Survey Comments
CC&R'S?
A GOOD WAY FOR YOUR NEIGHBORS TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO ON PROPERTY YOU BOUGHT AND ARE PAYING YOUR DEAREST BLOOD FOR. WHAT AN INSULT IN THIS DAY AND AGE! WE TOLERATE A LOT OF INTERFERENCE FROM NOSEY NEIGHBORS THESE DAYS AND CC&R'S JUST ABSOLUTELY TAKE THE CAKE. AS ROBERT A. HENLEIN ONCE SAID "FREEDOM BEGINS WHEN YOU TELL MRS. GRUNDY TO GO TO HELL" MRS. GRUNDY IS THE CHARACTER WHICH COMBINES THE NOSIEST, MOST IRRITATING, AND MOST INSULTING PERSON YOU COULD EVER MEET. SO AFTER YOU READ THIS, BE SURE TO TELL MRS. GRUNDY TO GO TO THE PLACE SHE RICHLY DESERVES TO BE IN!
Posted by
KA2HLW on 2004-08-08
Dealing with CC&Rs
The recent articles in CQ about the increasing legal and political power of homeowners associations give reason for concern. For many people, the option of moving gets harder and harder because available homes in their area are also covered by HOAs with restrictive CC&Rs. So often the answer is to get creative. Believe it or not, it's fun trying to design and install a stealth antenna, particularly if it ends up working well. In my case, I've found using an outside autotuner/coupler at the antenna allows me to load up just about anything. I got on all HF bands with an end-fed random wire sloper (3' at the tuner end, almost 25' at the other end) since the property has enough trees and landscaping to hide the 26 gauge wire. Key to performance are two "radials" under this low wire. Works great on 160/80/40, NVIS on the other bands. Fun to build and use. .... But I think HOAs will make it increasingly difficult for more and more Hams to have any kind of external antenna. Maybe when/if ARRL gets past the current BPL threat, they should start focusing on getting FCC to apply PRB-1 (right of everyone to mount reasonable video receive antennas, regardless of CC&Rs) to Ham antennas.
Posted by
K0ZXU on 2004-05-25
How about..
How about "Not yet, but it's on my list of things to do"?
8-)
Posted by
N0XAS on 2004-05-13
CC&R's
My subdivision's deed restrictions do not mention antennas. However, I'm in Section I. Sections II through VIII have increasingly restrictive antenna conditions.
Unfortunately for me I have too many trees on the lot to use a beam. My vertical and my dipole will have to do (got DXCC).
Posted by
AB5XZ on 2004-05-10
One solution
A 12 gauge will solve alot of CC&R problems!
Posted by
NE0P on 2004-04-24
CC&R's
I use a rain gutter coax fed. I feed the downspout with coax and a small ground rod for the braid, and us a tuner in the shack. It loads great on 40-10mtrs.WA8KOQ
Posted by
WA8KOQ on 2004-04-24
MobileHome Park hamming
I've been in a mobilehome park since 1991. When I moved in, the park rules prohibited Transmitting. (likely a reaction to CB'ers in olden days with amps). I laid very low, and just put up a 40 meter Isotron. My wife and I talked with park management, which changed twice in a few years. Disaster preparedness became a hot topic. We let park management know we had a generator that could power our home and station. The park rules and leases were re-written about 7 years ago, and now there is nothing said in the rules about antennas OR transmitting. If there are any problems, they're dealt with individually. I've got a discone on a pole 10 feet above the roof, two magmounts with triple hustler resonators, and a KLM CP14 beam on a rotator about 7 feet above the roof. No problems, no complaints. My nearest neighbor says his TV reception is better in the end of his house closest to my antennas. My antennas are limited by the geometry of my home and lot, and I keep my power under 100 watts (with inefficient HF antennas, real QRP is a waste of time - the antennas turn 100 watts into QRP!) On VHF/UHF, I do fine. If I want to, I can hit 1.2Ghz repeaters with a HT into my discone.
Posted by
KQ6Q on 2004-04-22
antenna restrictions
IF you dont want the restrictions - like pink mailboxes crap - then DONT BUY their stupid PRODUCT - MOVE - live elsewhere - and FIGHT.
Posted by
W9CGI on 2004-04-22
Real Estate Agents
K3UD said:
>>There have been some posts here concerning the knolwedge, or lack of it, of real estate agents when it concerns CC&Rs. A real estate agent is suppossed to funtcion as a buyers representative in real estate transactions.<<
Maybe. Real estate brokers represent SELLERS. In my area real estate agents (Realtors (tm)) typically purport to represent sellers, also. Sometimes they will ask your permission to represent BOTH the seller and the buyer. Just say "No." It is a conflict of interest, but permitted in some places. A "buyer's agent" represents the buyer. I recommend you ALWAYS have a buyer's agent represent you.
BUT, real estate agents are not attorneys. Read your paperwork, they typically profess to make no personal representations. They pass along only what they are told.
I have represented buyers, sellers, banks and real estate brokers and agents in court in several lawsuits over the condition of houses and/or the circumstances of a sale/purchase. I've never seen a real estate agent held responsible for an error or misunderstanding. I'm sure it's happened somewhere. I just never seen it, because they are more akin to couriers of information than guarantors of its correctness.
I personally believe that using a buyers agent is well worth the cost. But understand their limits. You wouldn't ask a physician's clerk to remove your appendix. You shouldn't ask a real estate agent for a legal opinion. Both the clerk and the agent perform valuable services, they are just not the appropriate entity for the service needed.
Dan, K8WV
ARRL VC
Posted by
K8WV on 2004-04-21
CC&Rs: one more comment
I too have been amazed that so many people (hams and nonhams) freely sign away so many of their rights as property owners and place themselves under some kind of arbitrary rule by committee, which may make decisions with no input, in secret, and because you signed a contract, you are bound to. And the people who usually get on these committees are the ones with a kind of pathological desire to micromanage the neighborhood according to their world view.
My rule is that as long as my neighbors are not endangering my life and property (making a bomb next door for example) they can do whatever they want. I have been blessed with neighbors who so far seem to live by this rule also.
