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Question

A rule making petition has been filed with the FCC by the NCVEC to eliminate cw testing for all classes of amateur licenses. See RM-10787 for details. Do you favor doing away with the cw testing requirement for all amateur classes?

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Survey Comments

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE

MY HATS OFF TO ALL YOU AMATEURS WHO DO NOT LIKE TO CAUSE HATE AND DISCONTENT. KE4RWS SAYS IT ALL (IN ANOTHER POSTING) AND I COULD NOT AGREE MORE. IT IS THE LIDS THAT LIKE TO COMPARE WHAT LEVEL OF AMATEUR OR PERSON YOU ARE BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU KNOW, HAVE, CHOOSE OR WANT TO ASSOCIATE YOURSELVES WITH. SOME NEVER MIND THE BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF RADIO HAVING TO DO WITH "INTERNATIONAL GOODWILL" OR MAKING IT AN ENJOYABLE HOBBY FOR ALL. SOME NEVER MIND MAKING A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW PEOPLE SHOULD TREAT OTHERS DESPITE DIFFERENCES. NEVER MIND THE FACT THAT THOSE WHO DO CREATE BARRIERS AND LIKE TO BASH OTHERS ARE USUALLY NOT HAPPY PEOPLE IN GENERAL. I PERSONALLY DO NOT CARE WHAT MODE, RADIO, ANTENNA, COAX, MICROPHONE OR OTHER GEAR OR HOW MUCH YOU OWN OR ITS COST. I COULD CARE LESS NOT TO EVEN ASSOCIATE WITH THE POOR TRODDIN DOWN SO CALLED AMATEUR MISFITS WHO LIKE TO FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEMSELVES THROUGH BROW BEATING AND COMPARING THEMSELVES TO OTHERS. YOUR ACTIONS AND ATTITUDES ARE NEVERTHELESS AN OBSTRUCTION TO THE HOBBY AND THE REAL AMATEURS WHO REALLY ARE WORTHY OF HAVING A LICENSE. SINCE IT IS A PRIVILEGE AND NOT A RIGHT I WOULD HOPE THAT YOUR PRIORITIES IN ORDER.
I KNOW FOR A FACT THERE ARE MORE GOOD OPERATORS THAN BAD LIDS. IT MAKES ME FEEL WONDERING WHY THAT THE SO CALLED "CB'ERS" ON THE AMATEUR BANDS ARE MORE COURTEOUS, ORGANIZED AND WILLING TO COOPERATE AND LEARN. MUST BE THAT THEY TRUELY HAVE RESPECT AND DO NOT TAKE IT ALL FOR GRANTED.
EVER THINK THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN RADIO?
MUST HAVE A VERY NARROW PERSPECTIVE OF LIFE AND A LIMITED AMOUNT OF REAL SOCIAL SKILLS.

READ ON:
Well, once again, because YOU had to do learn cw in no way means everyone else will have to do it until the end of time. There are two basic subjects within this issue. The first one is discussion regarding the up and coming changes to the way cw testing is conducted, or the elimination of it. The second issue is regarding the way many, not all, but many cw enthusiasts "treat" non cw folk. It is the second issue that many people have a problem with, and is the sole reason this argument rages on the way it does. I, as well as thousands of other licensed amateur radio operators, submit to you, the readers of these threads, that we are tired of being treated with such disrespect by many cw enthusiasts with the "attitude" that their better than everyone else. It is this attitude that has driven people to loath cw because of the way it's been represented and even presented. The general amateur radio community, that is those who don't care to participate in cw, are generalized as lazy, less intelligent, wanting something for nothing, and generally less an amateur radio operator than their cw using counterparts. It is this treatment and play on words that have caused the riff between both sides of the issue (at least this part of it). If it weren't for many cw enthusiasts "trashing" the other side then things would be fine. However, when those who proclaim themselves to be superior within the amateur radio community start to lose their grip on the rules governing who must learn cw to use HF then those same individuals start to cry so ever loudly. The bottom line here is there wouldn't be such dissention within the ranks if it weren't for so many cw ops trashing non cw ops, and saying how their so much better than everyone else, and how just knowing cw makes you a better operator. No other group within amateur radio makes this claim except for those who know and love cw. No other digital group forces this crap down your throat (daily I might ad) except one lone group of people: cw operators. And not all cw operators do this. Only certain ones. For some reason they feel the need to look down on ALL other participants of amateur radio. If you don't know or don't like the mode THEY like then your lazy. If you don't want to learn the mode THEY love then your less an operator then they are. And if you just don't care for cw for whatever the reason then your not good enough to use a specific portion of the band called HF. If these same cw ops could just curtail their rude comments then it wouldn't be near as bad. But they just have to tell you and the rest of the planet how much better they are than you, so the rest of us begin the true rebuttal of why certain cw ops think their so much better than other human beings. The fact is the cw groupies are just a little club made up of a lot of people. Some are good, kind individuals who would do anything to help their fellow amateur operator. But others are in it for what they perceive as some kind of status, and they think since they had to do it then you'd better do it too. And if you don't then your not worthy of radio operation. It's a shame to have these kind of people in this hobby because they detract from the real nature of this hobby. I've spoken out against these types of people rather than the hobby itself. I don't dislike cw, but rather I dislike the way these people treat others wihin the amateur radio hobby. And saying or even portraying yourself as being better than another person is just plain wrong. That's what my real beef is with the people I'm talking about, and that's why you see so much arguing over this issue. Some people don't want to learn cw, but some people are tired of being portrayed as losers or being lazy just because they don't care for the mode in question. That's where the elitist issue comes into play, and that's why so many people are steered away from cw when a certain number of those people would have and could have been influenced to go another way. If the group of people I speak of could stop slamming those who don't share the love of their favorite mode then things would be vastly different. Until then things will continue to evolve in a direction no one will like.
Posted by KE4RWS on February 14, 2004

Posted by IFTHETRUTHBEKNOWN on 2004-02-15

-. ..... ...- .-- -.

It's universal baby!
Posted by N5VWN on 2004-01-09

CW

So is bacteria.
Posted by YEPSURE on 2004-01-09

CW

This is what I have to say to the lazy, slothful types who lack the desire to spend the energy to pass element one. I received my first license, Tech with H.F. ( which means of course that I passed element one) on 8/15/00. On 8/8/02, I had to pass element one once again to get my General. I have never, not even once, used C.W. on the air. My daughter passed element one her first time at the age of 15 ( tech with H.F.), and once again at the age of 17 (General). She also has never used C.W. other than to pass the test. If you and your kind would spend half as much time studying for element one as you do whining about it, you could pass it. So stop your whining, pass the test, and be a hero not a zero.

I think John is right on the money, see below.

"Anyone too stupid or lazy to pass a lousy 5 wpm cw test doesnt deserve HF privledges, plain and simple. Get off that lazy butt, quit whining and crying and learn something that thousands of others have learned and be proud of the accomplishment of actually earning a ticket instead of being handed a gimme. If some of these jokers spent one third of their time learning cw instead of crying like a spoiled little brat who cant get their way, they already would be an extra. Hasnt the hobby been dumbed down enough already? Does the arrl need members that badly as to look the other way and not bother to lobby the FCC to keep the testing we now have? Sickening! I guess the love of money has polluted this hobby like the rest of present day society where the dollar is more important then principles and values. Pathetic!!


My fellow Hams, now lets be honest about this whole "keep the code get rid of the code " thing. A lot has been written about the prose and cons of keeping the code some on both sides rather well written, and some not. I myself have been rather sharp tongued on the subject, and I have received a few interesting responses because of it.

One ham KB9YVG in a obscene response writes

"You think like an old timer.. I learned CW in a three hour seesion when I was around 12. I have no particular in interest in HF. You seem like on of those operators who like to have their daughter (obscene response) when they hit that key. I thought '73 met "please don't do my kid", whoops that must be CB talk."

and another response by KG4YJR writes

"What a moron".

It is obvious to all that the defensive vitriolic responses of the "get rid of the code test "crowd is due to the fact that their argument ,no matter how will crafted, is intellectually dishonest. The truth is (and every one knows this ,both pro and con camps) that some are willing to earn their goal and others are not. You see some think that just because they want something they should get it even if it means cheating (changing the rules). Some of these lazy slothful types will argue in an intellectually dishonest manner that their concern is "saving Ham radio" when in fact they simply lack the desire to spend the energy to pass element one. To these lazy slothful types I ask: Why not be honest? And just say the truth ,come on and repeat after me: "I just don't want to take the five words a minute CW test, so change the rules just for me!".

I do not use CW myself, but I have lived through two element one tests (passed both). I think it is ok to take a five word per minute Morse code test, it's just part of earning your privilege to use HF.

What I don't get is how can one argue that one should receive such without earning it.

Can someone please explain this "even though i don't want to earn something I should get it just because I want it" thing?

Sincerely;
Slow Code General,
KD7KCP
73

Posted by KD7KCP on 2004-01-04

CW

The worst thing that has ever happened to ham radio was the no code ticket. Before that time you never heard all this crying to do away with testing. They are part of the liberal infestation that is plaugeing our country. The ones that think being a fag is ok, and there should not be testing in schools, and heaven forbid that anyone should be forced to learn anything. they need to be cut out of our hobby like the cancerius shankers that they are!
Posted by AA5GO on 2004-01-04

Bigots

The previous two posts demonstrate the radio bigotry in this country and abroad. This isn't really about radio anymore. It's about certain people who think their better than other people: BIGOTS.
Posted by YEPSURE on 2004-01-04

CW

I myself started out as a Novice in 1981. Did code for three years and forgot about Ham radio once I went off to college. Now older, I made Tech. Plus in 2000, since I had the 5wpm already. But, for the life of me, I can no longer follow code. My hearing has been shot in the left ear and tones of the dits and dah's just run into one long tune. If I had to upgrade to Tech. Plus or even General, the higher the wpm would have prevented my ability to achieve the class.
Posted by KC2GIU on 2003-12-31

???

If the FCC is who/what your refering to then what does that have to do with the long-dead Ma-Bell?

I'm definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer but your comparison didn't make any sense with Ma-Bell having had her rigormortis attack so long ago.

Happy New Year to everyone!
Posted by YEPSURE on 2003-12-26

Yes Ma bell!!

If I have to explain this as "putting the bands to commercial use" you can't be the sharpest knife in the drawer.
We won't make this decision, the FCC will. But we can either use that decision to promote HAM radio or we can piss and moan about it.
Posted by KB8LAC on 2003-12-20

All wrong

The exams must get harder and harder and the code must be set at 150 wpm then this discussion will end and the FCC can sell the bands to Ma Bell and Ham will just mean pork.
Posted by KB8LAC on 2003-12-19

Ma Bell???

Ma Bell's been dead for many years. Better wake up and get with it KB8LAC!
Posted by YEPSURE on 2003-12-19

CW

Hi Guys !
CW is my favorite mode....sorry if that offends anyone.....read the post of KB6TRR
he says it all......73
Posted by W8NES on 2003-12-14

CW

Hi Guys !
CW is my favorite mode....sorry if that offends anyone.....read the post of KB6TRR
he says it all......73
Posted by W8NES on 2003-12-14

Well, I'm NOT into cw and I'm certain that offends some people. Oh well, that's what makes amateur radio what it is. And you're a REAL amateur radio operator whether you're into cw or not.

CW is merely a part of amateur radio the same as ANY other mode. Your no better because you do cw than if you don't. Just as your no better because you understand the AX.25 digital protocol than another operator who doesn't.
Posted by KE4RWS on 2003-12-14

What was the question? With all the crap here does it really matter. All this is, is a _ itch session for name calling and chest pounding. The answer is NOT here my friends. It will not be decided by us. Just sit back and wait.
Posted by N2WEC on 2003-12-06

Just a thought

I think CW testing should be moved up to Extra Class. But I'm just a tech, so what do I know.
Posted by KD5NIH on 2003-11-22

Fade away...

Fifty to ninety percent of the world's languages are predicted to disappear in the next century, many with little or no significant documentation. Much of the work that has been done, especially on smaller languages, remains hidden away in personal research files or poorly preserved in under-funded archives.

As part of the effort to secure this critical legacy of linguistic diversity, The Long Now Foundation is creating a broad online survey and near permanent physical archive of 1,000 of the approximately 7,000 languages on the planet.

We have three overlapping goals for the project


To create an unprecedented platform for comparative linguistic research and education.

To develop and widely distribute a functional linguistic tool that might help with the recovery of lost or compromised languages in unknown futures.

To offer an aesthetic object that suggests the immense diversity of human languages as well as the very real threats to the continued survival of this diversity.

Since CW is on the brink of being eliminated in Amateur Radio VEC testing it will eventually fade away considering our modern day technology. Digital encoders/decoders and still readily available for CW...if you can type you can send. With other forms of communication such as the internet and cell phones being made more affordable and available...and the privacy from not advertising your name, address or (whereabouts if using vanity plates) has become more of a concern with the increase of home invasions, thefts, personal and property damages. Licensed radio operators will eventually have to grasp the concept that change is evident.
CW is on the way out...then Amateur radio would eventually lose its appeal altogether. We already have BPL concerns and what will happen to SSB due to other modes recently discovered...key down while you can and somebody actually responds.
Posted by ROSETTA on 2003-11-08

Walkie Talkie Techs

If it wasn't for the No Code Technicians exam I would not have had the priviledge to operate on the UHF/VHF Ham bands. I would not have had the opportunity to meet with operators who knew code and inspired me to study CW. I now key down at a steady 10 wpm and can copy about twice that rate. I did not take the code test nor intend to. I prefer operating 50 and up and listening to my shortwave receiver. If I wanted to use CW I can...but do so on UHF/VHF. I have heard enough people who do operate CW on the HF bands downing the no codes but fellow CW users as well: Too slow, too fast or you cannot talk to us on "our voice net" because you did not join us earlier on our CW frequencies. I eventually met up with a few of these people when they sought out my knowledge having to do with tube and solid state radio repairs. Some of these guys do not know how to troubleshoot systems by using various test equipment and reading a block diagram...the evidence of chicken scratched (solder) repair jobs and cold solder joints I have to correct are just as noticeable. Being a Ham is not only about radio...it is about people. Be tolerant not a tyrant. Oh wait...this should be under the subject of: Are you a real ham?













Posted by KD7KYU on 2003-10-14

Endless debate.

