of your cable...  So far there is no proof this was intentional...  Just people overreacting to it.  Give it some time...  If if the vendor gets convicted of doing this by intent, it will cost them a bundle, if not, then all the bemoaning will be for naught.
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Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
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KK4GGL
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« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2014, 07:10:02 PM »

So far there is no proof this was intentional...  Just people overreacting to it.  Give it some time...  If if the vendor gets convicted of doing this by intent, it will cost them a bundle, if not, then all the bemoaning will be for naught.

They wrote the driver to set the PID to 0 on non-FTDI chips (intentional), and then submitted the update to Microsoft to be included in the automatic updates (intentional).

FTDI has now removed the update from automatic updates, and hast stated they are working on someting "non-invasive", which shows that the original update was invasive.

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Rick KK4GGL
NK7Z
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« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2014, 10:23:26 PM »

So far there is no proof this was intentional...  Just people overreacting to it.  Give it some time...  If if the vendor gets convicted of doing this by intent, it will cost them a bundle, if not, then all the bemoaning will be for naught.

They wrote the driver to set the PID to 0 on non-FTDI chips (intentional), and then submitted the update to Microsoft to be included in the automatic updates (intentional).

FTDI has now removed the update from automatic updates, and hast stated they are working on someting "non-invasive", which shows that the original update was invasive.

Neither you nor I know why they set the ID to zero, we can only speculate...  Once there is proof of intent all questions will be answered, until then, we both live in a world where innocence is assumed, and guilt must be proved.  Guilt has not been proved, so you must assume innocence...  Else, FTDI could sue YOU for stealing their product-- again, be careful what you wish for...  So until then, all of your bemoaning them for this is mute.  Only the courts will settle this, and that is exactly how it should be, we have decades and decades of case law which help sort these sorts of thing out. 

You really should ask the vendor you got the cable from for a replacement, it will let the vendor know they should be doing better due diligence if they sell something, thus protecting YOU better.  If on the other hand you bought the cable directly, (like on eBay), for some ridiculously low price from a vendor in China, then you failed to perform the correct due diligence, and now you have paid a price for that failure. 
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Dave
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W8JX
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« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2014, 03:28:23 AM »

Neither you nor I know why they set the ID to zero, we can only speculate..

No speculation needed. It is set to zero because there is no FTDI device with a PID of zero so no driver will load because none can be found for that PID.
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KK4GGL
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« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2014, 05:25:21 AM »

So far there is no proof this was intentional...  Just people overreacting to it.  Give it some time...  If if the vendor gets convicted of doing this by intent, it will cost them a bundle, if not, then all the bemoaning will be for naught.

They wrote the driver to set the PID to 0 on non-FTDI chips (intentional), and then submitted the update to Microsoft to be included in the automatic updates (intentional).

FTDI has now removed the update from automatic updates, and hast stated they are working on someting "non-invasive", which shows that the original update was invasive.

Neither you nor I know why they set the ID to zero, we can only speculate...  Once there is proof of intent all questions will be answered, until then, we both live in a world where innocence is assumed, and guilt must be proved.  Guilt has not been proved, so you must assume innocence...  Else, FTDI could sue YOU for stealing their product-- again, be careful what you wish for...  So until then, all of your bemoaning them for this is mute.  Only the courts will settle this, and that is exactly how it should be, we have decades and decades of case law which help sort these sorts of thing out. 

You really should ask the vendor you got the cable from for a replacement, it will let the vendor know they should be doing better due diligence if they sell something, thus protecting YOU better.  If on the other hand you bought the cable directly, (like on eBay), for some ridiculously low price from a vendor in China, then you failed to perform the correct due diligence, and now you have paid a price for that failure. 

You are welcome to your opinion.
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Rick KK4GGL
KD8MJR
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« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2014, 11:17:57 AM »

I have not read the whole of this thread so I do not know what all the Fuss is about. But,
FTDI has already admitted they bricked the chips.

I suggest you watch this video by Dave. In it FTDI admits they bricked them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU66as4Bbds

Although I think Dave's analysis  between the 15min - 18min of why so many fake chips are used is very biased.  We all know that 90% of it is simply a cash saving move by product producers.

Personally I feel very conflicted about this, on one hand we all say we want the Chinese to stop ripping off our stuff and this method works really well at achieving that goal.  On the other hand I don't want the stuff that I have already purchased to go belly up.

73's
Rob




« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 11:23:09 AM by KD8MJR » Logged

“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)
NK7Z
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« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2014, 11:34:15 AM »

I have not read the whole of this thread so I do not know what all the Fuss is about. But,
FTDI has already admitted they bricked the chips.

I suggest you watch this video by Dave. In it FTDI admits they bricked them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU66as4Bbds

Although I think Dave's analysis  between the 15min - 18min of why so many fake chips are used is very biased.  We all know that 90% of it is simply a cash saving move by product producers.