Posted by
K5UJ on 2004-04-21
Agents
K8WV, I agree with you entirely. Having bought 16 and sold 15 homes over the past several years on both coasts, I have more than the usual amount of experience in this, and am getting pretty good at it. 'Sfar as I'm concerned, the agents are SELLER representatives, period. And frequently, not very good ones. I'm sure requirements vary by locale, but where I've lived so far, obtaining a realtor license isn't a difficult task; my ex-wife enrolled in a course at the local college, bought the book, skipped all the classes, and showed up the last day to take the test, and passed with flying colors. Is she now a real estate expert? Not by a long shot. Hardly a week goes by that I don't point out vital information to her that's not covered in any exam. Most of the agents I come across work in R/E part-time, or only when the market's hot (seller's market), and then go do something else. I've found many agents who have no idea how large an acre is, or how to operate a garage door opener locally, or how to unlock a vertical deadbolt from sliding patio doors -- all kinds of stuff that my kids have known since they were aged in single-digits. WB2WIK/6
Posted by
WB2WIK on 2004-04-21
While many CCR's may restrict "amateur" antennas, one might consider putting up a TV antenna as an alternative to subscribing for cable TV service. The "No Antenna's Allowed" restriction is unenforceable by law.
You are permitted by law to choose the method of reception for local media broadcasts. In fact you are permitted to choose both methods of reception if you so desire. After all, what happens if the cable goes out?
47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000 Federal premption law prohibits anyone including HOA's, Condo's Assoc. etc. from preventing anyone from erecting a "Yagi" style of TV antenna for the purpose of reception of local media broadcasting signals.
Hence, you are permitted to install an outdoor TV antenna structure regardless of what any agreement written might say.
This federal law is not PRB-1. PRB-1 relates specifically to the installation of Amateur Radio antennas and is not covered under this section.
TV antennas may often resemble the appearance of the many VHF/UHF amateur radio antennas sold on the market today.
Be sure that your HOA are not confused by the similarity of the TV antennas design or structural appearance of your TV antenna to your VHF/ UHF amateur radio antenna. -
Your HOA or condo assoc. may not understand that your "TV" antenna structure is exempt from any restrictions. It would be illegal for them to enforce such compliance activity for your TV viewing pleasure.
The federal preemption law is for the purpose of maintaining a TV antenna structure for media reception at your home.
The federal rule 47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000 prohibits restrictions that impair a person's ability to install, maintain, or use an antenna covered by the rule. The rule applies to state or local laws or regulations, including zoning, land-use or building regulations, private covenants, homeowners' association rules, condominium or cooperative association restrictions, lease restrictions, or similar restrictions on property within the exclusive use or control of the antenna user where the user has an ownership or leasehold interest in the property.
More information about the premption law for "TV" antenna structures can be found here.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=47&PART=1&SECTION=4000&TYPE=TEXT
Posted by
KC8VWM on 2004-04-20
CC&R's
Before my wife and I purchased our present home, we carefully reviewed the CC&R's and the word antenna is not even mentioned. Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me! Our former home was on a typical suburban postage stamp size city lot so my only HF antenna was a Cushcraft R7 vertical. Naturally, I had my R7 planted in the ground within a few days after moving in.
To make a very long story short, our subdivision only has 15 homes all on 3 acre lots. One Saturday afternoon there was a knock on our front door from the president of the homeowners association. She had a petition signed by the other 14 homeowners the purpose of which was to add a new section to the CC&R's stating that all outdoor antennas were prohibited except for satellite dishes 18" in diameter or less.
I informed them that this was illegal given the FCC's OTARD (Over The Air Reception Device) rule as mentioned in an earlier post. They went ahead and added it anyway.
I then asked the president of the homeowners association what she called her father's father? She answered, "grandfather"! I informed her that this new section of the CC&R's only prevented me from putting up any new antennas because there were no restrictions in place when I installed my R7.
The bottom line here is that moving to a community with no antenna restrictions does not guarantee you absolute free reign because those in power (if you want to call being president of a homeowners association be powerful) can always change the rules in the middle of the game!
Scott NØIU
Posted by
N0IU on 2004-04-20
CC&R's
I found it easy to hide my antennas, and the neighbors around me do not mind them anyway. It is the neighborhood council, which is dominated by the realtor that would have a problem with my antenna system. I believe that they want control over outside details so that they can sell more lots.
Posted by
KW4J on 2004-04-20
Liability of Real Estate Agent
There have been some posts here concerning the knolwedge, or lack of it, of real estate agents when it concerns CC&Rs. A real estate agent is suppossed to funtcion as a buyers representative in real estate transactions. He or she IS the professional while most buyers are not well versed in the tangle of real estate transactions, especially when it comes to CC&Rs. If a real estate agent is asked by the buyer about CC&Rs specifically relating to antennas or other activities the buyer will be engaged in, and the agent assures him or her that it would not be a problem, would there be some legal recourse against the agent and/or the realty company if what the agent told the buyer was in fact wrong? If this was a realty company/agent who had been retained by the developer of the subdivision, could there also be action against the developer?
We see lawyers and doctors sued (and losing) for malpractice quite a bit. I don't see where it would much different if it involved a real estate agent as all of these people are professionals who use their knowledge to guide the decisions of other people when they do not know the subject matter themselves. As far as damages, what is it worth to lose the ability to engage in a lifelong hobby whether it be ham radio, dog showing, woorworking, astronomy using an observatory structure, being a musician (noise) or other activities that someone could consider bothersome?
73
George
K3UD
Posted by
K3UD on 2004-04-20
CC&Rs
Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions (CC&R) can be both good and bad. CC&Rs, when properly developed can preclude someone moving next door to you that will as a result of laziness or dimwittedness reduce the market value of your home or neighborhood. You have seen it, a nice well kept home next door to a garbage pit.