Braker Braker!
10-4 Good Buddy, come back.
Fours to you, this is the headless norseman, gotcha nines all the way backatcha.
Taaaayne Fore, you got the Space Cadet talkin atcha over cumin' in on the Upper, bye.
Gotcha Good Space Cadet, pumpin the Forty with a Duece, come on back to the Headless norseman...on breaker one nine high.

BREAK.

Uh, gotta braker in there come on in little Missy, come back.

ROGER. GOOD EVENING SPACE CADET AND HEADLESS NORSEMAN. MY NAME IS MELISSA, MIKE ECHO LIMA INDIA SIERRA SIEERA ALPHA. MELISSA IS MY NAME, AND I'M LOCATED IN ALBUQUERQUE.
I MAY HAVE COPIED NORSEMAN INSTEAD OF HORSEMAN, PLEASE CLARIFY, OVER.

(long pause)

Say what, lil missy uh...well mighty fine tuh meetcha young miss, uh. Come Back...

et cetra, et cetra.

hi.

HAVE FUN.


Posted by W3DCG on 2003-10-14

CW...again...?

I'm a fairly new general class op without a whole lot of experience. Of course I had to pass my element 1, 5wpm exam to hold the tech plus, then general class license. My good friend, a computer repairman, is tone deaf. There is no audible way he could pass the 5wpm test. I know there are other methods of testing, or I've at least heard of them... Although I studied hard to pass my 5wpm test, if it were to become an obsolete test, my friend as a Technician class op would love to operate with some HF priveleges. Maybe the element testing should change again, to reflect privelege with knowledge about the subject matter. HF for technicians is coming soon, maybe there should just be a small sliver of bandwidth made available (like there is) and like all the other element steps, test to gain. I guess I'm all for the new no code, even though the bands should remain the same, but you can't please all the hams all the time.
Posted by KD7PNY on 2003-10-11

CW Sucks

CW Sucks Beyond Belief
Posted by CWSUCKS on 2003-10-08

CW IDIOTS

For those of you who think cw should be eliminated from the test, just wait a bit longer and it'll happen. Don't let all these cw idiots get you down. Their just pissed because they realize cw-testing is on the way out the door. Oh they'll tell you it won't happen for a long time, but I guess ignorance is bliss.

All this crap about being lazy if you can't learn 5wpm, and the HF bands turning into a CB wasteland is just a bunch of propaganga the cw elitists are throwing out there to try and fool people into thinking the code requirement will never go away. They've only convinced themselves of a false-belief that the world will remain as it is. As far as a CB wasteland goes, just listen to to just about ANY of the HF bands one time. You'll hear the worst trash-talk you've ever heard on a CB!! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!! Things change, like it or not. The days of cw testing are just about over. So you can go tell yourself whatever you want but don't expect people to believe it anymore.
Posted by KE4RWS on 2003-09-30

Survey Results

Hmmm... Add up the survey percentages. Looks like 101% to me. 49 + 48 + 4 = 101.

Someone playing with the results perhaps?

Rick
WV8HAM
Posted by WV8HAM on 2003-09-30

Things Change

Paraphrasing an old saying, the only thing guranteed in this life is change.


For many the CW requirement is a tradition that is a bedrock of Ham Radio. To others it respresents a stumbling block or even a form of restriction against those who would want to enter our hobby.


From what I have observed in the past 10 years on the bands is a continuous erosion of Hams using the CW bands. There was time when CW signals were "wall to wall" and now they are disapearing. Even phone traffic is on the wane.


I feel despite any rule making change, the hobby is not in good straits and I don't expect any peaking of new interest in it as a result. The powers that be are modifying the regulations so as to modernize communications and keep it advancing technically. It is an attempt to preserve the hobby but by no means a guarantee to save it.


Just look around ourselves at Hamfests and we are all graying and heading to geezerhood and there is no youngbloods to speak of anymore. It is no longer the 1930's, the the 1950's or 1960's where Ham Radio had the power to capture the imagination and churn out licensees who worked hard to get their tickets coping with CW and the technical challenges. Despite the so-called numbers of hams in the United States census, how many are really still alive and even those who are, operating anymore?


Things change. If one resists change such as the rule making issue cited above, which is really for the better, those resisting forces only assure a more insecure future for our hobby. It is time to let the future take its place in respect to Amateur Radio and hopefully preserve our cherished hobby.
Posted by K2ANE on 2003-09-27

Things Change

Paraphrasing an old saying, the only thing guranteed in this life is change.


For many the CW requirement is a tradition that is a bedrock of Ham Radio. To others it respresents a stumbling block or even a form of restriction against those who would want to enter our hobby.


From what I have observed in the past 10 years on the bands is a continuous erosion of Hams using the CW bands. There was time when CW signals were "wall to wall" and now they are disapearing. Even phone traffic is on the wane.


I feel despite any rule making change, the hobby is not in good straits and I don't expect any peaking of new interest in it as a result. The powers that be are modifying the regulations so as to modernize communications and keep it advancing technically. It is an attempt to preserve the hobby but by no means a guarantee to save it.


Just look around ourselves at Hamfests and we are all graying and heading to geezerhood and there is no youngbloods to speak of anymore. It is no longer the 1930's, the the 1950's or 1960's where Ham Radio had the power to capture the imagination and churn out licensees who worked hard to get their tickets coping with CW and the technical challenges. Despite the so-called numbers of hams in the United States census, how many are really still alive and even those who are, operating anymore?


Things change. If one resists change such as the rule making issue cited above, which is really for the better, those resisting forces only assure a more insecure future for our hobby. It is time to let the future take its place in respect to Amateur Radio and hopefully preserve our cherished hobby.
Posted by K2ANE on 2003-09-27

MY LAST HERE

Yeah right like I am going to lower myself to talking to a nocode. post and answer back all you want ole wisey is out of here and moving on to another thread to spread his wisdom
Posted by THEWISEONE on 2003-09-23

get real no code

Don't worry about the wiseone. Fact is he has forgotten more about radio and computers than you will ever know. Due to the nature of the mission I am on , that is trying to teach you boneheads something I must use a screen name. The wiseone came into the amateur ranks a long time ago when real radiomen knew morse code and had to study for exams that didn't have all the questions and answers provided. Now Randall be a good boy and instead of whining and crying about morse simply start your study and become a accepted member of the ham frat house. You really need a more positive outlook on life and radio in general all your posts are negative. Instead of you and the 2 land nocode guessing if I am one of your good buddies, work hard and join us so you won't have to be on the outside looking in. Who am I? I bet you see me everyday and don't even know it.
Posted by THEWISEONE on 2003-09-20

Ohhhh Boy . . .

Ohhhh boy. Now we all have to listen to your overzealous opinion about yourself about how you've forgotten more about ham radio than I'll ever know. What arrogance. But again, your not even a licensed amateur operator, just a wanna-be that uses the same excuse as all the other bonified operators who think their real ham's. Come back with a license and we'll talk. Until then your just a wanna-be, which is even lower on the chain than a CB'er. And if you decide to take the test good luck with it. You too oldfart13.
Posted by KE4RWS on 2003-09-20

Talk About a CB'er

******"thewiseone" ... hmmmm, sounds like a cb handle.
Posted by KC2HJN on September 17, 2003******

Yes indeed, THEWISEONE does sound like a CB handle at that. The fact that he refuses to list any callsign only means I don't take him (or maybe he's a she) seriously with his/her/it's rants. The fact is, unless you list a callsign you ARE just a CB'er. And all the pro-cw talk you spew on this thread (or anywhere for that matter) doesn't mean jack because your not even a licensed amateur radio operator.

Time for you to retreat back to 27.185 MHz Mr. CBWISEONE.

Posted by KE4RWS on 2003-09-19

CW

No CW, Easier Exams, CB.
Posted by OLDFART13 on 2003-09-19

?????

It seems that most (not all) missed the point of the CW/electronics survey: the purpose (in my opinion) is to provide a "barrier" to admission. CW or the tests keep the "undesirables" out, and let the rest of us (the majority) enjoy the hobby.

Should the folks who aren't now licensed care? In my opinion, yes. Take the example of CB (albeit imperfect, but it's the best example we have and most of us understand it.) The vast majority of operators want to use it to get information on road conditions, etc. Yet a few insist on "marketing" sex and other things I don't want my family to be exposed to. Others consider it a "private" system and refuse to respond to even a reasonable inquiry from another motorist or operator. As a result, most of us have subsequently "disposed" of our CB gear and refuse to use the citizens band.


In my opinion, the same thing will happen to ham radio if all barriers to admission are removed.


So, the questions are 1. do we want a "barrier," and 2. what should it/they be? Most of us will not MAKE these decisions, but those who do will listen, particularly if a consensus evolves.


I, for one, refuse to be affiliated with any group that admits everyone, even the undesirable types. I just don't have the time or patience to tolerate those people, and most others feel the same way. Let me assure you, I have no love for CW, or exams in general, but I consider them a necessity.
BTW, let me also assure you that I am a licensed ham, along with the rest of my family. We put up with the code (my daughter was 8) and technical exams, and probably would again. My call is hidden because I consider their/my welfare important to me.
Posted by LARRY2 on 2003-09-18

"thewiseone" ... hmmmm, sounds like a cb handle.
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-17

yes do away with it

CW is great for anyone who likes it dont force it on me

Posted by KG4SMU on 2003-09-17

CW issue

Is CW a mode available to all hams?? YES Is our tesing to cover all modes available to hams?? YES I have no problem with removing the code, since you don't have any interest in it but, I want it to be fair for me too. Remove all digital, SSTV, EME questions and I'll call it even. What do you say? I think that's fair. Will elimate your hate and I'll elimate mine. Too, bad I already took the extra test and passed without whining about the questions I have not the least interest in. I consider those questions a waste of my valuable time. I had to sit down and learn about them. It was utterly disgusting. I almost threw up. How can you consider these modes of operation available to every ham worth it? They aren't reliable, can't work under heavy QRM. Loose bits faster than I can imagine and can't operate under extremely weak conditions(not enough dynamic headroom even with AS400, Viterby and Reed Solomon chips). I did it because I wanted to. I can state as many excuses as you can. I'm noy biased, nor hate Tachs. I just believe in a well rounded test covering all modes available to every ham. Move the 5 WPM to the extra class as a possible solution.
Posted by N0FQN on 2003-09-17

boo-hoo

whine whine bawl bawl be a man and quit your sobbing, then go sauve you a-- and sit down and learn the code. maybe its on the way out but I bet it will be years before that happens and by then BPL will rule all the Hf and VHF freqs.
Posted by THEWISEONE on 2003-09-16

More stink coming

I heard what sounded like morse code at a farm the other day. Turns out it was gas being passed by a horse, and it was suspiciously remeniscent of some of the comments heard here by 'elitist know-coders'. Those comments here concerning their attitude sound like they issue from the same place!
Posted by 2INTEREST on 2003-09-16

big mistake

hey nocode sure you were not looking in a mirror while talking to your 10-4 go buddies at the same time?
Posted by THEWISEONE on 2003-09-16

CW

I fully support No Code HF:

Starting right now, I'd be happy with all No Code Techs being provisioned to full General privileges, limited to 10W PEP.

Enough to wet the whistles, hone skill, live the meaning of what a privilege it is to have even 100 barefoot watts at one's disposal, and how effective 10W can be.

Gets people on HF, and once there, hopefully motivated.

5 wpm truly is Child's Play...

I'm thinking let's put Amateur Radio back on the world map big time, everyone else has zigged, I say we zag:

Increase it because it is harder, and the genesis mode-

Bump it "back" up to a compromise 18wpm for Extra, keep it 5 wpm for General, and drop it as mentioned for Tech plus No.

USE it. Excersize our sovereign independence, make ham radio a model once again for those brainy academic types like it once was. While we're revamping the US Public school systems, how about making ham radio THE model to follow. While much of the world has/will-have lessened their historically significant standard to ZERO, I say we raise it. Why? Because Americans can be stubborn in a worse but good way, and this country needs more tough love. Quality in Public education in this country has reached crisis levels, largely because of weakening standards, possibly in part to some kind of Welfare mentality.

For once in a very long time, to the demand for something for nothing, in principle, if for no other reason, the answer should be a resounding NO.
Posted by W3DCG on 2003-09-15

Re: Arrogance

"They almost think like Hitler did by saying their better just because . . ."

Frankly, I'm trying to figure-out if the above statement was borne of ignorance or stupidity. Hope it's the former, not the latter. Sometimes, it's better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.

73 KG5JJ (Mike)
Posted by KG5JJ on 2003-09-15

cw BIGOTS at it again!

Well gentlemen, I see the pro cw users (those who think their better than everyone else) are at it again with all the "No-Code Folks Are Lazy", and all the other fancy little slogans they've come up with since they've realized their precious cw testing requirements are on the way out!

Say what you will, some people aren't interested in cw. Just like you may not be interested in packet. But you don't see pro-packet users cramming their mode down your throat in terms of getting your license.

cw has it's days numbered in terms of testing requirements. Deny it all you want. Say we're lazy good for nothing no-coders who don't know a resistor from a diode. You can call us any name you want, and allege anything under the sun. The bottom line is cw testing requirements are ON THE WAY OUT. I suggest you DEAL WITH IT YOURSELF. After all, that's the only real issue that's going to have to be dealt with. cw testing IS on the way OUT!

Now go whine about something else because this is practically as good as done. Awwwww, too bad for you.
Posted by KE4RWS on 2003-09-15

cw

If you make something so easy to attain that everyone can have it (as in getting rid of the cw test) it will not be worth having. I say keep the code tests, in fact I wish that they would go back to the 5, 13, and 20 wpm tests.
Posted by N4JBK on 2003-09-14

Why does it need to be difficult?

As I am reading through the many comments in favor, or agenst code testing, one of the themes I see is that people can't have something for nothing, and I had to pass a 20 WPM code test etc.

It begs the question, and maybe someone can answer this for me. Why does it need to be difficult to become a ham? It seems to me that the more people on the air the more fun the hobby is. How does the CW requirement keep "bad" operators off the air. If someone is going to break the rules, will they care if they are "within" their priveleges? Some of the poorest operators I have heard on the air are the folks in the Extra section of 80 meters at night. You can hear quite a few 4 letter words, and it doesn't sound like many of the "old timers" who had to pass the 20 WPM code test care for anyone other than themselves.