Personally I feel very conflicted about this, on one hand we all say we want the Chinese to stop ripping off our stuff and this method works really well at achieving that goal.  On the other hand I don't want the stuff that I have already purchased to go belly up.

73's
Rob





We are discussing intent, not if the chips were bricked...  So far no proved intent.
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Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
KD8MJR
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Posts: 5557




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« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2014, 02:23:50 PM »

We are discussing intent, not if the chips were bricked...  So far no proved intent.

Did you watch the whole Video??
In the second half FTDI made the Intent very clear with their twitter posts.
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G8YMW
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« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2014, 02:54:05 PM »

If thats the case, then FTDI are leaving themselves wide open to compensation claims for criminal damage.
BTW does anybody know this was "Interlectual Property" theft and not something reverse engineered (I'm thinking BIOS chips in PCs, how come IBM haven't litigated on this)
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73 de Tony
Windows 10:  Making me profane since March 2017
KD8MJR
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Posts: 5557




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« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2014, 03:23:10 PM »

Please people watch the video.  Dave talks about legal damages, but the fact is that it's going to be really hard for any company to take FTDI to court when the same company is only having customer problems because they knowingly used illegal counterfeit chips in their products. 
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NK7Z
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« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2014, 03:38:34 PM »

We are discussing intent, not if the chips were bricked...  So far no proved intent.

Did you watch the whole Video??
In the second half FTDI made the Intent very clear with their twitter posts.

No...  FTDI in fact goes far out of their way to NOT accept responsibility for intentionally bricking anything...  They guy wearing the shirt that says "I only give negative feedback" however says over and over they admitted it, when they did not... 

The courts will sort this out, if FTDI actually admitted to intentionally bricking things, they will end in court and lose...  It will be interesting to see what happens... 

My feelings on what will happen...

1.  FTDI wins no matter what happens...
     a.  A bunch of fake chips died.
     b.  A very pointed message got sent to vendors.
     c.  FTDI also sent the message they are not going to take counterfeiting anymore.
2.  No one will remember this in a year or so, and FTDI will be selling more chips than today.

All in all FTDI will probably not even get sued.  This was all clearly orchestrated by lawyers to cause as much of an issue as possible over counterfeit chips, while reducing the risk to FTDI as much as possible.
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Dave
Amateur Radio: RFI help, Reviews, Setup information, and more...
https://www.nk7z.net
KD8MJR
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Posts: 5557




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« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2014, 04:44:10 PM »

No...  FTDI in fact goes far out of their way to NOT accept responsibility for intentionally bricking anything...  They guy wearing the shirt that says "I only give negative feedback" however says over and over they admitted it, when they did not...  

At the 14:36 mark on the video Mike from Mike's Electronics is responding to a message from FTDI that stated that the users should have read the Download agreement before running the driver.

Mike Responds:
Nobody Reads that stuff.  Ok not to work with fakes and show a message.  But breaking peoples stuff without warning is unacceptable.

FTDI Responds:
So are counterfeit IC's. They're destroying innovation in the industry. Please ensure Gen IC's before using FTDI Drivers.

Then we have this:
http://hackaday.com/2014/10/24/ftdi-screws-up-backs-down/

Someone has reversed engineered the driver code to show how it does a check then bricks the device if it fails.

Now I am no lawyer but that conversation seems to be a clear admission that they are "breaking peoples stuff" and any lawyer worth his salt would have experts show that the code does indeed do that.

Not to mention the fact that FTDI would have to explain why they had Twitter delete all of their early conversations on the subject.

Quote
The courts will sort this out, if FTDI actually admitted to intentionally bricking things, they will end in court and lose...  It will be interesting to see what happens...  

No as I said earlier I don't think FTDI could lose a court case because no one in their right mind is going to sue someone for destroying a counterfeit product.

Quote
My feelings on what will happen...

1.  FTDI wins no matter what happens...
     a.  A bunch of fake chips died.
     b.  A very pointed message got sent to vendors.
     c.  FTDI also sent the message they are not going to take counterfeiting anymore.
2.  No one will remember this in a year or so, and FTDI will be selling more chips than today.

All in all FTDI will probably not even get sued.  This was all clearly orchestrated by lawyers to cause as much of an issue as possible over counterfeit chips, while reducing the risk to FTDI as much as possible.

I don't have any love for the Chinese and their constant  theft of other peoples property, so I am a bit conflicted.  I think FTDI should have done what they are doing now instead of bricking peoples devices.

As for the future of FTDI, I would be a bit worried.  The Chinese seem to have a mentality that if you mess with them they will make you pay 10 fold as a warning to others.  I would not be surprised to see FTDI have numerous problems in the future.  After all we keep forgetting this is a communist country we are dealing with! They could simply dissuade any local factories from building product that use FTDI chips.  Since the Chinese make 90% of the electronic products in the world that would devastate FTDI
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 05:01:47 PM by KD8MJR » Logged

“A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”  (Mark Twain)
NK7Z
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« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2014, 05:12:54 PM »

No...  FTDI in fact goes far out of their way to NOT accept responsibility for intentionally bricking anything...  They guy wearing the shirt that says "I only give negative feedback" however says over and over they admitted it, when they did not... 