Unfortunately, the creators of CC&Rs often go too far in developing inane rules just to make sure everything is covered. As pointed out by others, they can go so far as to dictate the color of your house, the type of roof you have, the kind of fence or even if you can put up a fence. Well, the list can go on and on. Most CC&Rs prohibit outside antennas except for TV reception. A few even try to regulate that.
I often wondered why the restrictions on antennas? While househunting in Northern Idaho some years ago we spotted a nice new neighborhood and spoke with the sales rep in the model home. I inquired into the antenna situation. She asked, "What kind of antenna?" I obliged and stated, " A ham radio antenna". Her response, "We have doctors, lawyers and professionals that live here and we can't have such annoyances here". I laughed and walked away.
I have found that Real Estate agents are largely ingnorant concerning ham radio and antennas. They will show you properties in deep valleys or those surrounded by power lines, etc. When you mention CC&Rs, all they seem to come up with is what color will the antenna be?
Hire a lawyer to completely and thoroughly review your transaction before you sign on the dotted line! This makes good sense not only from the ham radio aspect but just in general. f you are serious about operating ham radio it will be well worth the investment.
73
Posted by
W7RJR on 2004-04-20
CC&Rs and society
CC&Rs are all about gratifying the need some people have today to find a sense of security in being able to control others. Some people are disturbed at the idea that some things are beyond their control in life. They compensate for that by developing a false sense of security by bossing around their neighbors among other things.
They lead empty lives in which they have no constructive activities other than the mindless viewing of television--note the success of the moronic "reality" tv shows. Casting about for something to do, they seize the cause of dismantling the neighbor's antennas and live for that. Life is so much easier when you can focus on someone else's and forget about yours.
Their justification is lowered property values but this in reality only reveals their own investment incompetence. Many new homeowners are in way over their heads on their mortgages. They must have the huge house and SUV to impress everyone with. With the mortgage, insurance and taxes eating up as much as half their income, they have nothing left for savings or other investments--it's all sunk in the house.
When a ham puts up a tower next door these people freak out. But a home, like any other investment is subject to the uncertainties of life--whether it's a tower, church, shelter, parking lot, five story apartment building or what have you going in next door--and a wise investor knows to spread his income around finding a balance between home, savings, stocks, bonds, and other vehicles to compensate for the risks of owning property. People who fail to keep housing costs to no more than 25% of income, a long standing financial management rule are exposing themselves to excessive risk. These are the people who are most likely to blame the ham for their own financial incompetance.
Posted by
K5UJ on 2004-04-20
sound's like socialism to me..
I may be out in left field so to speak but i would never give up my personal right's to mob rule.....at least that is how i view cc&r's....
Posted by
FORMER_K0PD on 2004-04-20
CC&R's
One rather new subdivision in our town has gone crazy with their covenants. The covenant group got into an argument with a neighborhood resident, the Mother of a Marine serving in Iraq. She had been flying her Son’s Marine unit flag beside an American flag on either side of her garage door. The covenant watchdogs wanted the Marine flag taken down. She finial won out but only after much trouble and money for a lawyer. It’s obvious that these covenants and their protectors can get really out of hand.
-Roger WB9JXE
Posted by
WB9JXE on 2004-04-19
CC&R's
I had the misfortune of building a new home in 1976 that had CC&R's. I wasn't aware of it or it's restrictions until after I had moved in. All I was told was that there was a Neighborhood Association every home owner had to belong to and the due's were X amount of $ per month. I put up a beam antenna and was legally forced to take it down. There wasn't any escape clause or exceptions in the covenants. Nothing could be parked in your driveway overnight except your car. I had a white cedar fence installed around my back yard and was confronted by the Associations Grounds Committee to either remove it or submit plans to them for their approval. Even the color of your house could not be changed without their approval. The restrictions were endless and oppressive. Needless to say, I was out of that house and into another within 14 months. I got a written guarantee from the developer, that there weren't any CC&R's in the developement and I would be grandfathered if any ever came up. None have since I moved in 1977.
Posted by
K0KAV on 2004-04-19
Not Enforced
Our CC&R's are a joke. There are blatant violations all over our neighborhood.
Examples:
1. No Pools - there are at least 4 I know of. One is right next door.
2. No fences - just about everyone has one (including me).
3. No playground equipment - it's all over the place.
4. No boats or trailers of any kind - a bunch of people have them.
5. No antennas - well, guess what.
Nobody has ever complained to me about my antennas. If they do, I certainly have a leg to stand on based on all of the other blatant violations that have never been enforced.
AJ3U
http://www.aj3u.com
Posted by
AJ3U on 2004-04-19
Pretty good survey
Now that 1599 people have voted (4/19/04 about 2:00PM PDT) and only 26% claim to have CC&Rs, with 63% claiming they have none and 11% being totally in the dark on the subject, this isn't bad. It's better than I'd expected, anyway.
Now what we need to do is devise a plan so that every active ham who has good outdoor antennas sells his home to another ham when he decides to move or become SK, and we could perpetuate our hobby. Assuming BPL doesn't wipe us out!
Posted by
WB2WIK on 2004-04-19
"I put in the purchase agreement words to the affect of "no antenna, no buy house." I also have it in writing from the developer. No problem here in a CCR restricted neighborhood."
But if there are antenna restrictions recorded in the deed of trust and on the title when everything is recorded ( and it may be there and NOT show up on the papers you sign ) you just may find that you will still not be able to errect any antenna no matter what the developer told you.
Check it out.
Posted by
W6EZ on 2004-04-17
We made sure that the house we purchased did not have any restrictions concerning antennas. The only problem we have had was the city trying to tell us that a 1986 CUCV (a military Blazer) was a junk vehicle just because it isn't registered or inspected. Some neighbor didn't like the 3/4 camoflauge truck parked in our driveway... must have thought it was evil :-) After pointing out that the law states the vehicle only has to run, they left us alone.
We now have a couple of dipoles up and a 4BTV. Working on getting a VHF/UHF vertical on the roof and possibly a tower. College Station, TX is great since they don't have very restrictive laws concerning towers. Now I wonder why all the neighbors are moving :-)
Posted by
W1AGG on 2004-04-17
Wrong
Unfortunately, K0MU's belief that one can't avoid CC&R simply by stating (in effect) that they don't apply to a transaction is incorrect. If it was true CC&R's would not be a problem.