So help me understand. Do we want the hobby to go away? I think more folks on the air is better. I think that most people will do a good job operating, code test or not. So, whats the issue?
Posted by KF6IHL on 2003-09-14

What Arrogance . . .

The following statement again demonstrates the arrogance of some cw users:

"Well Gentlemen YOU Must Remember That ``REAL HAM`S DO CW``.73,Norm.
Posted by KB9YGD on September 11, 2003"

Get a life Norm. I really hate mentioning names here, but people like you show your arrogance to everyone anyway. To even think your a better individual just for knowing or using cw makes you a cw bigot. You hurt the hobby with that kind of mindset, and you further destroy any possibility of finding a common bond between cw and non-cw users alike.

Your welcome to your own opinion, but your still arrogant in thinking that cw makes a better amateur radio operator. That's precisely why I will NEVER learn cw. Learning cw means I have to become a pompous-ass with the attitude that I'm better than the rest of the amateur radio population, and I refuse to think that way.

Not all cw users think that way but some do, and it's those arrogant asses I'm directing this at. Like it or not cw for testing purposes has it days numbered. Then what are you going to complain about?

Maybe BPL should take over and push all the goody-goody types out of the ring. Then we won't have to deal with their "I'm Better Than You" attitudes. People like that are really unbelievable. They almost think like Hitler did by saying their better just because . . .

Get real.

Posted by KE4RWS on 2003-09-14

so be it

well gentlemen in spite of the nocodes stuffing the ballot box the numbers still say that the real hams want cw to stay. I would rather see ham radios numbers dwindle and die than to see it taken over by a bunch of lazy nocodes. Will the last real ham out please switch off the lights and lock the door.
Posted by THEWISEONE on 2003-09-14

Re: What Arrogance

"That's precisely why I will NEVER learn cw. Learning cw means I have to become a pompous-ass with the attitude that I'm better than the rest of the amateur radio population, and I refuse to think that way."

Translation:

I don't like what little Johnny said at the marble game, so I'm taking my marbles home and NEVER learn how to play...

Or:

I have to come-up with a really clever way to blame someone or something (everybody elses fault) that I don't feel like learning Morse code...

I'm reminded of an Eagles tune; "GET OVER IT"!

73 KG5JJ (Mike)
Posted by KG5JJ on 2003-09-14

CW issue

I ask; Is it a mode of operation available to every ham?
Is our testing to cover all modes available to us?
Then what's the issue with keeping a 5 WPM code test?
I don't use and never will use digital. IT'S for pompus asses. They think there better than everyone else. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!!!
You can make all the staements you wish. No ones better than the next ham. Another poor excuse just like "make it easier, it's too hard". If you want HF privelges work at it. If it's worth doing, do it well and you'll appreciate it more. I can't excuse the poor operators on the HF bands but, the same can be said in any portion of the ham spectrum. Why are you people looking so hard for an excuse to elimate CW? If you put the same amount of energy into learning the code there wouldn't be any complainers. GET OVER IT!! It's a mode of operation a available to EVERY HAM.
Posted by N0FQN on 2003-09-14

Morse requirement

I know nothing about psk ?, and alot of other modes currently in use. I know morse, as it was a requirement at 5 & 13 wpm. I don't use it much, but that is not the point. If I were tested on the new digital modes, I'd turn in my ticket. Ham radio is in a constant state of evolution, as technology moves forward. Our testing should reflect this aspect of the service and cw should be weighted less, or no more than the other modes used to communicate. I think a fundamental knowledge of the all modes, cw included need to be stressed on our testing, but, not to the point of keeping otherwise good potential operators off the bands. I think it's time to move on, and make cw PART of the overall testing, not a main requirement, without which, no ticket.
Posted by KE2WG on 2003-09-13

Morse requirement

I know nothing about psk ?, and alot of other modes currently in use. I know morse, as it was a requirement at 5 & 13 wpm. I don't use it much, but that is not the point. If I were tested on the new digital modes, I'd turn in my ticket. Ham radio is in a constant state of evolution, as technology moves forward. Our testing should reflect this aspect of the service and cw should be weighted less, or no more than the other modes used to communicate. I think a fundamental knowledge of the all modes, cw included need to be stressed on our testing, but, not to the point of keeping otherwise good potential operators off the bands. I think it's time to move on, and make cw PART of the overall testing, not a main requirement, without which, no ticket.
Posted by KE2WG on 2003-09-13

CW

Well, another day went by without hf privileges for the no-coders. How long has it been now? There are some very very patient people out there. I am glad that I decided not to wait. 50 years is a long time to wait. In the meantime you have found something else to amuse yourselves, I am sure. If you were really interested in radio, you get the code over with and enjoy the hf bands.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-13

CW

The whole concept of "giving" away our licenses gets my goat. I understand the politics of numbers, but we CW ops are really going to love it when the CW sub-bands go by the way of the "give it to me for nothin' crowd!" I got my Novice ticket in '88 and Extra in '89. I was extremely delighted when I passed my 20wpm code test. Passing the theory and rules exams were a piece of cake. I had to work at the code, and then it became fun. Those of you who don't operate CW are really missing out. 73, Mark, K8ZW
Posted by K8ZW on 2003-09-13

ADJUSTED FIGURES

The figures here all week have been running 3 to 1 against doing away with the cw testing requirement for all amateur classes.
Very surprised to them even now, some people must have been very busy in last 24 hours or so.

Posted by EI5FK on 2003-09-13

Here's how it will turn out

Well, after 3 MORE hours of reading a lot posts (some very valid and some just off the wall) I've decided to just say what WILL happen, which is obvious and just a matter of time. Morse code testing requirements will go away. CW as a mode will remain as long as there are at least 2 ops who wish to use it (I know there are a LOT more than 2 out there at this very second using it). Beyond that there is no certainty, so just bank on those two things. Like many things in life, these are two things we really can't do anything about. Lets stop BPL instead of screwing around in valid arguments aboutthings which we can't change.
Posted by KG4IHJ on 2003-09-13

Survey Trashed By No Coders!

I find it interesting that the NO votes in this survey held a Substantial lead until TODAY ! Must be the NCI crowd got the word out. The YES votes are suddenly closing the gap. Well..this ham thinks something is up. Percentages just don't change that quickly.
Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-13

What's so tough?

There appear to be legitimate arguments on both sides of this debate, but I have difficulty accepting the assertion that the Morse proficiency requirement is keeping large numbers of otherwise qualified people out of the hobby. I easily passed the Morse exam last Monday after having practised 20 minutes a day for 6 weeks using G4FON's free training software. If that is too much of a time commitment for some people, I have to question whether they deserve the privileges conferred by an HF operating license.
Posted by AI4BJ on 2003-09-13

Both sides are stuffing the ballot box...

I have been sitting here for the last hour reading some articles on the net. And while doing that i have been refreshing this web page every few minutes to check the numbers. From what i have seen so far there is a significant amount of ballot stuffing from BOTH SIDES of the argument. There is no way that either side can move this fast with legitimate votes.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

Both sides are stuffing the ballot box...

I have been sitting here for the last hour reading some articles on the net. And while doing that i have been refreshing this web page every few minutes to check the numbers. From what i have seen so far there is a significant amount of ballot stuffing from BOTH SIDES of the argument. There is no way that either side can move this fast with legitimate votes.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

A matter of time

I agree with previous posters. What's so special about CW as compared to PSK31, RTTY, SSTV, et al? You have to know the technical details bhind the mode but how many people use them? WHy shouldn't CW be the same? I like it, but think that if ham radio is to show its truly a 21st century sevice CW must be kept as just another mode to be used and not keep its special status.
Posted by WO8USA on 2003-09-13

Give 'em limited HF

Obviously there is a lot of "ballot stuffing" going here as of today. But what
difference does it make....whatever happens will happen. If the NCI-ers want HF, let's just set aside some No Code Tech space on 20m and 40m for them and leave everything else as it is. I am an avid CW op and I will be happy to stay in the Extra Class CW segment away from all the "mess"....
73 and long live CW,
W5EEX
Posted by WA5DGH on 2003-09-13

keeping CW testing is prejudicial

The international community has already agreed that code is optional.
Radio waves bounce around the globe -- US Hams don't own them.
Using code in the US license exam is unnessary and amounts to unwarranted prejudice against our own citizens.
The CW band plan should be preserved for as long as it is used. If it is not used it should also go.
If we need a tougher exam -- let's have one, but it shouldn't include code. The object of this "hobby" is to get
people to use radio with responsibility and integrity. I live in the New York/ Connecticut are. It's well stocked with
many Hams and many repeaters. I don't hear repeaters that are over-loaded. I don't hear CB like behaviour.
During the recent east coast black-out, I didn't hear anyone in trapped in the elevators in my office building tapping out morse.
I can't think of any reason to keep the code requirement.

Posted by KC2KXV on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Each time you log out you get another vote

Has absolutely no meaning whatsoever !!!!
Try it, you can vote over and over and over
and over !!!


Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-13

Yep, thats it...

The only winning number will be determined by the side that has the most time to spend on voting.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

Yep, thats it...

The only winning number will be determined by the side that has the most time to spend on voting.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

Yep, thats it...

The only winning number will be determined by the side that has the most time to spend on voting.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

Yep, thats it...

The only winning number will be determined by the side that has the most time to spend on voting.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

Yep, thats it...

The only winning number will be determined by the side that has the most time to spend on voting.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

Yep, thats it...

The only winning number will be determined by the side that has the most time to spend on voting.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

Yep, thats it...

The only winning number will be determined by the side that has the most time to spend on voting.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

Yep, thats it...

The only winning number will be determined by the side that has the most time to spend on voting.


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

It was discovered the other day...

The surveys on eHam have one huge flaw, you dont even have to be a subscribed member to vote.
Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-13

This is ridiculous.

It's really amazing that some people who are hams and actually passed the tests display such an incredible level of stupidity.....regardless of the issue.
Posted by KE4MOB on 2003-09-13

DROP THE MORSE REQUIREMENT.

THIS REQUIREMENT IS LONG OVER DUE AS A TEST REQUIREMENT.and should be dropped as you all know the ONLY REAL REASON it was retained we were OBLIGATED BY INTERNATIONAL TREATY (ITU) now we are NOT per the WRC-03 CONFERANCE.we should remove it and just learn to get along and stop MUD SLINGING EACH OTHER INTO THE GROUND. there must be at least 1500 threads on this ISSUE alone "WOW".so we all seem to be more active here on E-HAM than on the bands!!!!!.so 73 de N2NZJ TOM.
Posted by N2NZJ on 2003-09-12

Retain Morse Testing!

Unlike others in this forum,I do not see this as a war at all. It is about preserving a time tested Skill and Tradition! Without required Morse testing,this valued skill will not survive another 30 years. Why? well..how many would learn Morse code if it were not required? If we remove Morse testing, the Skill and Tradition of Morse code will fade away.Preserve Morse code by continued Testing and using the skill.W8VOM
Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-12

Worthless For Testing

CW is a valued mode. However, using it for testing purposes serves NO purpose any longer. The fact that many others had to do it when they got licensed in no way makes it worthy for current testing purposes.

Drop the code for testing requirements. Like it or not it WILL happen. That's just a fact of life, so enjoy it as a part of the test while you can!


Randy Evans
KE4RWS
Posted by KE4RWS on 2003-09-12

Drop CW testing - Be an Elmer

I passed cw. It can be done, anyone can easily pass a test, cw or not. CW didn't teach me how to operate. You did.
Pick your outsider: no-coders within, freebanders without - get out there. Share and teach your love of radio and have fun without excluding. Then they will want to be like you again.
If ham radio wouldn't judge and exclude, but loved and fostered help for the outsiders - what a nice hobby it would be. Drop CW testing, be an Elmer instead.
Posted by KD4SIR on 2003-09-12

NCI CONVENTION?

somebody must have went crying to nobodies oops I mean No code intl judging by the comments. Get a clue more real hams want the CW req than not. CW is here to stay just take 1/2 hour to sit down and learn it!
Posted by THEWISEONE on 2003-09-12

code vs. no code survey

Thewiseone is showing its usual level of intellect. Of course this is par for the course for a person who is afraid to put it's name or call on its words. Must be that you just want to make trouble and you are not a real Amateur at all and just want to make noise. It can debate me on this at any time.....William Chapman - N2WEC.....n2wec@arrl.net
Posted by N2WEC on 2003-09-12

Ham Radio Welfare

N9AVY commented on THEWISEONE: Wonder if I blubbered & whined enough about being financially challenged if anyone would send donations to me at Paypal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I think so... it's called Welfare in the States - a case of those "without" wanting from those "with". Say, that does sound a bit like the anti-CW crowd!
Posted by BUFFOON on 2003-09-12

You know, it's funny. After all these comments, with all the put downs and insults coming from all the pro coders, not one has given a valid argument for keeping the testing requirement. In NYC city where there's an abundance of morons the hams on 2m and 440 for the most part operate professionally. According to the logic of the pro code people those bands should be nothing but cursing, foul mouthed, 10-4 good buddy "fake" hams destroying ham radio forever. But it's not. If you hear bad operators on HF, keep in mind that those people ALREADY PASSED a morse test. If the FCC enforced the law some more they wouldn't be there. Sure there will be idiots in every crowd but a test will not eliminate them, enforcement will. Let's see how many liars there are out there by asking a question...How many of you, when you first thought of becoming a ham, would have voluntarily taken a code test if not required to? Honest now, don't lie.
Like I said in an earlier post, I do believe the code test could stay in place for parts of the HF spectrum but to exclude someone from the whole thing because of the assumption that because you don't know code you will be a bad operator is wrong. If you got a taste of HF, it would give an incentive to voluntarily take the test to get access to the rest. If not, you stay on your little slice and that's that.
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-12

Keep CW

Anyone can buy a book and study the right answers to get their license, but that doesn't make them a HAM. You CAN'T buy a book to pass a CW test, you have to learn it. That makes you a HAM. We joined this hobby to learn and advance our operating skills, to learn more proficient ways to operate and the different modes. Those that are stuck in a rut and don't want to try anything else (other than 2m FM) are more likely the ones opposing CW. If you can't learn CW, I understand, but DON'T screw things up for the rest of us. Stay in your own little world and when you want to run with the big dogs, get off the porch.
Posted by N4FBI on 2003-09-12

CW

If I had been given a choice about going to grade school or not, I would have opted to not attend school. I am glad that I was forced to attend school. Humans are weak. Some of us eat too much. Some of us smoke. I have been smoke free for thirty years, but the damage has probably already been done. Anyhow, I am glad I had to learn morse. I can run circles around other modes using cw.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-12

Morse won't die

If the morse test requirement is dropped completely, then more hams will CW as a means of communication just so the new folks can't understand. Plainly put, CW will exist as long as it is useful and needed. I am not a ham yet, will take test in two weeks. If morse is a requirement to go beyond tech, then I will do so, but heavy CW use is not in my plans. If CW became more common on 2m and 70cm repeaters, then things would be different.