At the 14:36 mark on the video Mike from Mike's Electronics is responding to a message from FTDI that stated that the users should have read the Download agreement before running the driver.

Mike Responds:
Nobody Reads that stuff.  Ok not to work with fakes and show a message.  But breaking peoples stuff without warning is unacceptable.

FTDI Responds:
So are counterfeit IC's. They're destroying innovation in the industry. Please ensure Gen IC's before using FTDI Drivers.

So as I said, FTDI did not admit to intentionally bricking anything.  They say you should read the user agreement, not they intentionally bricked anything.  Thank you for proving my point.

Then we have this:
http://hackaday.com/2014/10/24/ftdi-screws-up-backs-down/

Someone has reversed engineered the driver code to show how it does a check then bricks the device it it fails.
Still no proof of intent...  Again, thank you for proving my point...  FTDI has not admitted to intentionally bricking a device.  They may have done this for reasons we do not know yet.  For you to assume it was to brick a device, you must know everything they did an thought about this code. 

Now I am no lawyer but that conversation seems to be a clear admission that they are "breaking peoples stuff" and any lawyer worth his salt would have experts show that the code does indeed do that.
No...  It seems to be a clear implication that FTDI may have bricked the chips intentionally.  As I pointed out upthread, FTDI is innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent.

Not to mention the fact that FTDI would have to explain why they had Twitter delete all of their early conversations on the subject.
Looks bad, but proves nothing...  Again, innocent until proven guilty.

Quote
The courts will sort this out, if FTDI actually admitted to intentionally bricking things, they will end in court and lose...  It will be interesting to see what happens... 

No as I said earlier I don't think FTDI could lose a court case because no one in their right mind is going to sue someone for destroying a counterfeit product.
As I said, this is a win for FDTI no matter what happens...

Quote
My feelings on what will happen...

1.  FTDI wins no matter what happens...
     a.  A bunch of fake chips died.
     b.  A very pointed message got sent to vendors.
     c.  FTDI also sent the message they are not going to take counterfeiting anymore.
2.  No one will remember this in a year or so, and FTDI will be selling more chips than today.

All in all FTDI will probably not even get sued.  This was all clearly orchestrated by lawyers to cause as much of an issue as possible over counterfeit chips, while reducing the risk to FTDI as much as possible.

I don't have any love for the Chinese and their constant  theft of other peoples property, so I am a bit conflicted.  I think FTDI should have done what they are doing now instead of bricking peoples devices.
Nor I, and it would not surprose me to see that FDTI actually did intentionally brick the chips, but-- in our society, they are still innocent until proven guilty.

As for the future of FTDI, I would be a bit worried.  The Chinese seem to have a mentality that if you mess with them they will make you pay 10 fold as a warning to others.  I would not be surprised to see FTDI have numerous problems in the future.  After all we keep forgetting this is a communist country we are dealing with! They could simply dissuade any local factories from building product that uses FTDI chips.  Since the Chinese make 90% of the electronic products in the world that would devastate FTDI
I have not thought of that aspect, you may well be right, the Chinese have long memories, and a history of exactly what you describe...  It will be interesting to see what happens in this...
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Dave
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K5TED
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Posts: 243




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« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2014, 05:49:05 PM »

Don't buy cheap ripoffs of FTDI from the Chinese. If you do, you deserve the brick.

A 'clone' is not a 'competitor'. It is theft. You bought stolen tech. Why did you update the driver? Was it not working properly? Maybe that's because it is stolen tech.

You buy cheap ebay USB to Serial devices that point you to the seller website for drivers, you are probably buying stolen tech.

Stop whining and pony up for real tech, or buy another $9.95 free shipping from Hong Kong device and move on.

BTW, Widcomm and CSR have been denying driver updates for stolen tech bluetooth devices for years.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 06:00:50 PM by K5TED » Logged
KD8MJR
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« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2014, 06:01:36 PM »

Maybe I am reading something else.

Mike says:
Breaking peoples stuff without warning is unacceptable

FTDI Replies
So are counterfeit IC's

Seems to me like they are admitting that they broke the stuff.

All of that really does not matter when you have source code that clearly shows that if it's not an FTDI chip then go ahead and kill it.

As I said I am all for stopping the Chinese and the theft of intellectual property, but I think FTDI could have approached this from several different angles that would have been better.

1) Let the driver install but put up a Nag Screen every time the PC is turned on that lets you know your attached product has counterfeit chips. This would have sent the companies using these chips into a tail spin and would have taught them a lesson.  The way FTDI has done it has caused them to have to pull the driver without affecting too many people.  If they had done it the other way the driver would still be sitting on windows downloads and millions more would have gotten the message.

2) Don't let the driver install and let the customer know why.
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