CC&R's cannot be avoided without the unanimous written and recorded agreement of EVERYONE that owns property in the subdivision/development.
Unless your state or congress adopts a law prohibiting nad voiding restrictions in CC&R's affecting amateur radio or antennas, you're stuck.
It's not pleasant. But it a fact.
The only way to be absolutely sure you know the restrictions which may apply to property you're considering buying is to learn to do a basic real estate title search yourself. Then READ THEM. Even if read the copy of the covenants and or restrictions you may not understand them (even if you think you do).
Unfortunately, to be certain that understand what you've read, or that you've gotten good advice that you can rely on in court, you'll most likely have to hire your OWN attorney. Generally, the attorney (if any) that conducts the title examination and conducts or oversees the closing represents the bank or lending institution you've selected and NOT you. In fact, it is not uncommon at a closing to find, if you ask, that NO ONE represents you, the buyer. Even the real estate agent is typically a seller's agent, or represents both buyer and seller (dual representation). NO ONE AT THE CLOSING MAKES ANY MONEY UNLESS YOU BUY THE PROPERTY! Everyone there is motivated you urge you to just sign the documents. Everyone there has a conflict of interest with your interests.
Even if you have a "buyer's agent" don't assume a real estate agent understands CC&R's. Most know what they are, in general terms, but they DO NOT understand how they may affect you. CC&R's are written by attorneys at the request of the developer and are typically, but not always, set out in a specific document. They may be set out in a deed. These are legal documents with very specific form, structure and meaning. They are very much like contracts. Every term is important.
Unfortunately, even if you are affirmatively lied to about CC&R's and buy property you otherwise would not have bought, you may not be able to do anything about it. It can take years and thousands, and even tens of thousands of dollars to litigate such a matter. Even if you win you lose.
If amateur radio is important to you, and you absolutely want to enjoy it in your new home, get your own legal opinion about CC&R's from your own attorney. It will probably cost you a few hundred dollars, but you will have someone working for you who has YOUR interests at heart, and whose fee does not depend on the successful consumation of the sale.
This is not a casual opinion, and it is a harsh criticism of the entire process. But, I have been an attorney for nearly 27 years and practiced real estate law the entire time. My wife is a licensed real estate sales agent. Most real estate sales work just fine, and everyone walks away happy. But Hams have special needs and wants. Special caution is needed!
Posted by
K8WV on 2004-04-17
Wrong, part 2
The word "can't" in the first sentence of my last post should have been "can." Sorry!
"Unfortunately, K0MU's belief that one CAN avoid CC&R simply by stating (in effect) that they don't apply to a transaction is incorrect."
Posted by
K8WV on 2004-04-17
Agreement before purchasing
Before I purchased my home in a CC&R area, I went to the HOA CC&R meeting, purchase contract in hand, and said I wanted approval for a 55 foot tower and antenna, or I would not buy the house. They gave me permission. Problem solved.
73,
Joe
WD0M
Posted by
WD0M on 2004-04-17
move
i moved to a home on one acre with no ccr no hoa -while you are alive and healthy i recommend moving -the he_l with the dictators of hoas and cc&rs vote with your money and feet,
My neighbor has a dozen antennaes there is an rv in frony of my other neighbor and i can have ant antennae chickens and horses!
move now and live!
Posted by
N2CTZ on 2004-04-17
CC & R's
When 'they' start paying MY mortgage, then I might adhere to their policies. Kinda' like Chevy telling me that I can't put an antenna on my vehicle!
Posted by
SWANMAN on 2004-04-17
More info
You are right K8WV; consulting an attorney who is paid by fee is the best way to go and well worth the money. For brevity, I did not tell the whole story. My CCRs don't completely disallow external antennas. It states in the CCR that you need written permission from the CCR committee (who at the time was the developer). I did, in fact, engage an attorney in the matter who did the followup work with the Developer, and the committee did send the written permission. You are also correct that the CCR contains words to the effect of "majority of homeowner" are able to change Covenants. I do feel safe, however, that the antenna has been up for over 2 years because the CCR states that if no one complains to the comittee in one years time, you have permission by default.
Posted by
K0MU on 2004-04-17
CC&Rs
I would never own a residence subject to the will of others beyond the local tax burden.
Posted by
JAMES_BENEDICT_EX_N8FVJ on 2004-04-16
Laws = fool's paradise
>>>Scott, I've seen you write the comment before about the noisy neighbor and evidently where you live there aren't any ordinances regarding noise abatement or disturbing the peace. Such laws exist in most places, including everywhere I've ever lived. We don't need CC&Rs to regulate peace, since restrictions are already in place in the form of ordinances, enforceable by police and the courts, here. If that would be anyone's motivation for actually wanting to live with covenants, we're in worse shape than I thought.<<<
Laws are great, but only if they are enforced or enforceable. In this case, the laws where I live (Knoxville, TN) were a combination of vaguely worded city codes and non-enforcement of them, mixed in with an indifferent and incompetent city codes enforcement staff and a good-ol-boy police department. My complaints to the city of Knoxville eventually led to the firing of one city codes enforcement employee, the resignation of city development director Doug Berry (also head of the codes enforcement department) following a red-faced screaming confrontation between myself and Mr. Berry at a city-sponsored function with media and the mayor of Knoxville present, multiple phone calls from the mayor's office and chief of police and the eventual (two years after this ended) change of some of the wording of city codes regarding storage and use of motor vehicles on private property. I have a more than healthy respect for what private convenants can do to put an end to problems amongst neighbors rather than relying on law enforcement to do so. My neighbors and I called the police 70 times in 4 years on these people; I obtained all the 911 records when myself and another neighbor were in the prcoess of retaining an attorney to sue. It never came to anything - the other neighbor died of a heart attack after a confrontation with these people one morning. I still live in the same house, but "someday" I am sure I will move - and when that day comes, I will not hesitate for a minute to buy a house in a CCRed subdivision. I can't even begin to describe how it felt to buy my first house and not be able to go out into my backyard for the first four years I lived there because of the noise and the threats of physical violence that ensued any time I either called the police or just went over there and told them to shut the hell up.