An example is spanish use in America, everyone knows it is growing. I know people that are learning spanish because they need it to communicate to a growing portion of the population. The more often that morse is used, the more people will learn and be adept with CW.


Posted by DJAND on 2003-09-12

W5UX wrote "If I had been given a choice about going to grade school or not, I would have opted to not attend school. I am glad that I was forced to attend school"
Good point BUT we are all forced to take a test to become a ham (granted it is very easy, and should actually test your knowledge instead of memory). Now if you were forced to learn cunieform in order to graduate from that same grade school to attend high school, would you think it was necessary? Yes, you might actually be proud you learned it after you were done but was it necessary. That is the debate, not if it makes you feel good.
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-12

CW

KC2HJN. . . . . I did not have to take cuneiform in school. (By the way, you misspelled it your post). However, I was forced to take a course in Spanish when I was in the third grade. I liked it, took more and ended up in with a good career in the Immigration Service. VIVA MORSE!!!!
. . . . Bob w5ux
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-12

Ah yes, but spanish is a relevant language widely used in many different countries by people of different professions, backrounds, interests, and ideals. Morse is starting to become rare except among hams, much like cuneiform is rare (extinct?) except among historians and scientists. (spelled it right this time) (yes, i realize hams are also from many different backrounds, etc.. but only the hams are interested anymore)
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-12

And again, It's good to learn a second language and you used it for a good purpose but was it neecessary for all the kids in your class to learn it. I also took spanish, for six years no less, passed every year but had no use for it so never used it. Now I can't remember 10 words. Was it necessary for me to learn it?
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-12

ARCHAIC and OBSOLETE TEST.

THE RETENTION OF THE MORSE TEST IS ARCHAIC. By today's standards and also amongst the INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE.per the actions taken at the WRC-03 CONFERANCE the FCC IS NO LONGER obligated to REQUIRE TO GIVE AN OBSOLETE TEST.(ELEMENT ONE)we should SUPPORT RM-10786 AND OR RM-10787 and let us to be free to ADR more IMPORTANT ISSUES.73 DE N2NZJ.
Posted by N2NZJ on 2003-09-12

CW

Yes, morse is old but so are aluminum, wood, iron, ink, gunpowder and electricity. CW is the best mode.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-12

So is cannibalism, murder, prostitution, tyrrany, and rape. What's your point?
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-12

CW would not be eliminated, just the TESTING

For the individual who made the comparison above between ham radio and medical school, I offer this: A friend of mine just became a doctor. She related that one of her professors told her, in effect, "There's no reason to put students and residents through the ringer the way we do. It's just that, we suffered through it so by golly you're going to suffer through it!" I get the feeling that much of the objection to eliminating the CW test stems from a similar attitude.

As for the folks who state that the bands have been flooded by foul-mouthed LIDS since the CW test was capped at 5wpm, I'm not so sure you can show anything more than coincidental correlation. Society *as a whole* is degenerating at a ferocious pace, and the upsurge in incivility on-air, I suspect, reflects a general slide of social standards than simply a lower quality of incoming hams in isolation.

As for the exam question, I'd be inclined to say, eliminate the CW test *BUT* only if simultaneously the tecnical competence required to be demonstrated to pass Elements 2 3 and 4 is increased. Change the exams from all multiple choice to part long-answer, where schematics would have to be drawn, caluculations made, answers actually written out. I realize the VECs may come after me with tar and feathers for proposing to make their jobs that much harder :-), but that's my $.02 (adjusted for inflation, of course).
Posted by KG4WKY on 2003-09-12

CW Testing

The vast MAJORITY of Amateurs still use CW to some extent. It is still the best mode for weak signal communications in rough environments, and it is fun.

Let's not eliminate all CW testing because a few vocal people think they represent the majority. I think a LIMITED no CW phone-only HF license is fine if the testing is more realistic, but granting higher classes to no code is dumb. Extra should be at least 15WPM, General at least 5.
Posted by W8JI on 2003-09-12

CW

The point is that we don't throw something away just because it is old. If it works, it doesn't matter how old it is. If we are going to throw out a mode, it is a shame that we are going to throw out the best one that we have. Voice is the archaic one that takes up tremendous space and is terribly weak and inefficient. It is definitly obsolete.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-12

Survey Results

I find it interesting that the NO votes in this survey held a substantial lead until TODAY ! Must be the NCI crowd got the word out. The YES votes are suddenly closing the gap. Well..this ham thinks something is up.
Percentages just don't change that quickly.

Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-12

To W8VOM:

Your right about the Yes votes closing the gap, its all over the place on the internet about this survey being up on eHam. I read on a few sites today advocating the removal of CW to get on eHam and vote immediately.

Oh well, just shows how the no-codes are more organized than use coded hams, HI HI!

I won't mention names or web address's or anything of that nature, simply because i do not want to stir up any opinions or flames, but i will say that there is a large number of no-code supporters with groups on Yahoo and other such places, and the news of the day for all of them seems to be:

GET TO EHAM AND VOTE ON CW NOW!!

unquote..

73 all

David

13wpm General licensee
Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-12

CW

I agree with WA8QNN. Let the "something for nothing" group have their HF. CW only on HF.

Denny
KE8IC
Posted by KE8IC on 2003-09-12

CW

I agree with WA8QNN. Let the "something for nothing" group have their HF. CW only on HF.

Denny
KE8IC
Posted by KE8IC on 2003-09-12

In from Yahoo...

I saw a posting on a Yahoo group about getting as many votes against CW as possible, and thats why i am here. Up until today i have barely ever came to eHam, let alone sign up as a member, but after seeing the posts about voting on this survey on yahoo it was time to come check it out.

I read some interesting posts on Yahoo from many others like me, and one ham who claims to be collecting absentee votes, HI HI. Not sure how they would count, but he claims to have over 200 absentee votes that he needs to get entered somehow before the voting is over.

To each his own, here is my vote and my two cents worth, 73 CUL.


Posted by ANTENNAELMER on 2003-09-12

no-code crowd stuffs ballot box

Isn’t it obvious that the no-coders are stuffing the ballot box? All it takes to vote here is an account on eHam. How many participants voted multiple times using multiple eHam accounts? This survey should not be taken seriously. It has no validity and no credibility. A survey could not be valid unless it could be verified that only licensed hams voted only one time each. I’m sure there have been many no-code votes made by unlicensed CB ham wannabe’s, as well as licensed and unlicensed people voting multiple times. The webmasters on this site need to take a look at how many new accounts were established within the past 6 hours or so.
Posted by AG4RQ on 2003-09-12

The power of advertisement??

I saw a similar post on Yahoo as well, thats why i am here. It was like a call to arms for the no-codes to vote, and it seems to be working just fine.

From what i read on a group posting today most are following suite by signing up with eHam just to vote, and then they are gone, interesting how they despise eHam, or don't wish to use it?? Oh well, i signed up to vote, and know that i am here i think i will look around for a while, lots of info in the forums and product reviews. Funny how i never heard of this website before?

Posted by VHFANDUHF on 2003-09-12

Comment to/for AG4RQ:

It seems to be as bad as the election in Florida, but there is one funny thing that you made me think of, now that the Yes votes are in the lead, valid or not, now the pro-code types will come out of the woodwork to argue how the survey is not valid. Thats really funny, because yesterday the pro-cw types were aguing just how valid this survey is, because they were is the lead with the no votes. Thats hilarious!!

73,

David

Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-12

CW

I found this site while looking for info on how to go about getting a ham license. I feel a need for hf communications on my sail boat and this is the easiest way. I retired from the USN as a Master Chief Radioman a long time ago and haven't touched a hand key in 40 years. For those of you that don't know, I'm old and obsolete. The navy no longer has Radiomen.
At least they admit it, it happened when they did away with the requirement for code.
If you want to be a HAM be one, but if you want to be a Radioman, learn the code. I like my hams sugar cured. Being a Radioman is like belonging to a very elite fraternity, and you don't want to share with someone who hasn't earned the title through the same qualifications you were required to meet. Quality costs, cheap is common. There isn't anything made that can't be made cheaper and that is one of the big problems in our society today. I know that if the code requirement is done away with it will only be a matter of time before the cw operators won't have a place to practice their art and another "Quality Operation" will be down the drain. I don't think we need that.
Posted by RMCMRET on 2003-09-12

CW FOREVER

WELL, IT LOOKS LIKE THIS SURVEY IS DONE. THANKS TO YAHOO FORUM....CW WILL STAY, CW IS HAM RADIO.
Posted by CWTITAN on 2003-09-12

Nobody is trying to eliminate the code, only the required testing. I'm still waiting for a valid reason to keep the TEST. Not because you like it, or it's tradition, or it's "the best". Is it still NECESSARY to keep the TEST for access to ALL hf bands? This argument can not be won by stating your feelings because those who love code will say if the code test is eliminated the earth will fall out of orbit and we'll all die fiery deaths and those who hate it will swear that if they try to learn code, their fingers will fall off and rot and they will die of infection, all because of the code. Can someone just say why TESTING for morse code is necessary? If it is as great and beloved as you say, eliminating the test will not make code go away. Those who enjoy it will continue to enjoy it and those who don't will enjoy the aspect of the hobby they like. C'mon one good reason to keep the test, I'm open.
W8JI said "The vast MAJORITY of Amateurs still use CW to some extent."
I don't believe the vast majority use code. According to the fcc there are 736207 active amateur radio licenses in the US. Of those, 277054 are techs (approx. 37 - 38%)If we assume that most of them don't actively use code, that leaves approx. 459000 with a potential to use it. Given the wide diversity of interests among hams, I highly doubt that all of them use code actively (it is after all only one part of amateur radio). If we guess that half took the code test just to get HF priveledges, that leaves approx. 230000 who actively use code. Even if we say 3/4 of them use code regularly, that still only leaves about 345,000, not really what you can call a vast majority (not even half of the total licensed hams, you would need about 23000 more to reach just half). I know it's not exactly scientific, but it is reasonable.
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-12

no-coders stuff ballot box

RFSOAKED, get real. There is no possible way this survey could be valid. The results were overturned in a matter of minutes, not even hours. That is not the result of a natural process. The only thing I could buy is one vote per licensed ham, worldwide. The no-code crowd made a mockery of this survey.
Posted by AG4RQ on 2003-09-12

Survey code is flawed

You don't even need an account to vote. If you're logged in you can vote only once. If you log out, you can vote as many times as you wish and they count. So the results are meaningless, not that I thought the survey carried any weight where it matters. Looks like someone has all ready figured out how to stuff the ballot box as the pro coders were 2 to 1 yesterday.
Posted by KB8JVH on 2003-09-12

Survey code is flawed

You don't even need an account to vote. If you're logged in you can vote only once. If you log out, you can vote as many times as you wish and they count. So the results are meaningless, not that I thought the survey carried any weight where it matters. Looks like someone has all ready figured out how to stuff the ballot box as the pro coders were 2 to 1 yesterday.
Posted by KB8JVH on 2003-09-12

I suppose a pro-coder could not vote twice, only the scuzzy anti code crowd could possibly do that.
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-12

reason to keep Morse proficiency exam

KC2HJN, you want a valid reason for keeping the code testing? WRC 2003 did nothing to abolish Morse proficiency testing. WRC 2003 merely removed mandated Morse proficiency testing from international treaty, leaving the choice of whether or not to continue it to each individual country. Just because some socialist-leaning countries in Europe dropped their Morse proficiency testing doesn’t mean the United States has to follow suit.

I strongly believe that we should continue Morse proficiency testing here in the United States, unless the standards of the written exams are raised. If we are to eliminate Morse proficiency testing, the written exams need to be much more comprehensive, with open-ended answers to questions that are not publicly published. Applicants for a ham license or an upgrade need to earn their licenses and upgrades. None of the countries which dropped their Morse proficiency testing publishes their questions and answers to their exams. In the United States, the only work that one has to do for a license is learning Morse. Our written exams are a joke. Buy the book, memorize the pool and ace the test. No knowledge of radio and electronic theory is necessary.
A chimp could pass our written exams. One absolute that I believe in is “DON’T ELIMINATE A TESTING REQIUREMENT UNLESS THERE IS A REPLACEMENT FOR IT”.
Posted by AG4RQ on 2003-09-12

real men only

oooooooooh you flabby members of the no codes do not you know a woman wants a real man, my man knows how to work the world on cw, if you can't learn a simple thing like the morse how will you ever please a woman
Posted by BETTYBIGONES on 2003-09-12

AG4RQ...I agree. If you read my earlier posts way down below you would see that I said the same thing. The written tests are a joke and I actually am not against the code test. It's just that every time this debate comes up it turns into name calling and insults (from both sides, but the pro coders seem worse to me)without anybody making any valid points. I'm just asking people to THINK. Have a real debate by making a case, not by trying to insult the opposition into submission. ... And I like a good debate....
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-12

KC2HJN

"I suppose a pro-coder could not vote twice, only the scuzzy anti code crowd could possibly do that."

Marty,
Wasn't suggesting that at all. Merely stating a fact that the logic used in coding the survey has a major flaw. No need to get your feathers all ruffled.

--... ...-- -.. . -.- -... ---.. .--- ...- .... ... -.- ..
Posted by KB8JVH on 2003-09-12

reason to keep Morse proficiency exam

Although I stated that I could agree with replacing the Morse proficiency exam with a much more comprehensive written exam, I still feel that the Morse proficiency exam is the only way to preserve the art and skill of CW. I don't believe that many hams or ham wannabe's would make the effort to learn Morse code unless they have to learn it for a test. Many who had to learn it in order to gain access to HF found out that they like it and want to continue to use it. I admit that I wouldn't have learned Morse code if it wasn't a requirement for the General upgrade. Now, three years after passing my Morse exam, I am in the process of re-learning it - not for an exam (I am an Extra - no more upgrades), but for myself, because I want to start using it on the air. If I hadn't learned Morse code 3 years ago, I doubt that I would be willing to undertake the task of learning it now. So, this is another good reason to keep the Morse exam. Preserve the art and skill of CW, and expose hams to a mode that most wouldn't bother to learn if not for the exam requirement. Try CW. You may just find that you like it. I am in favor of limited HF phone and CW privileges for no-code Technician licensees. It would enable them to get a taste of HF and get their feet wet. Once they get a taste of HF, they may feel that they want more of it bad enough to learn 5 WPM Morse code and get the upgrade to General.
Posted by AG4RQ on 2003-09-12

Survey Trashed By No Coders!

Posted By:AG4RQ "Isn’t it obvious that the no-coders are stuffing the ballot box? All it takes to vote here is an account on eHam. How many participants voted multiple times using multiple eHam accounts? This survey should not be taken seriously. It has no validity and no credibility.".


I agree 100%,just yesterday the NO votes had a 2 to 1 Lead over the Yes votes! This survey has been trashed by the No Code PAC.

Why would they do this? Well,they have something to GAIN! They have a greater motive to stuff the ballot box.W8VOM


Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-12

KB8JVH Sez: "Looks like someone has all ready figured out how to stuff the ballot box as the pro coders were 2 to 1 yesterday."

No, it just means that the pro-coders figured out how to stuff the ballot box first!

:)
Posted by W9JOL on 2003-09-12

Survey comments

Very well could be. :)
Posted by KB8JVH on 2003-09-12

What Motive?

W9JOL Writes "No, it just means that the pro-coders figured out how to stuff the ballot box first! :) "

Hmmmm,I can understand the No Coders motive in stuffing the ballot box as they have "something" to GAIN! The Pro Coders have Nothing to gain by stuffing the ballot box..We have what they so desperatly WANT-HF Privs...I rest my case.W8VOM
Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-12

AG4RQ...damn, that's what I've been saying all along...limited HF, even if only one band. Then take the test to get the rest. And have a real written test. The way it is now, it doesn't prove any real technical understanding.
KB8JVH... No ruffles here, just making a point...funny the reference to feathers. When I was a teenager I had long hair and wore a backwards baseball hat. My hair flipped up around the edge a bit and looked a little like wings. A couple of old friends still call me bird to this day.
Anyway, I think this may be my last post on this survey.(unless someone starts ragging on me) And to think, with all the bickering I've done, I didn't even vote.
It's been fun all.....
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-12

Keeping CW

My understanding of the testing procedure is to make it well rounded and cover all aspects of Ham Radio. CW being a viable mode of operation availbe to us, wether we choose to use it or not, should be on the test. The latest written tests out are mainly covering digital, SSTV and EME. I do not use any of these modes available to me. My interest is in SSB and CW. I don't complain about the written test because it covers all modes available to me. I don't understand why people believe that it should be removed simply because other oragizations have removed it. Being outdated is not a reason, just an excuse. Can anyone give me a reason and, not an excuse, to remove a mode of operation available to every Ham from the testing??
Posted by N0FQN on 2003-09-12

Keeping CW

My understanding of the testing procedure is to make it well rounded and cover all aspects of Ham Radio. CW being a viable mode of operation availbe to us, wether we choose to use it or not, should be on the test. The latest written tests out are mainly covering digital, SSTV and EME. I do not use any of these modes available to me. My interest is in SSB and CW. I don't complain about the written test because it covers all modes available to me. I don't understand why people believe that it should be removed simply because other oragizations have removed it. Being outdated is not a reason, just an excuse. Can anyone give me a reason and, not an excuse, to remove a mode of operation available to every Ham from the testing??
Posted by N0FQN on 2003-09-12

CW

Here we go again. I'll only say a couple of things. We are in the 21st Century!! Lets move on to 21st Century topics! Last, but very important is the premise that code makes you a better ham. I have, on numerous occasions, heard some of the lousiest signals in my life that are coming from people that were licenced when code was king (and that includes alot of 20 wpm Extras too!). Knowledge of CW doesn't seem to make better ham operators. Mayb e we should test all types of emmissions (check out PSK31 sometime and look at overmodulated signals with harmonics all over the place, and then, if you can read the call sign, look them up and see when they were licensed and what class operator they are. You'll be suprised!). The last beauty was an Extra on Field day who called "CQ Contest" for 10 minutes, had probably 50 returns, and never heard one of them. You can transmit on a "Dummy Load", but they don't hear well at all!! You can hate me, but just check out what I have said and you just might see that the justification that CW testing produces better operators is just not valid.
Posted by K2VJK on 2003-09-12

CW

Hi All!
I like to work CW very much , but... People have the rights not to like and not to think like me, This is a nature of human beeing - is tendency to be free of inconvenience. So , we need to change the patern of forcing people to different patern - to allow them to choose. Freedom is everything!
Isn't it!

With respect to all
I.Klein
4X6DT
Posted by 4X4DT on 2003-09-11

CW

CHANGE IS COMMING.
Posted by AA3WS on 2003-09-11

Keep The Code

First of all I do not like CW. But I wanted to talk on the HF bands. So I worked hard on the 13 WPM and got it just so I could Talk.

At least keep the 5 WPM.
Doug KA5ROW

Posted by KA5ROW on 2003-09-11

I don't like to work CW and I don't want to go thru all the trouble of learning it. So why should I have to. CW is outdated and being eliminated so I will not learn it and I will get my general license. End of story.
Posted by TECH2003 on 2003-09-11

code

RE: KG6AMW..here's the case without any off beat remarks. 2 years ago the code requirement was dropped to 5wpm. There was a flood of folks that arrived on our bands that talked filth...They are rude...sorry operators. They use their cb handles on our 2 meter machines plus cb 10 codes. They do the same on some hf freq's. When one of us tries to talk to them most of us get cussed out. We have tried to elmer them but they wont listen. This is the case and these were the smarter of these types..they have actually passed 5 wpm. What do you think its going to be like on our bands when thousands more enter that were not smart enough to pass the code or to lazy?? Just imagine. Lots of us have already had hands on experiance with these types and its terrible. Its not that i got my extra at 20 wpm and you got yours at 5 wpm. As we're being referred to as the "elite" well none of us feel that we are any better than you but what separates us is the attitudes of these new type of folks and their operating habits. They are bringing their cb talk and operating habits to hf and 2 meters and not changing. I've even been told to turn my rig off if i didnt like what i was hearing...and i've tried to be an elmer to several of these folks.

73
John WR8D
Posted by WR8D on 2003-09-11

A Common Bond

I served in Vietnam as an infantryman, after serving in combat I, and those like me received a "Combat Infantry Badge" This designation tells the world that all who wear that badge "Have been there and done that". I share that badge with those who fought before me, and those who are currently fighting in Iraq 35 years after I fought in Vietnam.

The code is kind of like that, it is a fraternal badge of sorts. When I see a soldier wearing that badge, we share an instant bond, decades of time become meaningless, we are brothers. So it is with the code. Everyone who passed the code test earned his "Badge". Perhaps that is why it is such an emotional issue. If they started handing out CIBs for going out to the rifle range those of us who had earned it the real way would become very irritated.
Posted by KB6TRR on 2003-09-11

CW

Hi All!
I like to work CW very much , but... People have the rights not to like and not to think like me, This is a nature of human beeing - is tendency to be free of inconvenience. So , we need to change the patern of forcing people to different patern - to allow them to choose. Freedom is everything!
Isn't it!

With respect to all
I.Klein
4X6DT
Posted by 4X4DT on 2003-09-11

again ?

I am a no-code tech. I guess that makes me a no good, lazy, good for nothing, want everything for free with no effort piece of crap. Maybe I'll learn code so I can instantly become a fine upstanding "real ham" and earn the respect of all. From what I read on E-Ham it's the Know-Coders who are the arrogant, insulting, holier than thou a**holes who can't defend their precious code without resorting to insults. (And yes that was meant to be one) Many of you state you didn't want to learn the code at first but did it anyway because you HAD to, and now that you know it your somehow better than me. You don't know my technical ability or what other hobbies I enjoy. How many times have I heard.."anybody can learn it, it's so easy." Well then I guess it really doesn't prove squat if you know it, does it? I really don't give half a rats rear if they keep the test or not. If I want HF I'll take it, but if what I see here is a preview of the "real hams" I'll meet on HF you can keep it. Oh, I live in NYC and when pretty much the whole northeast lost power the hams that I heard helping were using voice. Maybe you should all be fighting FOR bpl, the noise will be so high that maybe code will be the only way to communicate on HF. Then maybe your doomsday prediction of code being the only way to get trough will be true (unless you go up to VHF or UHF). If some catastrophic event should happen where code really is THE only way to communicate I will probably be too busy foraging for food and building a shelter out of radioactive rubble to care. If I offended all of you, I apoligize. If I offended some of you, good, I'm tired of being insulted by all the lazy, no good, etc... comments.
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-11

Get Rid Of It !

In truth, CW in today's world is useless. It serves no practical purpose whatsoever except for nostalgic recreational hobby radio contacts. The CW requirement for obtaining a hobby radio license only keeps bright, enthusiastic contemporary people out of our hobby. If someone has interest in CW they will embrace it on their own like any other mode.

I've been licensed since 1959 at the age of 12 and I was tested by the old methods. For two decades I operated CW. If it weren't for the moronic conversations and sloppy fists I might still operate that mode. However, these are new days with many wonderful modern digital modes. We must all get with the program and eliminate this antiquated code requirement so that new young people can occupy our bands with brilliance.
Posted by K2XL on 2003-09-11

Keep the code...

Anyone who says that PSK31 is more reliable and robust than CW has never extensively used both modes. The only other digital mode that is as reliable as CW under the worst conditions is Feld-Hell, and it works the same way via keying on and off a CW transmitter! Try and work PSK over the pole to EU from the West Coast... good luck! But, CW is readable thru the polar flutter.

Anyone who thinks that PSK31 is more 'efficient' than CW needs to look at both modes on a digital software waterfall. PSK31 can theoretically be better than CW, but you'd be hard-pressed to put any more PSK QSOs in a frequency range than you could CW QSOs... especially if you use a computer as a decoder OR if you have good filtering capabilities on your rig (like passband tuning and cascadable filters, or GOOD DSP filters). This is partially due to the method of implementation... running soundcard audio thru an interface to the mic input of a rig is not the cleanest audio path. Now, a rig that implemented FSK for PSK31 and took direct digital information from a computer would be interesting... but nothing like that exists today for PSK31.

Give all Techs Tech-Plus privileges. That gets 'em on HF but they MUST use CW. There's no way that a person can spend a month having several CW QSOs a week and NOT learn enough CW to pass the 5 wpm test. And, if they're too stubborn to learn, then they can buy a CW decoding program/device, and let IT decode... just as if they were running PSK31.

The ARRL should come up with a special award for WAS with these Tech Pluses... to encourage more Generals-and-above to go to the Novice subbands and work these guys.

Keep everything else the way it is. We have more General-and-above hams now than we have had in the history of US amateur radio. It isn't broke... so don't fix it.

Re CW being dead... the largest growing segment of the ham radio market is in the small QRP rigs (FT-817, Elecraft K1/K2 and their new rig, other kit-built rigs). Any Tech Plus is able to work tons of DX if he's willing to spend a couple hundred dollars and build a kit radio. That's the beauty of CW... you don't need a computer, an amp, a fancy beam antenna, an equalizer... you just need a good basic rig and a little patience.

Anyone can pick up their cell phone and "work DX". Anyone (with the proper license and QTH) can spend $10,000 on a station and get DXCC within a few weeks -- but where's the challenge? And anyone can build a good QRP CW rig from a kit, throw up their own antenna, and work the world on 5 watts.... isn't THAT more rewarding, like eating the fish you caught instead of the one you bought?

I'm all for keeping the code requirement, because I believe that if it is eliminated the vast majority of those who will be allowed to use HF without passing the code test will find it BORING... where's the challenge in turning on a commercial rig, firing up the amp, and working someone with a full gallon? Kind of like hunting squirrels with a shotgun... a take-it-or-leave it sport, but when you change to a good bolt-action .22 rifle it becomes perhaps the most challenging hunting out there. If you don't hunt or know guns you won't get this... suffice it to say that you can make a lot of errors with a shotgun in both hunting and shooting, but you can't with a rifle IF you want to have squirrel for dinner.

I'll end with a quote from JFK: "We don't go to the moon because it is easy, but because it is hard!" The challenge is what makes it worthwhile, and separates the utilitarian from the enthusiast. Only the latter can, and will, save ham radio. The former will find that EchoLink over BPL is more reliable and will consider the loss of the HF bands a worthwhile trade.

Posted by KD7KGX on 2003-09-11

In days of old when Ops were bold and sideband not invented, messages were passed by pounding brass and all were quite contented.

Unlike SSB-PSK or RTTY..Morse code is a skill worth preserving! The best way to preserve Morse code is to require testing.
I can honestly say that if Morse code was not required I would have never learned it "Voluntarily". Today I love the mode of CW that I was required to learn more than 20 years ago.For most people..if you have to explain the Joy and Skill of Morse code they will never understand it.The best way to preserve Morse code is continued testing!
Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-11

A previous post said that cw operators are stupid. Well we do have hf priviledges and you don't.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-11

again ?

No, the best way to preserve it is to use it. Try to show some younger people WHY it is loved by so many, don't just insult them and tell them put up or shut up. Nobody is trying to stop you from using code. Most of the people who don't want or intend to use code but are forced to learn it for a test will learn just enough to pass and then forget it, so what's the point? And Morse code is NOT a language. You pound out code in your native language but the code itself is a MODE, a primitive DIGITAL MODE.
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-11

again ?


W5UX...

Is that your best argument?
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-11

Other troubling signs of dumb...

TECH2003 said,
"I think that learning the code is to much work."

I guess learning two use proper grammar and spelling is two hard two?
Posted by BUFFOON on 2003-09-11

Beware the internet

I am a new ham so what I say should be taken with a grain of salt I suppose. I have heard all sirts of arguments pro and con regarding the retention of the code. When I was studying the code for my general class I went through what I thought was a living hell. I am 36 years old and I learned the wrong way to start with. Enough said.