CCR's now and forever - any interest in ham radio I have will never trump safety and peace and quiet for me and my family.
Posted by
W4PA on 2004-04-16
Sad story
Interesting, sad story, Scott. But your experience sure isn't the norm. Then, if we call "911" around here with a neighbor complaint, that neighbor better be holding a loaded weapon when the police arrive, because this is a nuisance call that is not allowed as a 911 Emergency. However, in civilized places (evidently not your area), police routinely enforce peace rules. Here in Los Angeles, Disturbing the Peace rules are strict and strongly enforced; to the extent that noise pollution from gasoline-engine leaf blowers are absolutely not allowed, anywhere (not because of the air pollution so much as the noise pollution). Someone working on truck engines without mufflers, generating as much noise as a leaf blower (maybe more) would be shut down within one day, maximum. It's sad that local code and enforcement thereof is so shabby in some parts of the U.S. that people have come to "rely" on covenants to protect themselves. Very sad. I'm glad I've never lived anyplace like that. WB2WIK/6
Posted by
WB2WIK on 2004-04-16
No CC&Rs but Unfriendly City
We have no CC&Rs in our 25-30 year old suburban subdivision. However, the city has adopted a fairly common ordinance which states antenna structures may not be placed more than 12 feet above the peak of the roof. So, I have 2 GME Quad Pods on the 2nd story roof of our house; one for 6 & 2 meter beams and the other for a Force-12 C4EXL, the latter which looks monsterous at a tad under 40 feet. The funny thing is that my 45 foot tall GAP Voyager vertical, according to the city, is not covered by the ordinance because it is not considered to be a "structure" because it has no footing (concrete base).
In a few years, I hope to retire to an ordinance and CC&R-free semi-rural environment "down south." In the meantime, my current setup works OK. Neighbors rarely complain because they occasionally park RVs in front of their homes for more than 72 hours per year (also illegal here). Live and let live, within reason!
Posted by
K8DXX on 2004-04-16
"Why would anyone knowingly buy a home in an area with CC&R's?" .... some places you have no choice. NOTHING new is being built where there are no CC&Rs.
Almost all property has something some where that tells the owner what thay can or cannot do.
Some of the clauses are illegal in today's modern world, like the ones that say you can only sell property to members of the white race (whatever that is) or that ownership canot be transfered to any non citizen. But these "rules" are part of the orgional deed and are on file somewhere, and have to remain there because they are part of the orgional deed and law requires all records to be kept.
But modern CC&Rs are just plain wrong. Imagine being told that you cannot park a pickup in your driveway. Or, you can only repaint your house if the "commitee" approves.
Posted by
W6EZ on 2004-04-16
CCRs - me smart
I put in the purchase agreement words to the affect of "no antenna, no buy house." I also have it in writing from the developer. No problem here in a CCR restricted neighborhood.
Posted by
K0MU on 2004-04-16
CC&R-HOA
I guess I just do not understand why any ham that wants to enjoy home base operations to the fullest would KNOWINGLY move into someplace that has HOA/CC&R restrictions. Now if your one of the hamshack on the belt type hams it wouldnt be a big thing. The FIRST thing I do when I plan to move is ask abt HOA's and CC&R's. THEN I look at the house/land. Just because its pretty doesnt mean that it a place I want to be. Lots of folks live in condos/apartments because its pretty or close to work. Sorry I dont have to live close to work if it means I cant enjoy my hobby.
73 Dan/NØFPE
Posted by
N0FPE on 2004-04-15
"Knowingly"
I've read here, on other boards, and also in the QST "Letters" section, that many hams have knowingly and very willingly purchased deed restricted properties, and think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.
That's a very short-sighted philosophy for me and you, but obviously not for everyone.
Posted by
WB2WIK on 2004-04-15
Perspectives
>>I've read here, on other boards, and also in the QST "Letters" section, that many hams have knowingly and very willingly purchased deed restricted properties, and think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. That's a very short-sighted philosophy for me and you, but obviously not for everyone.<<
Really depends on your perspective.
I bought a house in a non-CCR neighborhood in 1996. The neighbor behind my property built race car engines as a hobby. If you think TVI is annoying, try living next door to unmufflered 460 cubic inch truck engines being run every day, 100 feet away from your bedroom. For 4 years. After 4 years of fighting them over it, they finally moved away. I would never want myself or anyone else to be exposed to something like this again.
My next house will be in a CCR subdivision. I'll find a way to get antennas up; I always did when I was an apartment dweller.
My Dad (Extra class license holder) bought a house in '92 in a heavily CCRed neighborhood, on purpose. He wanted to live on a golf course more than he wanted a tower in the air, and has worked plenty of DX with 1000 watts and a vertical hidden in the woods over the past 12 years. Where there is a will, there is a way.
I note with interest that despite all the moaning over CCR's, that 66% of the respondents so far to this pole said they are not affected by them.
Posted by
W4PA on 2004-04-15
Race cars
Scott, I've seen you write the comment before about the noisy neighbor and evidently where you live there aren't any ordinances regarding noise abatement or disturbing the peace. Such laws exist in most places, including everywhere I've ever lived. We don't need CC&Rs to regulate peace, since restrictions are already in place in the form of ordinances, enforceable by police and the courts, here. If that would be anyone's motivation for actually wanting to live with covenants, we're in worse shape than I thought.
Posted by
WB2WIK on 2004-04-15
CC&R's
I've lived in apartments, and been able to operate HF and VHF. I've owned 2 houses. Main reason was to be able to do what I wanted to do with antennas. The last house I bought was 5 years ago. Once the school quality issue was handled to my satisfaction, the #2 issue on my list was antenna ordinances/CC&Rs/HOA. That would have been a deal breaker. The school issue narrowed the list of acceptable candidates, but the final choice of suburb I bought into was because of their attitude towards antennas. All it took was some research on my part, up front. Don't rely on anyone else. No one will look after your interests better than you will.