I do think however that we need to look at theinternet. It is a wonderful tool which when used correctly yields fantastic results. Yet there is no requirement on the part of any individual to prove that they are competent to us the internet. This lack of a requirement has lead to a slew of pornography and absolutely insane material. So much so that parent have to watch their kids on the web and they have to install all manne of filter because in the name of free speech anyone can present them with less than savoury material. And so I see ham radio. I know that I am banging my head out trying to pick my speed up but okay maybe not everyone who has a General ticket does not use CW on a regular basis. The point is that they had to have the discipline to pass it. I hate to sound exculsionary (if that isa word) but ham radio is a fantastic hobby and it would be a crting shame for it to go the way of the internet, and it will if we do not maintain some form of screening process. I realize it is hard to pass the CW test for some but I am convinced that given the time and real attention to practice anyone can pass it. For goodness sake it is only 5 WPM which as an old guy told me once is ridiculous.
And just in case someone says that we should not be useing a screening process and that such actions are border on discrimination, my response would be to ask what they think the testing requirement is. Nothing more than a test of competency. Why is it so difficult to retain the CW requirement to keep the bands pure with individuals who are dedicated. Yes some will slip trough but not as many as if we got away from the CW altogether. CW represents a different set of skills and should be viewed as a means of weeding out and of training new and qualified hams.
Sorry if this offends but if you sit and really give it a little thought it is true.

Chip
Posted by KI4AFO on 2003-09-11

was CW; now Grammar

I'm getting the distinct feeling that this thread is becoming one of those "code vs. no-code" debates...could that be the case? I want to change it!


Let's have it be a tutorial on "your vs. you're," and "its vs. it's!" OK: If you want a contraction for the words "you are," ONLY, use "you're." Don't say, "...if you think code shouldn't be a requirement for licensure, your wrong," say rather, "...if you think code shouldn't be a requirement for licensure, you're wrong."


As to its/it's: there's a very simple test to see which one to use...just ask yourself, "would this sound right if I wrote "it is?" Then use "it's." Mostly, we add the apostrophe to make a word possessive, as in, "the dog's bowl," but if it's the possessive for "it," there's no comma! As in, "the dog licked its bowl." That's the funny rule. Easy, no?
Posted by K3ESE on 2003-09-11

cw

I wish the FCC would officially just get rid of the requirement for CW (which I think they will eventually do anyway) so this topic will go away forever. Isn't anybody tired of this discussion for the billionth time?
Posted by FJGH on 2003-09-11

CW on Star Trek ?

Does anyone recall an episode of Star Trek where someone tried to communicate with Enterprise using CW ? Uhuru was the only one who could copy CW ... wonder if she's a ham ? Oh well, it was obsolete far into the future, but there was still someone who could copy code. ... Perhaps CW should be replaced with grammar and psychological testing to weed out the undesirables. There ought to be some way to keep out the idiots who cause malicious interference.
Posted by N9AVY on 2003-09-11

Keep it for the Extra

Although it probably will not happen, I think we should keep the code requirement for the Extra testing. The Extra implies levels of knowledge and operating technique not tested for in the other classes.

73
George
K3UD
Posted by K3UD on 2003-09-11

CW

Keep the CW bands. Drop the CW requirement. Then we all can get back to the real issues of Amateur Radio..... " The Amateur service is for qualified persons of all ages who are interested in radio technique soley with a personal aim and without pecuiniary interest." Quoted from the Radio Shack Technician class study guide as quoted from the FCC. And we all know it is to foster and maintain a qualified pool of electronic technicians and radio operators.
CW will go away as a requirment, but may it live as a Mode for anyone who wants to use it forever.
There is enough modes in this hobby for everyone to enjoy. Thank goodness for SSB, RTTY, PSK and other modes. If it were not for them the CW bands would be so crowded a person could not use them.
Drop the CW and bring all HAMS back into the common bond of comunicating by radio. No matter what the MODE or class License one holds.
Posted by N0MLR on 2003-09-11

All right John, good comments. I obtained my license 3 years ago. I’ve met many recently licensed hams that were quite frankly polite and were well informed. However, I’ve seen several problem areas in ham radio. 1) Jamming, both intentional and unintentional. Sometimes it clear what they are up to and other times it appears that the operator had no clue. There is no way to tell how long they have been licensed. 2) Most operators seemed ok, except in an area called the war zone here in California (7.255MHz). All participants here are long time, licensed hams going back 25 years in some cases. Their language and subject matter are quite crude. As for CB type of conduct, I haven’t seen it much of it here. I sometimes hear what sounds like some fairly low brow type of operators, but they don’t cause me much pain unless forced to listen. I suspect there have always been the low brow operators around from day one. Now perhaps your experience is different in your location, I just haven’t seen the influx of new problem operators here.

As for the cw test requirement, well, the present case for it to go away has not been made. Here are some commonly presented arguments as to why it should be eliminated. 1) The commercial world no longer uses cw as a form of communication. Ok, this is a good position, but not by itself. 2) Technicians are not upgrading because of the cw requirement. There is no evidence to support this. This is only an opinion with no independent confirmation. 3) CW is a burden to the applicant. No idea of what they were trying to convey here. 4) Morse code does not mean proficient operator. Well ok, what really does then? It’s a position that cannot be supported or rejected. 4) CW testing is a burden for VEC’s. How is it a burden? They report that it’s disruptive to other test takers. I guess the point they are making, is it’s like sitting in the dentist office and hearing the drill run in the next room. It’s a non-point. 5) CW is a burden to amateur community and prevents others from being amateur radio operators. The current number of licensed hams doesn’t support this position. 6) CW testing is a burden to the FCC. This is a red herring. There have always been operators with physical disabilities that seek FCC waivers. What caused it to become a burden now? 7) WRC 2003 Conference determined that CW test requirement does not have to be a requirement for testing. It also means that each country will determine whether or not cw will be maintained as a test requirement. How does this turn into a pro argument for doing away with CW?

So far, the case to eliminate the cw testing requirement has not been made. But the case that its elimination as a test requirement will allow the hordes to come in is not a strong one either.

KG6AMW

Posted by KG6AMW on 2003-09-11

There are good points on both sides and some bad excuses on both. Let's stop the attacks. Yes morse code is an effecient mode, and with a little effort most people can learn it. These points are not in dispute. The excuse to keep it as a requirement to weed out undesirables is bogus. ANY activity you enjoy in which you interact with other people you will find morons, even among cw operators. The arguenent that it shows dedication may be true BUT if a tech belongs to a club, gives time and effort to it or helps maintain the radios and repeaters etc., but does not know code, does that make them any less dedicated? If they experiment with different modes and try new things but don't use code are they lazy?
The question is not who is better than the other one, but is morse code so valuable in todays world to make it a REQUIREMENT to get on hf? "But it's tradition", you say. Well years ago when someone died they were layed out in the living room. When was the last time you had a dead person next to the TV? "It keeps the riff raff out", you say. Well there are just as many rude insulting comments (if not more) from the pro-code people on here. I actually do believe there should be some code requirement on certain frequencies, but to exclude the entire HF range because someone doesn't know morse code is rediculous in today's world.
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-11

Morse is NOT a mode...

I don't know about some of you but no radio *I've* ever seen had a "Morse" position on any knobs on the front panel.

CW is the "mode"; Morse is a "code" used when one wishes to pass intelligence on a carrier in the most simple way possible - turning that carrier on and off at a rate one can do by hand.

We are not testing a mode. We are testing a "code".


Posted by BUFFOON on 2003-09-11

CW

Well Gentlemen YOU Must Remember That ``REAL HAM`S DO CW``.73,Norm.
Posted by KB9YGD on 2003-09-11

Know-Code

Proficient use of CW requires that one be able to spell correctly.

Scanning the functionally illiterate posts here, I am starting to see why the mode is so hard for some people.....

Sending 5wpm code must really be a pain if you can only spell at 2wpm!

73

Blake N4GI
Posted by N4GI on 2003-09-11

There we go, LET THE INSULTS FLY without really adding anything. Makes me want to get right on HF to meet all these people. Morse code is a mode of communication just like speech, sign language and writing letters are all modes of communication.
Posted by KC2HJN on 2003-09-11

Keep CW testing

CW promotes good operating practices, and is a sufficient educational barrier to keep undesireable operators off of the crowded HF spectrum. The minute CW testing is dropped the HF spectrum will turn into a 11 meters band. Go listen to channel 9 and decide if you want it or not. If you really want to be a Ham, you can learn code. I passed 13WPM as a 12 year old, so I know passing 5WPM can be done by anyone with the mental capacity of a 12 year old.
Posted by WB4DGI on 2003-09-11

about wishing

For those of you blubbering about wishing the code would go away: My Father had a saying about wishing it went, wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one gets filled first. I carried this saying around in the back of my mind for years and don't every recall wishing something could go my way especially when I had the tools at hand to change the course of the way things were working. Again you ladies can cry and blubber all you want fact is if you put 1/2 as much effort into learning something you would already be there.
Posted by THEWISEONE on 2003-09-11

NO CALLS

Why are comments form NO CALLS allowed here
Posted by EI5FK on 2003-09-11

Know-Code

KC2HJN writes:
<>

I'd be more than happy to oblige. This brings to mind an interesting observation; I don't show a single one of these anti-code whiners in any of my logs (thousands of Q's).... at least the ones who are brave enough to publicize their calls.

What-up-wid-dat?

Blake N4GI
Posted by N4GI on 2003-09-11

Right On !

THEWISEONE commented that if those blubbering & whining put 1/2 as much effort into learning something they'd already be there. Well put ! ---

Wonder if I blubbered & whined enough about being financially challenged if anyone would send donations to me at Paypal, hi !

Jerry N9AVY
Posted by N9AVY on 2003-09-11

Show some dedication...

I've been licensed for 9 years and just passed my 5WPM last year. It's not that I never tried before, it's just that I would practice for a couple weeks or so and get a few more letters down and end up not having time for a while to work on it and then I would eventually get back to it again. I always wanted to get it down and knew that I would get it at some point. I knew that I had to do it if I even wanted to work HF and it's not that I didn't want to learn code. I like CW and fully support it remaining a requirement. I've been inactive for about 3 years and now I'm engaged and living with my fiancee and now have the opportunity to get back on the air. I will be doing so after I take care of some financial obligations. I was surprised to learn that 5WPM was the only requirement. (It goes to show just how inactive I was!) I can honestly say I was kind of disappointed. I was excited when I passed the 5WPM and was looking forward to moving up to 10. It's not like I can't do it anyways, but it was still kind of disappointing. I feel 5WPM is a great requirement for Technician and General, but I'm thinking that perhaps 10WPM would be alright for Extra class licensees. I definitely would not support dropping CW requirements for all license classes. I think having a no-code entry is great, and I'm not speaking as a previous no-code licensee, but for goodness sake, don't drop it entirely.

73,
Chris KB9RHA

P.S. Hi to Jerry, N9AVY. I talked to you a couple times on the KB9I machine years ago. Actually, I think it may have been you that had to turn off the repeater when I slipped with the "F-word" once. lol I used to be N9XCR. Just wanted to say hi! :D
Posted by KB9RHA on 2003-09-11

REMOVE ELEMENT ONE.

REMOVING ELEMENT ONE WILL NOT KILL AMATEUR RADIO AT ALL.when and if it is dropped as test requirement you will not see droves of newbies right away activity will increase gradually and for the most part the bands will be normal business as usual.NO RADICAL CHANGES WILL OCCUR.we all will go with the flow and move on forward as we always have in the past accept change and move on.posted by N2NZJ TOM
Posted by N2NZJ on 2003-09-11

Retain Morse Testing!

The No Coders have a lot to GAIN and that is why they are "more vocal" than Know Coders on the FCC comment section! We have
what they *want* because we worked for it.
Now the No Coders are working for HF privs
but they prefer to do this by "whining" and
not learning a new Skill. Sadly..their whining may prevail simply because they are
more vocal on the FCC comments section.
Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-10

Civil War

The ham community has become an all out civil war. Pro-codes against No-codes.
Whatever the FCC deside to do about CW requirements for HF. Ham radio will survive. And yes Alice CW will survive too, test or no test. Let's just stop putting each other down and work toward bettering the hobby instead of tearing it apart.
Posted by KC5NMW on 2003-09-10

Morse Testing

Unlike others in this forum,I do not see this as a war at all. It is about preserving a time tested Tradition! Without required Morse testing,this valued skill will not survive another 30 years. Why? well..how many would learn Morse code if it were not required? If we remove Morse testing the Skill and Tradition of Morse code will fade away.Preserve Morse code by continued Testing and using the skill.W8VOM
Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-10

CW Test

I support no CW test for General Class and a 15-WPM test for Extra. Have only two classes - General and Extra. Generals can use all current CW and phone sub-bands except the current Extra CW sub-bands. All current license classes, except Extra, would be changed to General.
Posted by W4YA on 2003-09-10

CW... Going Going Gone!

The cw requirement is history. It is only a matter of time until it becomes official in the US as it has in other countries. And if it is so wonderfully efficient, then the cw subband can be substantially shrunk.

Some of the problem with people who think of ham radio as cw is similar to those who thought of the Army as cavalry and caissons. Nice for a museum but hardly useful for getting the job done in the modern world.
Posted by MY_OPINION on 2003-09-10

No More Dumbing Down

The real issue here is the dumbing down of the tests which occurred when the test answers were released to the public. Ham tests are now simply memory tests.

I would like to keep the code requirement, but would be willing to give it up if the test questions were no longer published.
Posted by W1DLS on 2003-09-10

Seems to me that CW has always been a question of "I don't want to learn this stuff and you can't make me !"; at least this has been my finding during the past 25+ years. CW has always been an obstacle for those who were not motivated. It slowed me down for about 18 years until I figured out that I could learn it. A friend of mine went to Handi-hams last year and ran into a woman who could only communicate by sending CW with her tongue - at 35 wpm ! If she can learn CW then those who complain of "tone deafness" and other assorted excuses may need to rethink things. Yes, CW is not for everyone, but the 5 wpm minimum is ridiculously slow and anyone should be able to pass that requirement. It all boils down to the dumbing down of ham radio with newbies wanting a free ride. After CW is gone what will they have to whine about ???
Maybe the FCC should raise power limits to 100 KW ... or would that be too low ???
Posted by N9AVY on 2003-09-10

People talk about how bad CW is. I have never heard of someone challenging CW with their favorite mode. The ARRL conducted tests on vertical and horizontal antennas for vhf. They conducted a test fo find out whether PSK-31 or MFSK-16 got through better. Lets compare CW to other modes. I have been asking ARRL to do that for years. Perhaps big business has put pressure on them.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-10

Tradition?

W8VOM mentioned that CW is part of Ham Radio's tradition.

But tradition doesn't count for much anymore - especially when it is (wrongfully) perceived as elitist. The handwringers are out there waiting to pounce on a once-great hobby. Those of us who endured, embraced or otherwise handled Morse testing can only watch.

Removing the Morse testing will NOT be the savior of ham radio. Removing it will not bring in the enthusiastic, experimenter types that ham radio so desperately needs. No matter what the No-coders say.

Mike N2MG
Posted by N2MG on 2003-09-10

Morse as language

Thanks to Mike, N2MG for the most thoughtful comment I've seen on this subject for a long time, namely that Morse is not a mode, it's a language. Until I read their petition (RM-10786) and commented on it to the FCC, I didn't know that "No Code International" was an actual organization. (I thought it was a spoof, something like "Last Two International" on AA0MZ's entertaining web-site.) How sad that these people can't stand even a minimal Morse proficiency requirement as a pre-requisite for HF operation. Only a small fraction of the human population is truly incapable of memorizing the Morse code characters at 5 words per minute,and accomodations have been made for years for those individuals.
Posted by NI0C on 2003-09-10

Oh GEEZ!

Let's not remove the requirement for CW in HAM radio! It's bad enough that some parts of 75 meters and 2 meters are turning into another CB 11-meter "chicken band"! Don't get me wrong, CB has its place and can still be a useful tool, but it's NOT HAM radio. Let's keep the two seperate, please...

Scott Heath (AF4KK)

Posted by AF4KK on 2003-09-10

otherwise qualiied?

I am so sick and tired of reading the same old garbage, you know, "the morse requirement blocks otherwise qualified person from becoming ham radio operators"... BULL! Does this statement mean that we are the ignorant morons that busted our humps to achive a goal? The whiners would have you think so.
Posted by OBSERVER11 on 2003-09-10

KNOW Code

Morse Code can be used with the simplest equipment and under the worst conditions. Therefore it is an important means for getting a message through, whether it be for pleasure or public safety. Amateur radio's mission, as well as its time honored traditions, are well served by retention of Morse Code testing, which opens up a whole new world for those determined souls who can pass a 5WPM decoding test. The band plans should be left alone, in this regard, although I wouldn't have a problem with opening the Novice/Tech portions of the HF bands to no-coders. This is now actionable under WRC and should satisfy the Hams who want to legally get their feet wet in CW. In this way they can also buy real equipment for practicing code and listening . With no-breakin capability on modern transceivers, practice oscillators or dummy loads aren't needed to practice code. A modern transceiver and some decoding software (computer too) would enable a no-coder to self-test a bit before trying to communicate, but when they're comfortable, just go to the Novice portion of the band and give it a shot. The pass rate at the VEC 5WPM testing will greatly improve too and getting access to the full CW spectrum retains its meaning!
Posted by N3XL on 2003-09-10

What is Europe doing?

Sure some of Europe and other countries have retired their testing. But since when is it "American" to follow what our (often socialist) European or Anglo brethren do?

For better or worse, we often stand alone.

I'm waiting to see what the Eastern European countries do in this regard - their recent history of having to endure dumbing-down policies has made them hyper-aware of protecting traditions like this.

They are also some of the fastest CW ops...


Posted by BUFFOON on 2003-09-10

CW

If they really wanted access to the HF bands, they would do what they have to do. In the meantime another day goes by without those privileges. They are having more fun posting on these forums.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-10

CW

Many of these new hams would realize that CW is a blast if they would get up the nerve to give it a try on the air. While I agree that a no-code requirement would encourage more people to get their license, I think code should be a requirement to upgrade to a higher class of license.
Give no-code licensees limited access to most HF bands, and then open the bands up when they advance to a higher class and pass a code test (It doesn't have to be 20 WPM, like in the past---maybe 10 WPM, or maybe (gulp) just 5WPM.)
73,
Bruce, KGØLH
Posted by Bruce C. Kliche on 2003-09-10

W3BUG

Here we go again with another example of America "dumbing-down" something so that all the whiners can have access to it. I guess the next thing will be drivers license testing . . . . . eliminate the driving test portion and just give everyone the written. Gee, I remember at one time, long ago, that you actually needed a licensed call for just CB, but that got eliminated too. Just a matter of time before we all start to hear "4-D-Roger" and "10-4 Good Buddy" on a 20 meter QSO. Sure, I am only a General, and took the test under the newer 5wpm code requirement but I had to EARN that license. I just didn't memorize a bunch of answers and grab a mike and start yacking, I am proud that I struggled to get my ticket.

Scott - W3BUG
Posted by W3BUG on 2003-09-10

Why?

I think that learning the code is to much work. We should get HF without all the trouble of CW.
Posted by TECH2003 on 2003-09-10

It's A Great Hobby!

Amateur Radio is truly a great hobby and CW is part of the hobby. That being said, there is plenty of room for people in this hobby who don't "know" the code. However, I feel strongly that the Extra Class license should require a minimum CW Test(say 12 WPM like in the FISTS proposal). Eliminating the code requirement entirely is a mistake IMHO.
Posted by K2WO on 2003-09-10

Know Code....

Sure! I say let every shack-on-a-belt geek have access to HF....

They will all quickly get sick of gabbing to each other about why their store-bought dipole antennas won't work, and how to plug their two-dollar plastic walmart microphones into the sound cards of their 4GHZ Linux boxes, and they just might decide to get real and try CW...

Until then, have fun up there chaps!! (in the phone band, that is)

73,
Blake N4GI
Posted by N4GI on 2003-09-10

Tradition And Skill

Keep the Tradition and Skill of Morse code (alive) with continued testing. N2MG states that tradition does not count for much anymore: That is part of the problem! People do not see this tradition as having a useful purpose.Morse testing should not be used as a filter,it should remain a requirement to preseve a Skill and a Tradition that is worth preserving! Should we throw away Slide Rules because we now have computers??? Morse code is a Skill and a Tradition worth preserving. Morse testing is part of that preservation. Not many would learn the code if it were not a requirement.W8VOM
Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-10

Lets see, “shack-on-a-belt geek”, “another example of America "dumbing-down”, “just a matter of time before we all start to hear 4-D-Roger and 10-4 Good Buddy on a 20 meter QSO”, “CB 11-meter "chicken band types”, all recent references to those who would like to see the cw test requirement done a way with. Maybe if you pro cw test requirement guys could come up with a little better argument, you might make your case. Right now all your doing is creating hard feelings and engendering class warfare. I don’t have a position yet on this matter, but I do know when I see bunch of narrow minded people killing ham radio because they can’t properly present their position on why the cw test requirement should be maintained without the personal attacks. Make your case, but stop the personal attacks.

KG6AMW

Posted by KG6AMW on 2003-09-10

CW

Those who condemn others for not wanting to learn CODE, have made the CW TESTING issue thier GOD and worship him at every chance... They belittle and character assasinate all the opposition. The CW CULT needs to end! Morse code is not used enough to warrent it to be a test requirement. Code will not Die as some propose, The world will contine as before, It's not the end of the world!
Posted by N0KLU on 2003-09-10

Morse Not Used Enough?

N0KLU writes "Morse code is not used enough to warrent it to be a test requirement." Wow are you way off base! Morse code is very popular! Morse code is only a cult to they that cannot or better yet,will not learn this Skill.Just look at this poll,the Majority Favor Retention of Morse testing.Unlike YOU,we believe in Democracy!Let the majority decide what they want.
Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-10

CW

CW ALL THE WAY!
Posted by KX2S on 2003-09-10

Know Code or hit the Road

CW All the Way !!!
Posted by W5AU on 2003-09-10

Numbers here mean nothing!

This survey is being used by the pro-cw crowd as a vindication of thier opinion. Problem is, if you look at the comments filed on the petitions up for viewing on the FCC web site you will see that its almost the opposite of the results of this survey.

I want the requirement removed so the arguing can stop, from a 13wpm General that can't stand fellow HF licensees beating up on the no-coders without offering any type of help in learning the code, i say for shame on you. Just eliminate the requirement and get it over with.

73


Posted by RFSOAKED on 2003-09-10

A compromise

Since these no-coders so desperately want to operate on HF, let them have cw only privileges . How 'bout that for openmindedness. I'm so sick of listening to their incessant whining.
Larry
WA8QNN
Posted by WA8QNN on 2003-09-10

Tell the FCC your opinion

RFSOAKED has a valid point in that comments posted here are meaningless as far as the FCC is concerned. I've submitted my comments on this subject to the FCC already, and would suggest that those with strong feelings do the same. 73 & SK
Posted by NI0C on 2003-09-10

good gosh

Seems that the amateur radio service is doomed due to _____________. Your choice.
Fill in the blank. Remember the addage "strength in numbers" ? Perhaps we should apply this to BPL, ___________, you fill in the blank again.
I do not work CW but I did learn it ......who of you really cares about that ??
Now how about this.
HF bands taken away due to no use , ordue to BPL, or ______________.
How about moving on to better amateur radio ?
Posted by W9JJS on 2003-09-10

CW FOREVER YES!!!

I certainly gather from the numbers here that CW is far from dead. Oh sure the crybabies are out bawling their eyes out, claiming this survery is started by CW ops and elitist people. Fact is lazy whining no-coders are on the outside looking in, right where you will always be. I speak for many when I say real hams do not and will not ever want you on HF until you pay your dues and learn CW. Quit your whining, get off your asses and study
Posted by THEWISEONE on 2003-09-10

BPL

sure BPL danger is very real, but lets not use it to shadow what is really happening here. Every swinging dick who stands to make a buck off of dropping the CW req is using this to divert attention from it.
Posted by THEWISEONE on 2003-09-10

CW

CW all the way!
Posted by W8OB on 2003-09-10

Test Extra's only!

Keep the code for the Extra test only -- and a small segment of each band for us Extra's working CW only....something to work for!
Posted by K6SDW on 2003-09-10

NCVEC's Petition

The petition is premature. Until the FCC acts on pending petitions greatly expanding Novice/Tech Plus/Tech-with-code certificate privileges, and until these changes have had time to ferment (several years), there's no point in the FCC's even considering the code/no code question.
Posted by W3ULS on 2003-09-10

Survey..

A very big NO !
Posted by K4KAL on 2003-09-10

keep the code

CW is the heart and soul of amateur radio. Eliminating the code requirement for HF would seriously and permanently degrade the pool of new hams. It was a mistake to allow any class of codeless hams in the first place.
The next logical step to eliminating the code test is eliminating the CW subbands, which would be FAR WORSE than BPL.
5WPM is EASY. Anyone who is too lazy or arrogant to learn code at 5WPM does not belong in amateur radio.
Posted by WA2DTW on 2003-09-10

CW

They don't have to take a code test. they bide their time operating on cb waiting for the code to go away. Also chatting on the repeaters. Elsewhere in this forum, we are accused of beating up on the no-coders. We did not start this. We were enjoying our ham bands when these intruders with the help of big business knocked open the door and began to take over.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-10

cw skill

so shall we eliminate the bar exam for lawyers or all but 1 year of med school for doctors ? pride, fun or just plain knowledge for the sake of learning does not come in a pill nor does it have a pull tab. Sir Edmund Hillary did not take the elevator!
Posted by KC4YVJ on 2003-09-10

CW

I don't do CW. then again I also don't do SSTV, PSK31, Satellite, Teletype, .....
But that does not mean they should be eliminated!
When I took my tests there were questions regarding all those modes even though I don't use them!...Ham radio provides many many niches.

When I took the code tests I struggled! It took a number of visits to the FCC office and VEC system to finally pass the dreaded code!
BUT!!! I am a firm believer that CW MUST REMAIN as part of ham radio! I have seen many situations where CW was the only method to communicate. Even the the Movie 4th of July the military used cw to tell the world how to destroy the aliens!

Cw is difficult for some but at 5 or 10wpm just about anyone with a pasion for Ham Radio can master it. Cw is an important language of communication ...perhaps the folks against CW may also be against algebra in our schools? I can't recall the last time while shopping I had to figure what "X" is???

I do think our Ham band plan needs to be updated though, we need to establish new boundries for cw, digital, AM, PSK31, SSB audio, SSCTV etc.etc. and perhaps expand the bands beyond what we have...for example why not petiton to expand 20 meters to 14.400mhz?

I rant......
In summary, CW is a very important aspect/mode of communications and Ham Radio...just because I do not care for the mode or find it relaxing..I still firmly stand that CW should and must remain within the Ham Radio establishment and within the testing for the HF license. I support an entry 5wpm and perhaps a 10 or 13wpm for extra licenses.

Marty ka7gkn
Posted by KA7GKN on 2003-09-09

9 lives

this horse has nine lives
Posted by OBSERVER11 on 2003-09-09

KA7GKN

KA7GKN:

Yes, SSTV, PSK31, satellite, teletype communications are on the ham radio exams. However, you conveniently overlooked the UNILATERAL authority of the CW exam. That ENTIRE exam is based on CW copying and is required for upgrading one's license. On the other hand, SSTV, PSK31, satellite, and teletype are all just small parts of the written exam. If you miss all of these questions on the written exam, you can still pass if you do well enough on the rest of the exam.

I maintain that CW TESTING should be eliminated. Remember: The objection is NOT CW itself but the TESTING REQUIREMENT! I would not object to incorporating CW questions into the written exams, but the unilateral power of the Element 1 test is unnecessary.
Posted by AG4DG on 2003-09-09

CW TESTING

There are those who, for selfish personal reasons, would have us go the way of CB. There are also folks who should not be Hams. If you can't make the grade, find another hobby. CW "is" Ham Radio. We are not like a car club, sewing club, stamp collecting, nor model trains. We are a hobby base of achievments, meeting standards, meeting goals. Again, we are not for the lazy, get it for nothing crowd. We are the elite of electronics/communications hobby. Cw makes us proud American Elitests. We don't want just anyone in our club. We want people who are always questioning, looking for reasons, looking for education. Some of you newbies think you are just gonna walk in here and ruin our hobby...aint so!!! Go away..
Posted by CWTITAN on 2003-09-09

CW

What to say when someone inevitably parrots, "Without CW it's just CB."

So what you mean is, Ham Radio = CB + CW.