Posted by
N8AUC on 2004-04-15
CC&R
The best remedy is not to purchase a home where you will not be able to enjoy hobbies that are important to you.
Back a few years ago we became a blended famile with 4 teenagers, my wife with a baby on the way and a typical 3 bedroom subdivision ranch house with a large den that could be converted into two bedrooms.
We looked at much larger houses that would comfortably accomodate 7 people but gave up when we found that in almost every case, CC&Rs prohibited almost everything my wife and I enjoyed doing.
No antennas or believe it or not, transmitters. No more than a certain amount of pets and my wife shows dogs and has had good success at it. Neither of us wanted to give anything up.
It was pretty much the same in every subdivision we looked at but there were plenty of nice homes out in the county where the CC&Rs were primarily limited to livestock and crop production on residential lots. (Farming Community here) We could have also purchased in older subdivisions like our own.
In the end we chose to stay in our modest ranch house with no CC&Rs, converted the den and posted times for using the bathroom :) In 4 years the kids had grown and went off to college or were on their own.
My hamshack during those years was a custom built out building with windows and insulation. Something that was also not allowed by most of the CC&Rs we ran into.
Now there are three in the house, a $500 per month mortgage payment instead of a $1,800+ mortgage and I still have my tower, beams and wire antennas and a room devoted to the station. My wife has her own sewing and quilting room and continues to train dogs.
Sometimes you have to make a choice.
When I lived in an apartment complex which completely outlawed antennas, I used the continous aluminum guttering which ran over 200 feet and had a number of downspouts. A simple eye hook screwed into the guttering well off center, a very short piece of #14 insulated wire attached via alligator clip to the eye hook, a wide range tuner and relitively low power was all I needed to operate. There are ways!
73
George
K3uD
Posted by
K3UD on 2004-04-15
Good one, George!
Very smart. You followed the "Don't move...improve!" strategy which in many markets is far smarter than selling and buying.
You've improved your home's resale value for a small investment and can keep on the escalation curve it was already on, which is nearly impossible with a new home having covenants (statistically).
Good one!
Posted by
WB2WIK on 2004-04-15
REALTORs
K4BTN--few REALTORs know anything about amateur radio or understand the impact of CC&Rs on us. I formed a website (http://www.homes4hams.com) a few months ago to allow hams to find REALTORs (and other professionals) to help them find property that meets our needs.
GL es 73 de Tom, K4NR
Posted by
K4NR on 2004-04-15
CC&R Overseas
Here in EI, we don't have CC&R's, but we do have "Planning Permission" (roughly the same as zoning regulations in the US). In some areas these are highly enforced (due to neighbours that like satellite dishes but not "wires") and in other areas not at all (usually due to indifference on the part of neighbours). I believe the guidelines state that an aerial (antenna) can't be more than 6m (19') above the roof line of a private dwelling. And of course a mast (tower) requires planning (zoning) approval which will certainly draw objections from all and sundry who all ready subscribe to the NIMBY philosophy. I think the mobile phone companies have done more to restrict the efforts of hams to put up efficient antenna systems (in the form of planning restrictions) than any one other cause. Mention a 3 element tribander and all the public think of is "another cell phone mast". Do we need to work harder at raising the profile of ham radio??
Posted by
EI4VWI on 2004-04-14
CC&R's
The question doesn't describe my situation. I have an outside antenna that is not in violation of my CC&R's. My condo bylaws stipulate that I may not have anything protruding outside my apartment. As long as I keep anything of mine within the confines of my apartment, I'm not in violation of any rules. My screened-in balcony is considered part of my apartment. My antennas, including my 16-foot shortened 40m dipole is out on the balcony. It may not be as efficient as a full-size dipole, but it does the job better than an indoor antenna would. I can't use an amp because my control point is only 6-8 feet from the antenna. I run the stock 100W. You don't hear me complaining. Other hams have less to work with than I do. It has it's advantages. Maintenance is easy. I have no tower to climb and I don't have to go up on the roof. I'm also pretty safe from lightening strikes.
Posted by
AG4RQ on 2004-04-14
CC&R's
Why Buy in a CCR community?
Here is one example. I live just outside of a large metro area with all the big city problems of street crime, drugs, etc. that are now spilling into the suburbs . I travel on overnight trips frequently. I want a safe , clean, and decent place for my family to live.
The CCR community I live in is in the outer suburbs and is my answer.
It provides : a nice house that is within my target cost, a safe community with controlled access through a manned armed guard , no visitors without security clearance, clean homes and streets CCR enforced, clean tennis courts, golf course, multiple swimming pools, plus a nice community health club I have complete peace of mind that my kids are safe anywhere in the neighborhood. there is no no trash or graffitti. My house has a beautiful forest view. I have nice neighbors.
This is my choice : the best I can provide of my kids and wife vs. an antenna farm.
I do operate with stealth wires that are virtually invisible.
As they say, life is a series of compromises and choices.
73,Hank
Posted by
KD5MJJ on 2004-04-14
CC&R's
Until this year I lived on 5 acres with no CC&R's. When we looked for a new house we told the agent that CC&R areas were unacceptable, and not just because of ham radio. We have friends and relatives who live in CC&R areas; some like it, others hate it. CC&R police aren't likely to be the kind of people we would have liked to be around anyway. We found, with the help of a good agent, a half acre in an older neighborhood without CC&R's, with the best schools in the county (parish here), and good resale potential. So it can be done. Choosing to live in a place with CC&R's is a personal choice that some hams make. There are a lot worse aspects to CC&R's than antenna restrictions that go to the heart of some of our freedoms and systems of constitutionally elected public officials.
Posted by
N5LB on 2004-04-14
CC&R community
Here is what a CC&R community provides:
It is in the outer suburbs. It's a nice big house. It has controlled access through a manned armed guard so that undesirable people don't get in. No visitors without security clearance. The place is kept clean. There are sports facilities and an exercise center with equipment. Great views of the San Francisco Bay.
I have just described the California State Penitentary at San Quentin.
Posted by
AD7DB on 2004-04-14
CC&R's
No CC&R's here. We have 17towers,9wires, and 1.5kw on 160-70cm plus 1kw on 1.2ghz.
When we bought, we made sure cc&r's didn't exist for 10miles round.
Posted by
JKLOWING on 2004-04-14
Where are the No CC&R Properties
In the greater Charleston, SC area, there are virtually no properties within a reasonable driving distance (35 miles) or less of shopping, schools, workplaces, etc that are not encumbered by CC&Rs. ALL new construction comes with these entanglements. Existing house are often tied to historical districts or other restrictions. Saying 'just don't buy with CC&Rs' is a naive attitude that doesn't take in the realities of the world.
Dennis / KG4RUL
Posted by
KG4RUL on 2004-04-14
city ordinances = CC&R
I answered I was not subject to CC&Rs, but I do live in town on a small lot (maybe 110 feet corner to corner), which is a pretty good restriction in itself, especially when there are power lines down two sides of the property, and a street and very picky/nosey neighbor on the other two.
The city has an ordinance against any structure higher than 40 feet without a variance, and I must get a building inspection for a tower, if I want to put up 38 ft of 25G for example. I hope to find a ridge-top house in the city with a few tall trees. Then I'll go for a rooftop tripod, ground- and tree-mounted hf antennas, etc. It will work, and I can still stay within a couple of blocks of the city bus line.
Posted by
KT8K on 2004-04-14
Landlord
Well, I don't know what a CC&R is and it sounds like I couldn't afford one anyway, but I have this landlord who claims even my HT causes interferince with surounding TV, cellphone, telephone, AM/FM reception. Damn! whith only one watt of power and doing all that jamming, I am just waiting for the FCC to fine me HIHI!!
Rod KD7ZRO
Posted by
KD7ZRO on 2004-04-14
lots o' land
I live in the BIG city. Nice thing is I have almost an acre with trees all around. No CC&Rs but my neighbors have asked about my verticles. (they cant see the dipole from the front) I enjoy telling the stories of all the places around the work Ive talked with. I also make sure im not in anyones TV during primetime. So far, So good... I agree with the posts of those who choose to live in a CC&R neighborhood. Our area has is "hood" and I bet if I lived in a development, I would feel a bit more secure.Like the one post said, "its a small sacrafice for safty".
Posted by
KJ7XJ on 2004-04-14
Rotten CC&R's.....
Here in California, they are universal. Every house sale seems to have a 'boilerplate' paragraph that says, in essence, 'Hi sucker! Welcome to the Gulag.
The rules are simple... what's not mandatory is forbidden. Ve haft vays of making you comply!" All unpleasant, I might add.
My last two houses were ham radio challenged.
This time around I got wise, and crafty.
I have the usual CC&Rs that prohibit ALL outside antennas,now and forever more.
I have a hf tribander on a crank up tower and work DX. How did this come to pass?
Death wish? No, cuning and stealth. And that long forgotten tool - good public relations.
First, know thy neighbors. Know them well, Kiss the babies, solve local problems, and do as I did and get elected to the Board of Directors. Find friends to serve on the board with you (most people complain, but shy away from becoming 'officially involved")
Continue to kiss babies and help the LOL's take out the garbage on Wednesday at 6 AM.
Point out to the other Board members that their new satellite dishes are not in compliance with the 'restrictive' CC&R's. Offer to draft a codicil to the CC&Rs that grandfather in the dishes. Along with this, add a sentence that grandfathers in a 'hf antenna, not to exceed 30' on lot # (mine). This is the Moment of Truth. Best to invite them over for a BBQ and some vintage Chardonnay, and get their signatures over dessert.
I'm here to tell you it worked for me......
Next, (in my case) I purchased a FOrce 12 crank up tower and had it powder coated green
like the surrounding oak trees (Went to Sherwin Williams military paint specialist for this one) and did same to the Mosley tribander. It nests behind the chimmney and can't be seen at all by passers by.
I also keep my power levels to around 50 watts on SSB and 75 on CW. I don't work contests, but do chase DX. For the rare contact, I crank up the tower and the power and then go low profile again.
For two years this has worked for me. Being a 'good neighbor' pays dividends.
It may not last forever. If some malcontent takes a dislike to my dog, or a carefully groomed Board member chokes on a slice of
anchovy pizza and packs it in, I could be faced with a hostile takeover.
But for now, I have the sandbox to myself.
Life is good. "CQ DX......"
Posted by
K6USN on 2004-04-14
CCR
Thought I replied but don't see it. Sooo...
CC&Rs are by far and away the largest threat to the future of amateur radio. Yes, BPL is right up there as well. Though I can only speak of areas in Hawaii and Arizona, but it is nearly impossible to find land in any new development without antenna restrictions. In Hawaii we lived in a rather plain subdivision, not in a resort area (Hilo - 200 inches of rain a year!) and antennas were not allowed. We have land in a rural, though desirable area of the island of Hi, again CCR ...no transmission of any kind. Go figure. Here in Arizona (temporary QTH) we live 12 miles from a rural town, on 3.5 acres...no antennas allowed. They even fuss about highspeed internet access - wireless, we don't even have cable! I have a beige 4btv planted out side the house relatively hidden from view. it's been 1 month now, just waiting for the letter to come. Since I'm trying to sell, I guess I'll just put a tower in the pick up truck.
Those of you (most seem to be in 5 land) without CCR's consider yourself lucky. Unfortunately, with the number of lawyers we have out there, it is only a matter of time.