Posted by AD7DB on 2003-09-09

CW Testing

I've said it before and I'll say it again. CW is just another MODE of operation, like phone, RTTY, etc. Requiring anyone to learn and be proficient in any mode for operation in specific bands is blatant descrimination. I don't wish to see the elimination of the CW portion of the bands, as some OF's still like this antiquated mode, and it would be unfair to them to abolish it. Just elimination of the requirement, as it does nothing to filter out the bad ops, and keeps the otherwise good ops off of HF. Knowing code has been stated as showing who is a more knowledgeable operator, and this is pure BS. Again, it's just another mode.
Posted by KD7EZE on 2003-09-09

CW Yes or No

If you can't spend the effort to learn the code, you donot deserve the name Amateur Radio Operator. Move on back to the Communist Band (CB) where you belong.

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.


WA4RQG
Posted by WA4RQG on 2003-09-09

CW Testing

Ever notice the blast of new equipment and technology on VHF & UHF. It is because of all the new no code hams. The market for equipment expanded and a commercial need is being filled.

The same thing could happen in the hf bands if we would loosen our strangle hold on license privilages.

I love CW for its tradition and history. When I want reliable communication I use the telephone.
Posted by N0NTH on 2003-09-09

CW ALL THE WAY

I think we need to get rid of the NCVEC's
to start with.The NCVEC is nothing but a JOKE to amateur radio.

Posted by N2BR on 2003-09-09

keeping the code

In the last 2 years since the requirement has been dropped to 5wpm in most places our 2 meter band has become a cb wasteland. Yes i'll grant you its not everywhere but its building up steam and showing up in more and more areas. Some of these op's are extra class but talk just like they did on cb. Its there now..we cant deny it. These were the smarter of the cb types too...remember these did pass the 5wpm. Just think what its going to be like when the 25 year hardcore veteran of chickenband arrives on our hf bands. Are you all deaf? Most of us have already had a taste of their attitudes. They are unelmerable. They come into the hobby already knowing more than the ve team that gave them the tests. How can anyone who loves amateur radio say do away with the code requirement. In my area i've had hands on experiance with these types. Our 2 meter machines are useless to a ham unless you like to use cb handles and 10 codes. We try to talk to these fools and they laugh in our faces. Take a look and listen to the 11 meter band now after the fcc pulled out. Can you sit there and honestly say you dont believe these types will not over run hf? If you can i hate to say it but you're a fool. We need to keep the code requirement.
73
John WR8D
Posted by WR8D on 2003-09-09

CW

For the General I say let them have no code. With a new test that is harder than the present one. Do not have any of the old Advanced questions in it as that should be in the Extra test. But for the Extra make them prove that they can use code by having a SEND and RECEIVE requirement. NOT just a receive and while at it have a retest for all Extras made in the last year just on the code. Set it as a friend says at the 20 wpm. Then see how many extras there would be in the pool.
Posted by N7TEE on 2003-09-09

"We don't want just anyone in our club"

It ain't "your club". Them ain't "your airwaves". Ham Radio isn't CW.
Posted by K5TED on 2003-09-09

CW Test

As long as there is no "meaningful" written exam, the code is all there is left to use as a gauge of interest. Anyone not willing to bend the little effort to learn 5 W.P.M. will probably not appreciate the privileges awarded with their Amateur Radio Operator License. The current written exam with the pre-published exact questions and answers offers little challenge!
Posted by K2OK on 2003-09-09

CW FOREVER

KC5NYJ, the airwaves are mine to share with any LICENSED ham.It is my club. I have paid my dues for 45 years in ways you can't imagine. Many of us Elite Extras have dedicated time, money, and education to be where we are. CW IS HAM RADIO. It has always been the base-line, always will. Rather than fight it, why not join it. Just get off your dead butt and learn the code, learn ohms law,and do things the way ham radio was meant to be. It is NOT a giveaway club unless you put something into it.
Posted by CWTITAN on 2003-09-09

Re: 9 lives


"this horse has nine lives" -- More like 9 million... Anyway...
"Do you favor doing away with the cw testing requirement for all amateur classes?" In a word, NO!

Good grief, show a little dedication and take pride in upgrading -- work for it. And 5 wpm isn't hard; it just requires a couple of weeks of discipline.

73 Clinton AB7RG


Posted by AB7RG on 2003-09-09

CW

Why keep the CW requirement? CW is a mode just like SSB, and you don't have to pass a test in CORRECTLY interfacing a rig to a soundcard for PSK31 in order to get on HF. If we keep CW, then require a test in CORRECTLY interfacing a rig to a computer for PSK31, and while were at it, RTTY (yeah, that one is STILL alive). And while we're at it, let's make it a requirement that you must make a satellite contact on AO-40 while doing a headstand on a bed of nails. I am fully prepared to get flamed for this one, so let me have it!!
Posted by KG4IHJ on 2003-09-09

Should licenses be redefined?

At least, operators should have to demonstrate they can read CW at 5 wpm before they are allowed on the CW portions.

Is a better definition of license structure and permissions needed?
Posted by KT8K on 2003-09-09

CW

Now a more civil and level-headed response. How about a time delineated system, where you must spend 1 or 2 years as a tech before you can upgrade to general, and then another few years before you can become a extra, regardless of how fast you learn code/theory. I have learned a lot just by listening and being around other hams, and I think that everyone could as well. Just a thought.
Posted by KG4IHJ on 2003-09-09

Morse Testing

Keep Morse Code Testing ...
Remember: Cant Learn CW=Wont Learn CW !.......

No more excuses,no more welfare hams! W8VOM
Posted by W8VOM on 2003-09-09

CODE vs. NOCODE

OK - I shouldn't respond to the name calling here, but I am one of those long time Extra Class "fools" who doesn't believe that eliminating the code test will actually change anything.

I've advocated a limited no-code license for over 30 years. The reasons have evolved just as the hobby and the technology have. But, more than ever, I believe that using Morse as a "filter" to protect us from hordes of CBers just dying to steal our bands is not necessary or justifiable anymore.

I also think that if FCC decides to continue the code requirement for HF access, they will eventually have to justify it. That will be very difficult when so many other industrialized countries have dropped it.

Yes, I too would change the non-code portion of the test to make it more pertinent and comprehensive, but I would not necessarily increase the difficulty.

The people you want to exclude have no interest in earning any kind of license. That's why we've gotten a lot of converts from CB , the vast majority of whom are good hams, but the hooligans have stayed largely on CB where their outlaw buddies are. They are drawn to the 'outlaw' aspect of CB - and the anonymity like here on the Internet - they are not really interested in radio for radio's sake or callsigns that ID them.

I've often wondered what would happen if a reverse invasion took place. What if FCC asked us hams to help track down and prosecute the bad apples on 27 Mhz. and 'freeband'? Obviously, some hams already do this, but what if it became a major 'sport' within the hobby? I suspect we would clean up 27 Mhz. in fairly short order.



Posted by K0RGR on 2003-09-09

NO CODE

Wow...Where do I start. Yes, I earned my Amateur Extra Class the old way. I am somewhat torn in both directions on the issue. We need to interest and bring in more qualified operators to the fold, especially if we are to keep what we have now. I don't think getting rid of Element 1A alone will solve that issue. Deep down, I guess, some code requirement for certain priviledges should remain. I also believe that as more experienced and mature operators, we should take more of an active part in recruiting and training new operators. By training, I don't mean memorizing the question pool either...Clubs are a good place to start or start one. For us contesters, give up just a couple of hours of running JAs on 40mtrs early in the morning and invite a couple of "recruits" and show them that aspect of the hobby. Same goes for DXing, digital modes, VHF, EME and on and on. The IARU just can't promote dropping the code requirements alone and expect that much more interest in our hobby. Maybe, only a full blown Madison Avenue marketing campaign can accomplish that.
Posted by KZ1A on 2003-09-09

THE REAL ISSUE

Guess this keeps everybody's mind of the real issue, the loss of a large chunk of our 10 mtrs and other bands to ILLEGAL OPERATORS
Not to mind the bunch that will now advocate the loss of the CW section of our bands to the new Lucky Bag Licence Hams that will appear onstream
Posted by EI5FK on 2003-09-09

No Mode Tests!

Groan.

Their main thrust is to eliminate the 5WPM test because it is too hard on their organization, and their VEs.

Pooor babies.

Too hard.

Easier testing method for them, stick a mirror under the applicants nose; if he is breathing, give him an Extra ticket.

Oooops. Can't do that. Mirror test is a MODE for checking is the applicant is alive.

If it is a mode, can't test on it!

Bob

Posted by X-WB1AUW on 2003-09-09

Keep the Code

OK, what do you do when your computer dies or your TNC craps out on you? No more RTTY, PSK, etc. Now you are left with phone and CW.
I saw where one poster above called CW testing "discrimination". Haha, what loser would make such a comment, discrimination indeed. Another professional victim.
So how do you propose to test for SSB, hold up a mic and press the PTT button?? (thats push-to-talk for you non-technical hams) CW proficiency is tested because you have to USE YOUR BRAIN to translate the sounds into letters/characters/wordes, etc, of course with phone that is not necessary. Just as you do not need a test for digital modes such as PSK because the computer DOES IT FOR YOU! You guys who bellyache about wanting a test for modes other than CW are grabbing at straws and your arguement is totally invalid. Using CW involves USING YOUR BRAIN and a certain amount of skill, no other modes requires that because a computer is doing it for you.
One more thing.. there is no such thing as a CW sub-band because you can operate CW ANYWHERE, remember?? Or is that another thing you do not want to learn?
Hey, I was tuning around 10 meters last night.. full of S. American CB'ers The band was wide open to Southern and Central America and I worked a V31. (it was on CW, so you CW haters missed a nice DX contact). He was the only ham I heard. The point is, we need to get on 10 meters and use it folks. Most of the intruders are in the area from 28.000 to 21.200, traditionally CW territory, so if you code haters want to help your hobby, learn it anyway and get down there and operate and help save 10 meters. Or maybe you'd rather your good buddies take it over.
Posted by WB4M on 2003-09-09

cw

1. Just because it's new (no cw) doesn't necessarily mean it's better.
2. "You only learn from the hard ones.
Posted by K7BON on 2003-09-09

CW

There are two groups that don't like CW. The CB types and people that sell radios, antennas and magazines. Together, they make a powerful group. 5 wpm is so easy, I don't consider it a barrier. Attitude is the barrier.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-09

If it's worth having...

It's worth working for!! No one hated CW more than me in the beginning, but one thing I wanted more than anything was my General ticket. It took me 3 tries to finally pass the 13wpm and on the 3rd try I nearly passed the 20wpm. What a sense of pride you have when you work at a task and finally achieve it. If it gets to the point of just cutting a check and sending in your form, I'll probably just let the ticket expire and move on to other more challenging hobbies.
Posted by KB8JVH on 2003-09-09

Learning disabled

30 years back when I was in my 20's I wanted to get a ham license. I was in the military and worked in radio maintenance. I tried to learn enough to get licensed, without success. I continued employment in electronics but gave up on ham radio. Last year I picked up a book on the tech license and found that I could get a license without code, so I did. I've played with vhf and uhf, and tried code again over a period of several months but it just doesn't seem to click. I now am a teacher and have tried to learn to speak Spanish but also cant seem to get more than a few words and phrases. I didn't learn to read well until I was about 14 or 15 years old. My point is that the code did keep me out of the hobby and some of us might actually have learning problems that prevent learning some skills. My feeling is that some sections of the bands should remain cw only, but some sections of all bands should be no code required.
Posted by KG6NRP on 2003-09-09

Morse is not a mode

To those who claim that a "mode" is being tested - you are WRONG. Morse is being tested - not CW. CW is a "mode". Morse is a code, a language. As such it has become part of Ham radio's culture. Anyone who thinks of ham radio, thinks of Morse code. They don't think of PSK or sideband.

Mike N2MG

Posted by N2MG on 2003-09-09

Morse

TO Learning disabled. Nonsense. You sure did learn the English language well. Good grammar and great spelling. English is a lot harder than Spanish. and morse is the easiest of them all. My question is "How long did you study Spanish and morse yesterday?" I am pretty sure what the answer will be. The word for today is espejo which means mirror. Tenga usted un buen dia.
Posted by W5UX on 2003-09-09

CW Debate, And the Moron Says?

And the Moron Says "______"

Not being a CW GEEK or NON CW Hero, look at it this way, CW will still be around. CW Testing is the Issue.

If you want to keep testing so bad, why don't you go in and take a CW Exam once a month to keep your HF Privlidges?

Didn't think so..

Posted by N1RWC on 2003-09-09

cw

First I have an advance ticket so I did pass my 13 wpm 27 years ago. I don't understand all the CB talk. I still think we need Ham operators period. I turn on my 2 meter rig and nothing is on it. I remember when I first got my ticket there were 1/2 as many repeaters 4 times as many conversations going on as there is now. I don't see where the no code tech has done anything negative for ham radio. If it wasn't for them around here you might as well throw your two meter rig away. So I say if you don't want to give no code all the phone at least give them some. I still like the English system of a learners permit. I think this would be a lot better than just having CW test. Terry
Posted by WB4QNG on 2003-09-09

More Deregulation?

Continued deregulation chips away at the key stone of Amateur Radio. Call it "dumbing-down", "affirmative-action", "making the service available to the masses...", prestige, honor, and respect are being eroded at an alarming rate. First, answers to the questions in the exams. Second, reducing the Morse requirement to 5-wpm. Third, the elimination of Morse proficiency.
What next? Signing on the dotted line licenses?

Wake-up...our service is being snatched-away right under our noses!


73 KG5JJ (Mike)
Posted by KG5JJ on 2003-09-09

Hmmmmm

I'm a middle aged fart who passed the 20 wpm for Extra years ago. I have also taught a ham class for kids and all 3 passed - aged 10, 11 and 13.

I do understand the need to bring in new blood. And I guess as long as each band preserves the bottom 25 khz for CW, then I am happy.

The best DX is CW - regardless of whether its a requirement in a test. But I wonder what my Extra class ticket means anymore - it used to mean I did a little something extra for the best portions of the DX bands / windows.

Hmmmmmmmm.
Posted by KY6R on 2003-09-09

CW

NO! NO! NO! Not this subject again!
Posted by W6EZ on 2003-09-09

CW

YES! YES! YES! This subject again! ;-}

Just read the survey question! ;-}

73 KG5JJ (Mike) ;-}
Posted by KG5JJ on 2003-09-09