PS the 4btv is a great, really great, antenna. However, a nice LP would be better and much preferred by an old fart (relatively) who has waited many years to have that great station...only to be frustrated by CC&R's :)
Aloha,
Bill
AH6FC/7
Posted by
AH6FC on 2004-04-14
CC&Rs
No CC&Rs here, but city(Fullerton, Cal. DM13as) has some restrictions... Nothing to wave PRB1 in their faces, though. I have a vertical, a J-Pole and one discone, along with a Sat dish for DirecTV. Neighbors have not complained, other than a couple who were crabby old ham haters... I was able to smooth things over by inviting them to dinner and give some tutorials. Showed them my station and explained a few of the rudimentary "whys and wherefors"... Satisfied, they went home and did not complain again. Lucky me... Note, however, that my station is modest and I don't use any more than five watts of power.
I'm pretty sure that Sat dishes one meter and less in diameter are covered by OTARD (for those who are not aware of it); even in CC&R neighborhoods, a dish may not be prohibited. I could be wrong about the measurement...
Selling home in late 2004/early 2005, and we will NOT buy in a neighborhood with CC&Rs. Agent will really have to earn commission on our home buy. XYL is onboard, even though she has absolutely NO interest in ham radio.
Posted by
KF6HCD on 2004-04-14
Wandering off topic, but...
Since the discussion has wandered a bit, anyway:
Those who think there are no desirable properties without CC&Rs (and one respondant mentioned California specifically), nothing could be further from the truth. Actually, here in the L.A. area, where within 90 miles of me resides half the population of the most populated state in the country, by far the most desirable properties are covenant-free. They may be expensive, but that's a different issue.
Having lived in a "gated community" twice in my life, I firmly vow "never again." What a horrible way to live, at least for me and my family. We all detested it and couldn't wait to escape.
I have substantial data on resale value vs. coventants that indicates CC&R properties pretty much *never* appreciate as quickly as covenant-free ones, anywhere in the country. 3300 data points to date, and the base is growing.
But none of that solves the antenna restriction problem for our brethren hams, so keep on letting us all know how those with restrictions are doing with stealth installations and such -- we shall all benefit from that information.
Posted by
WB2WIK on 2004-04-14
cc&r's
I live in a suburb about 40 miles west of Chicago, but on a big lot in the 'old' part of town ... ( first surveyed in 1870).
NO restrictions except fairly reasonable municipal ones, the only covenant is with my next-door neighbor for our long, shared driveway ...
it's all the new construction stuff that has the contractual evil ...
i have 2 vhf/uhf verticals on the roof, a double G5RV (204 ft) in the treeline to the east, and generally no problems, as i have only low-power HF rig ( ... so far ... )
I guess I am trying to outline parts of a plan for buyers ... look in older sections of your area for un-encumbered property ...
anything newly developed out of farmland WILL have restrictive covenants of some kind ...
73 & good luck to all, & especially to the home-buyers reading this ... .
phil
Posted by
KC9DQQ on 2004-04-14
CC&Rs
I live in Northern Virginia in a CCR community. I suggest there's at least one important answer missing from this survey. It is - Yes, I live in a restricted CCR community but I have an antenna up and am just waiting for the antenna police to come visiting. There's little other choice around here.
73...Bill K3WA
Posted by
BILLAXELRODK3WA on 2004-04-14
CC&R's
Why would anyone knowingly buy a home in an area with CC&R's? No restrictions here in 5 land. I currently have 3 towers up, and half a dozen push-up poles. A neighbor to the west has, at last count, 11 towers up. Gotta love it!
KD7EZE/5
Posted by
KD7EZE on 2004-04-13
What is a CC&R?
Ok, I know I have been called dumb in other surveys and I may be showing that here but What is a CC&R? As far as I know the only restriction in my area is a tower must not exceed 60 feet in hight.
KD5ZJP
Posted by
KD5ZJP on 2004-04-13
CC&R's
Here in Northern Virginia there are a lot
of homeowner associations and restrictive
covenants that ban ham antennas. Many
counties require new developments to have
these restrictions.
73, Nickolaus E. Leggett, N3NL
Posted by
N3NL on 2004-04-13
CC&Rs
CC&Rs. Conditions, covenants and restrictions.
Posted by
KG6AMW on 2004-04-13
CC&R's
It is choppy up here in 1-Land. Some areas have restrictions, but for the most part, there are very few. Where I live, there are none, but it grows more and more popular as you move east in the state (towards Norwood, Boston, etc.)
Posted by
KB1FWN on 2004-04-13
Interesting topic
Interesting topic, but I'd rather know (maybe a different survey) "do you live with restrictive covenants at your primary residence?" And, "if so, are you still able to get on the air and operate?" And I guess one step further: "And if so, what do you use for antennas?"
Might provide some interesting insights, as well as more data regarding how pervasive CC&Rs really are. Based on this survey thus far (only a few respondants), 69% say they have no restrictions. I'd be interested to see what the percentage is after a hundred or more people respond. So, keep on writing, folks!
Posted by
WB2WIK on 2004-04-13
CC&R's
Bought the house on the top of the ridge, with all the BS CC&R's. Attic is 2400SQ Ft. and 17 ft high. Room for full sized 75 meter dipole, plus DX-EE dipole, plus 150-440 high gain vertical. All is well, no QRM, no BPL (so far) utilities underground, and can break most pile-up's with 1KW in the Attic. It's not hard, but you do have to know your stuff and how to place it to make it work.
Good Luck
Steve W4CNG with uncontrolled Yellow notice tag at the top of the ladder to the attic.
Posted by
W4CNG on 2004-04-13
I voted "I am not restricted by CC&R " but after thinking about it, The FAA enforces height and lighting restrictions. ;-)
Posted by
KD5VHF on 2004-04-13
Why?
Why would anyone knowingly buy a home in an area with CC&R's? Because in many parts of the country it is darn near impossible to fine a home that doesn't have CC&Rs. Of course if you've got the money to buy 10 acres out in the country and are willing to commute 2 hours to work then you have more options.
Posted by
AA4PB on 2004-04-13
I wish I had a dime for each time a real estate agent lied (and I don't use the word lightly) about there being no restrictions on ham radio antennas on a particular piece of property.
Once upon a time I heard about a town, Sterling, VA, that required large antennas be installed. Wonder if it's still true?
Posted by
K4TBN on 2004-04-13